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Which interface for MPC discussion would you prefer?
dev0
post Jun 10 2002, 05:50
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I think a text-based solution would be okay, but I prefer the Webbased Board solution....
In the end it's the content, which is important.
dev0
P.S.: Are there any good Newbie Introductions to mailinglist / news usage (quoting etc.). This would be important for newbiews, if HA really changes its discussion format.
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rocketsauce
post Jun 10 2002, 05:54
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It seems to me that if one of the goals of HA is to spread information about audio compression to the unenlightened masses (an assumption I'm making), changing something that might confuse or keep inexperienced users from coming and returning here doesn't make sense. Most people just want to find the info they're looking for quickly and easily. They aren't as interested in the "details" as many of those who read this forum on a daily basis.

Also, I don't think it's only the newbies who might be deterred. I would consider myself a pretty experienced user and have been online for quite a few years and, for what ever reasons, have <never> signed up for a mailing list or read a newsgroup. Reading the HA forums has become somewhat of an obsession for me lately, but if when I had first found this site I had needed to sign up for a mailing list, I most likely would have just moved on. Then I would probably still be making MP3s with MusicMatch instead of using Musepack.

Of course, now that I'm hooked I will follow wherever HA goes.

Rob
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Nexx9
post Jun 10 2002, 08:06
Post #28





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I'm mainly a lurker here, but I think kuniklo said it best: news, not a mailing list.

I believe there are other sites that do both Web and News for the same content.

No examples to give though; when an interesting news servers is specified I immediately point tin from a remote shell to it and never look back. I've got DSL, but I love text - it's what I read. Giving the user a choice of interfaces through News seems fair. Nex


(isn't GRC both? I point tin to it, but I believe they've got web boardy things too)
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Dibrom
post Jun 10 2002, 08:24
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The main reason for using a mailing list is that we already have the scripts written (well, 99% done) for a mailing list to vb gateway. If we were to go with usenet instead, that'd mean writing a whole new set...

Also, and I don't know this for fact, I think it would be more difficult and more costly to maintain a news server than to just run a mailing list.... Since HA is funded completely by myself, out of my own pockets and with no outside compensation, this is something to consider....
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cd-rw.org
post Jun 10 2002, 09:11
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Dibrom,

You cannot please them all. My forum has a very simple interface based on text-only and I have had few complaints about my forum being ugly. Only a few complaints, by H.A. staff mostly, but still.

So you can't please them all. Go visual and modem users complain. Go simplistic and xp-candyas*es start whining.

I presume that VBP supports themes? Make a ultra-simple theme for those who prefer it as an option.

I have used these pages with many browsers and I have never experienced any problems. Funny that these complaints come from the MusePack people, since their webpages are among the worst on the Internet: Ugly, unreadable, unusable.


--------------------
http://www.bitburners.com - We Burn a Bit
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chrisgeleven
post Jun 10 2002, 15:04
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Personally, I prefer a web based discussion because I can check it from anywhere (ie: school, home, work, friend's house when showing him how to use Musepack, etc.). For me, it would be much better to keep this site as a web based format.

As a web developer myself, I hate having to support older browsers, so i try to keep the page as simple as possible without too much fancy stuff. I try to avoid nesting tables too much to help older browsers (especially Netscape 4.x ones) so they don't choke when loading. I optimize the graphics as much as I can without losing quality so someone with even a 14.4 modem could download them in a reasonable amount of time. I use CSS whenever possible too for fonts (no ugly <font> tags, since they are officially depreciated by the W3C and really clutter up the HTML code) and so on.

I'm curious Dibrom, what browsers can supposedly view this web site? I would get rid of compatibility with any browsers older than the 4.x line if you haven't already. By using CSS for fonts, you could get rid of A TON of font tags (instead of <td><font blah blah blah blah.......> use <td class="text">, simple, effective, and fast). Optimize the graphics if you haven't already done so (you'd be surprised how much you can optimize a simple GIF file). See if you can break up some of these tables so a user can see parts of the web page while the rest is being downloaded/rendered.
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 10 2002, 15:32
Post #32


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QUOTE
Originally posted by cd-rw.org
Dibrom,

You cannot please them all. My forum has a very simple interface based on text-only and I have had few complaints about my forum being ugly. Only a few complaints, by H.A. staff mostly, but still.

So you can't please them all. Go visual and modem users complain. Go simplistic and xp-candyas*es start whining.

I presume that VBP supports themes? Make a ultra-simple theme for those who prefer it as an option.

I have used these pages with many browsers and I have never experienced any problems. Funny that these complaints come from the MusePack people, since their webpages are among the worst on the Internet: Ugly, unreadable, unusable.


I would find nearly all "Vote-Questions" are wrong. I do not use Linux XOR Windows,
but both, I'm not against a web based interface, but against a web ONLY interface.
I'm not using MP3 XOR MPC XOR Lossless, but have MP3 AND MPC AND Lossles
AND CD-Audio only. I'm listening Computer Audio, Radio, Tape deck, CD and TV.


--------------------
-- Frank Klemm
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chrisgeleven
post Jun 10 2002, 15:44
Post #33





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What would be neat if you decide to add a mailing list option is to have a daily digest (or just send each message separately in e-mail) of all the messages in a specific forum (say the Musepack forum), send it to whoever requests it. Include after each "post" a URL so someone could go directly to the web based thread of that particular discussion. Also, have a Reply URL with each message so someone could just click that and bring it to that thread's reply page. This way, people like Frank don't have to use the web page unless they have to reply to something...I'm sure that will greatly help his situation. He could even download his mail, disconnect the net, read it, have a text editor up, do all of the typing of replies to messages, reconnect and paste them into the appropiate pages. Would save him a lot of time and downloading.

Also maybe offer an option to not display automatically a thread in the reply page. Downloading a huge table full of rows and text takes a lot of time. Just offer an option if the person would like to see the thread while replying.
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Nexx9
post Jun 10 2002, 17:48
Post #34





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chrisgeleven: you can do the same with News by just telnetting to your shell account - from anywhere, and thence to any news server using the prg you're used to. Or by using a full ppp news client from anywhere, by just entering the server name.

Dibrom: quite right - I hadn't thought of the expense. Setting up a news server would set you back more, both in time and money.

Guess the best soln is to have a mailing list (with digest support) and let the rest of us keep using this Web board. That's fine with me. I'll stick with the Web in this case as I don't like mailing lists much. Nex
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chrisgeleven
post Jun 10 2002, 19:23
Post #35





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I know you can do the same with news, although personally I prefer mailing lists over news (and web based discussions over mailing lists) just because news is harder to setup initially and I would think that a mailing list would be easier to create (less time Dibrom has to spend on this).
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 10 2002, 20:04
Post #36


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QUOTE
Originally posted by chrisgeleven
What would be neat if you decide to add a mailing list option is to have a daily digest (or just send each message separately in e-mail) of all the messages in a specific forum (say the Musepack forum), send it to whoever requests it. Include after each "post" a URL so someone could go directly to the web based thread of that particular discussion. Also, have a Reply URL with each message so someone could just click that and bring it to that thread's reply page. This way, people like Frank don't have to use the web page unless they have to reply to something...I'm sure that will greatly help his situation. He could even download his mail, disconnect the net, read it, have a text editor up, do all of the typing of replies to messages, reconnect and paste them into the appropiate pages. Would save him a lot of time and downloading.

Also maybe offer an option to not display automatically a thread in the reply page. Downloading a huge table full of rows and text takes a lot of time. Just offer an option if the person would like to see the thread while replying.


Also a Top News mode would be nice for W3 based board. Who frequently polls
is more interested to see the 1 or 2 new posts at the top.

A "posts of the last 1h/2h/4h/6h/8h/10h/12h/24h" would be nice.


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-- Frank Klemm
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Jan S.
post Jun 10 2002, 20:09
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under forum there is "view new topics"
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Garf
post Jun 10 2002, 20:20
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Also 'Active topics' on the left of the front page...

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JohnV
post Jun 10 2002, 22:49
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Frank Klemm
A "posts of the last 1h/2h/4h/6h/8h/10h/12h/24h" would be nice.
active topics shows the 60 latest threads. I know it's probably not what you want, but check it out anyway.

As Garf said, you can find the link on the left side of the front page.


--------------------
Juha Laaksonheimo
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Frank Klemm
post Jun 11 2002, 01:00
Post #40


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QUOTE
Originally posted by JohnV
active topics shows the 60 latest threads. I know it's probably not what you want, but check it out anyway.

As Garf said, you can find the link on the left side of the front page.


if ( 0 == strcmp ( "topics", "articles" ) )
printf ( "Buy a new computern" );


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-- Frank Klemm
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JohnV
post Jun 11 2002, 02:31
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For me the interface of MPC discussion doesn't really matter anymore. I've had enough about MPC and will support formats with a future, like Ogg Vorbis.

The fun-factor has completely disappeared from the MPC regarding me, it's not the same like it used to be when Andree was around. Nowadays it's just... not fun.

In the future, if I want quality, I'll choose lossless. If I want good size/quality ratio, I'll choose MP3 or Vorbis. I want to help the format which will likely gain widespread acceptance among big masses, that is of course Vorbis.

In my opinion HA should just dump the MPC-forums and discussion and concentrate supporting the formats of the future: lossless, Vorbis, MP3 and AAC (as in .mp4 audio). Musepack has so small coverage overall that other parties can just as well handle the discussion etc. related to MPC.


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Juha Laaksonheimo
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Dibrom
post Jun 11 2002, 02:53
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Started a somewhat related thread here:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...19775#post19775

I really wonder how this bodes for the MPC community. Oh well.... at this point, I must admit that I'm starting to share some of JohnV's sentiments.

For quite awhile now, I've looked the other way in regards to how the project has been handled recently, and particularly how social interactions with the "active" developer have gone down... telling myself that as long as things were still getting done, and as long as there was still a community that it was alright.

I'm not sure what this recent development means to the community though, especially if it's not a public thing. And I find it particularly disheartening that many of the long time MPC supporters, such as myself, and some of those who really contributed heavily to the tuning of the codec back when Andree was still in control, such as JohnV, have been excluded from this recent development....
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TURBO
post Jun 11 2002, 04:34
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WHAT!!!!?. Frank dont give up!. MPC is one the best formats that my hearing ever sense. Let the music invade the algorithms of sound, in phases that only the highways of the future can decode. MPC means for me Music Path to the Cosmos. Keep the good work Frank!.
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rjamorim
post Jun 11 2002, 04:38
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QUOTE
Originally posted by TURBO
WHAT!!!!?. Frank dont give up!. 


Frank isn't giving up anything. smile.gif

He's just treating MPC users in a way they don't deserve: Kicking them away from the development process, and listening to only a few "31337" friends who have access to his secret mailing list.

That's a really sad state of affairs. The MPC community/scene/whatever seems to be fragmenting.

Regards;

Roberto.


--------------------
Get up-to-date binaries of Lame, AAC, Vorbis and much more at RareWares:
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Steve H
post Jun 11 2002, 05:52
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Why not just ask to reprint the mailing list on hydrogenaudio.org?

Really, the average user doesn't need to comment on the development process, but it would be nice to see what's going on every now and then.
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Garf
post Jun 11 2002, 08:36
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Frank Klemm


if ( 0 == strcmp ( "topics", "articles" ) )
    printf ( "Buy a new computern" );


It shows which threads had recently articles posted in. If you click on them, you go directly to the latest article in that thread, so it boilds down to what you were asking for.

--
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Artemis3
post Jun 13 2002, 01:46
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I live in a country where a typical 56k dialup connection costs about 50$ a month, and about the same amount for a 256k dsl if you are lucky enough to get it (coverage and availability is limited at best). Also, i have tried HA from an overcrowded 256K Frame Relay connection (which costs like 500$ a month) at some university building (with like 70 computers connected) and typical avg transfer times of, like. hmm... 0.8KB/sec.

Also iīm the kind of person who canīt stand the slowness of a graphical email client, and i typically use mutt for this job (that way i can process like 500 msgs a day).

I also happen to know about the newsgroup style system, and of course i am subscribed to many typical text only mailing lists.

Of course i have also used some other web/bbs style forums like HA (r3mix, /., debianplanet, and others).

I have lost internet for like 6 months, so i could only ocasionally read HA from public computers or at other people homes...

And in my opinion: I donīt see anything particulary wrong with HA style.

The other systems have their pros and cons, and i donīt see why people sometimes wants their only true way to be. I think that there is plenty for everyone.

So, why not simply start a mailing list?

I suppose its technically possible to make a web/bbs style system to also have a "mailing list mode"... hmm guess its only a matter of making such a system (or maybe there are some already?)

But, is it really that hard to use or get acoustomed to HA the way it is right now? I can understand some ppl could have different tastes, but i really donīt think its unusable the way it is now. In fact, HA is one of the few systems i can enjoy, even with its limitations.

Postpone? Save? Text?
Hmm... copy and paste maybe? how about using a text only browser? (should check with lynx, w3m and links, hehehe).

Ah well, just an opinion.


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