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DVD+Audio Creator, A new tool for enjoying HQ audio on DVD
evdberg
post Mar 8 2004, 21:55
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From the creator of DVD2one comes a new product called DVD+Audio Creator. In DVD+Audio Creator you find a tool that will change the way you listen to your favorite CD albums forever.

DVD+Audio is a DVD-Video compliant format, wich means that your normal standalone DVD player can play the DVD+Audio discs, no need to buy expensive new hardware.
You can create a disc containing multiple albums, compiled from your own normal CD-Audio disc,
but then in either high quality (up to PCM 96kHz/24bits) or high quantity (up to 45 hours MP2 at 192kbps) and thus bringing super-audio quality to any DVD player.

Please note that DVD+Audio should not be confused with DVD-Audio, for which you need a special player and discs!

A revolutionary precise resampling method and resolution enhancing method dramatically improves on the original CD sound quality. Detail, imaging and clarity are dramatically enhanced,
so that you can hear details you never heard before. Bass lines are deeper, rhythme sections become more transparant, voices are clearer.

DVD+Audio is not just any audio dithering or upsampling application, but a true revolution in sound processing!

More information can be found on our website, http://www.eximius.nl/ , aswell as a trial version of DVD+Audio Creator. This trial version allows you to try before you buy the software for 14 days with a maximum of 4 songs per title and 2 title's per volume.
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evdberg
post Mar 8 2004, 21:57
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I thought that in this section first a moderator of the board would evaluate the post before it was shown on the site in the validated news section. But it seems not the case. I hope I did not break any rules. Otherwise please remove this posting.

Erwin
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Outatime23
post Mar 8 2004, 22:04
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Sadly, only input of 44,1 kHz / 16 bit files is allowed in this software.
Why can't i simply burn my 24 bit / 96 kHz audio files coming from the
analogue inputs of my hi-resolution soundcard???
This would have been a great feature, as one would be able to listen to
self-recorded 24-bit files via hardware-devices, wich is not possible at the
moment if one doesn't have special hardware to play for example
CDs with 24/96 wav-files... anyway, they would hold only ~20 minutes
each disc. Same with wav-files on data-dvds... longer recording time,
but also kind-of unplayable on standard players.
Adding such a feature to your software would be a great innovation,
because if i have hi-res files... i don't need resampling..

Outatime
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evdberg
post Mar 8 2004, 22:06
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Actually, I will add more input formats in the future. It depends on what formats are asked for.
What format are you using for storing 96/24? WAV files?

Erwin

This post has been edited by evdberg: Mar 8 2004, 22:11
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Outatime23
post Mar 8 2004, 22:11
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Thanks for your really fast answer smile.gif
I thought it would be a worthy addition, as input and output format would be identical, so it shouldn't be much work to convert to lpcm.

Outatime

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i'll review this post tomorrow... have to go to bed now... wink.gif
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M
post Mar 8 2004, 22:21
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QUOTE (evdberg @ Mar 8 2004, 03:55 PM)
A revolutionary precise resampling method and resolution enhancing method dramatically improves on the original CD sound quality. Detail, imaging and clarity are dramatically enhanced, so that you can hear details you never heard before. Bass lines are deeper, rhythme sections become more transparant, voices are clearer.

Er, not to bash you too hard, but that sounds a little like undocumented propaganda (i.e., you've made a pretty fantastic claim, given that it implies such an improvement over the source material; the inference is that folks would prefer listening to your resampled versions over their original CDs), and therefore a violoation of TOS #8. Can you offer any support for this claim, other than your website and/or opinion?

Other than that, we understand that for DVD-Video compliance you must resample to something other than 44.1 kHz, since that is not allowed by the DVD-V specs. But there have been ways of successfully creating such DVD-Video compliant audio discs - as freeware - for a few years.

- M.
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evdberg
post Mar 8 2004, 22:39
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QUOTE
Can you offer any support for this claim, other than your website and/or opinion?


I recommend you try the trial version of the program and judge for yourself. Ofcourse testing should be done properly, not playing the DVD+Audio on a cheap DVD player while you play the original CD through a high-end CD player ... to give you an idea, one of our test players (for both the CD and DVD) was a Meridian 598, and the difference was very clear.

Erwin
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bond
post Mar 8 2004, 22:43
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so you claim that you can produce higher quality than the one on the source CD?


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evdberg
post Mar 8 2004, 22:57
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QUOTE
so you claim that you can produce higher quality than the one on the source CD?


Yes ! smile.gif
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CiTay
post Mar 9 2004, 03:52
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This is an example of something that won't make it to the portal, sorry. Moved to General Audio for now.
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Audible!
post Mar 9 2004, 04:26
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QUOTE
so you claim that you can produce higher quality than the one on the source CD?
Yes !


So basically this software is primarily capable of upsampling 16/44.1 content to 24/96 (or other) and putting it on a DVD? huh.gif

I'm not convinced that's useful in any way (particularly since you are "creating" data points by upsampling). Whether you feel that makes it sounds better to you personally or not, it is not more accurate to the source and so is pointless in my view.

Without the ability to directly input 24 bit or high sampling rate content I don't see how this particular piece of software is interesting or innovative. With it, you might have yourself something.
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dreamliner77
post Mar 9 2004, 04:49
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aw, c'mon roberto....

hugs?


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evdberg
post Mar 9 2004, 09:19
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I am quite disappointed by above reactions. Why does nobody simply put the trial version to the test? are you afraid that it actually might work?

Last year when I introduced DVD2one people were also shouting that it was impossible to compress a dvd-video in less than a half hour ... actually when I think of it, people were also afraid when they introduced the steam locomotive ... smile.gif

Erwin
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M
post Mar 9 2004, 10:10
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Erwin, many of us are quite disappointed by your continued unwillingness to acknowledge the questions that have been raised. Did you bother to read TOS #8? In essence, what it says is that since you are the one making claims, the burden of proof is on you.

Furthermore, it is not a matter of fear, but of justifiable skepticism which has sparked some of these comments. What you are claiming is that your resampled audio sounds "better" than the source from which it originates. While it is certainly possible for your resampled audio to sound "different" (depending on the method by which you have achieved the resampling), the term "better" is reserved as a subjective modifier until justified with proof. And in case you missed it the first time, the burden of proof is on you.

Lastly, given the aforementioned justifiable skepticism of members of this board regarding audio that sounds "different": You seem to have forgotten (or failed to notice) that many, if not a strong majority of folks here prize transparent reproduction and fidelity to the original when listening to or archiving their audio. If your software results in audio that sounds noticeably "different," you may have misjudged your audience. And assuming you are steadfast in your belief that we are mistaken, the burden of proof is still on you.

- M.
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GeSomeone
post Mar 9 2004, 11:00
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QUOTE (evdberg @ Mar 8 2004, 10:39 PM)
Ofcourse testing should be done properly, not playing the DVD+Audio on a cheap DVD player while you play the original CD through a high-end CD player ...

Hmm, my middle class CD-player (was 225,- at the time) is said to do oversampling to 192 KHz already. And that one sounds a lot better than the "el cheapo DVD player" (costing less than half the CD player) when playing Audio CD.
QUOTE
I am quite disappointed by above reactions. Why does nobody simply put the trial version to the test? are you afraid that it actually might work?
Yes, it a sceptic bunch here smile.gif , but for good reason. In this specific case the outcome would also depend a lot on the player (how it would handle the different bit rates/depths internally).

You were at least creative with the name DVD+Audio. I was beating my head on the keyboard, shouting "Oh no, not another standard" tongue.gif , So you had me smile.gif . Turns out to be DVD-Video without the picture. Maybe this is of use for some people, but almost any DVD player is able the play MP3 CDs which would be an easy alternative for most.


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Halcyon
post Mar 9 2004, 11:21
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I already know of good quality freeware 44.1kHz -> 48kHz upsamplers.

However, the product's PCM -> MP2 conversion could (in theory) be something that might work better than available freebies, no?

So, does anybody know which mp2 encoder implementation is the above software using?

And... if anybody has tried that part out of program?
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2Bdecided
post Mar 9 2004, 13:52
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I'm downloading it to see if it works at all with my drive, and to analyse what you're doing (but don't hold your breath for results - I have other things to do! wink.gif )

Anyway, on the website...

QUOTE
The heart of the program consists of two engines:

Extremely precise sample rate convertor. Resamples 44.1kHz CD-Audio to the 48kHz or 96kHz used on DVD.

Revolutionary resolution enhancement. Extends the 16 bit used on CD to the DVD compliant 24 bits.

Combining both engines, a DVD+Audio easily surpasses CD quality, and in the resulting sounds you can enjoy better imaging, clearer detail, deeper and tighter bass and a overal better sound experience.


("a overal"? Surely "an overall"!)

Surely decent resampling from 44.1kHz to 96kHz will generate 24-bit (or more - theoretically infinite) samples anyway - you don't need a separate process to "enhance" or "extend" from 16-bit to 24-bit?

If you really do have a separate process, then that's just adding noise. It's like taking a list of numbers: 2,4,6,8 and adding extra random decimal places: 2.7, 4.3, 6.9, 8.1. Very useful!

(Though if you're really smart, you'll actually know a reasonable justification for doing exactly this - so we'll see if you really know your stuff...)

One question: is this going to be better than resampling using Cool Edit Pro?

Cheers,
David.
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GeSomeone
post Mar 9 2004, 15:10
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Mar 9 2004, 01:52 PM)
One question: is this going to be better than resampling using Cool Edit Pro?

Or, for that matter, better than foobar2000 with resampler and 24 bit output ? wink.gif
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tigre
post Mar 9 2004, 15:30
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Evdberg, I'd like to test your software, but I'm not sure if I can because I don't have a DVD burner. I wasn't able to see on your homepage if your software creates some kind of image files on HDD that can be burned to DVD+/-R using any burning software (in this case I could test it) or if it uses its own burning engine to burn DVDs directly. (In this case - is writing mini DVDs (= CDs containing DVD-V layout AFAIK) supported?)


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Dimension
post Mar 9 2004, 16:36
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QUOTE (evdberg @ Mar 9 2004, 03:19 AM)
I am quite disappointed by above reactions. Why does nobody simply put the trial version to the test? are you afraid that it actually might work?

Erwin:

That's a pretty cool piece of software. The problem is your dubious claim of improving audio quality by resampling. Don't take the criticism too hard. People here understand perfectly well what you're talking about as far as converting the audio, and they're going to be picky. This forum is hardcore enough to have a huge lossless audio section, and you're talking about somewhat lossy transcoding.

I'm sure plenty people will still find a use for software that fits a ton of music on a DVD-R that will play on just about any DVD player, but I doubt many are on this forum. For the most part, newer DVD players which can reliably play any DVD-R media can also play MP3's on DVD-R. That does certainly lessen the utility of 192K MP2 audio when most people can play higher quality MP3 audio which also supports tags and is much more portable.

Looking at the capacity of a DVD-R, you can fit:
7.4 hours of raw WAV files
12 hours of lossless FLAC audio
33 hours of "--alt-preset insane" MP3's
54 hours of "--alt-preset standard" MP3's
60+ hours of AAC / MPC -Q5 / OGG -Q5

People putting music on DVD-R are either doing so for archival or to listen to the music on their DVD player. Transcoding is obviously right out as far as an archival solution. When it comes to listening to music on their DVD player, most people will probably choose to store the music as MP3 on a DVD-R because the files will then also be useful as a backup.
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Dimension
post Mar 9 2004, 16:39
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tigre:

I'd give it a try. If it's anything like DVD2One, you should be able to set an output size, and it'll just create a directory of VOB's that you can do what you want with.
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evdberg
post Mar 9 2004, 17:24
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tigre:

The program makes a dvd-video compliant fileset. The size is already calculated in advance, so you can make it to fit. The program does not have its own burning engine, you can burn the resulting fileset with the burning program of your choice.


dimension:

The program has 2 sides: high quality and high quantity mode. You are right that there are many alternatives for high quantity, so maybe the high quality is something for you?


Erwin
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2Bdecided
post Mar 9 2004, 17:56
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Didn't you like my questions? sad.gif

D.
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Hanky
post Mar 9 2004, 19:15
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QUOTE (Dimension @ Mar 9 2004, 04:36 PM)
For the most part, newer DVD players which can reliably play any DVD-R media can also play MP3's on DVD-R. 

I fully agree with Dimension. This fact makes the discussed software close to irrelevant. Even Ogg Vorbis support was added to new DVD players recently to provide another high quality alternative besides mp3.
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tigre
post Mar 9 2004, 20:17
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I tried the software. My interest is in upsampling-related claims mainly, because of this I've only created the VOB/IFO files on HDD, no (mini)DVD burned.
  • There's no installer, the .exe can be started from anywhere (but it writes entries to registry).
  • The default browser is used as GUI - it works and is quite easy to use.
  • I let the software create 24/96 PCM DVD files from some songs in .wav format ripped from CD. The 24/96 LPCM audio in the resulting VOB/IFO can be extracted with vstripGui and LPCM24 (-> rarewares) to 24/96 wav - as I have done it with a Chesky DVD-V with 24/96 audio before. Everything as expected so far.
  • I opened the 24/96.wav in a Hex editor to see if there's padding - nothing obvious visible (like every 3rd byte = 00).
  • Then I opened it in CoolEditPro. For comparison I upsampled the original CD .wav file to 24/96 with CEP highest qualtiy settings as well. This is how the result looks like in frequency view:

To save space one matching channel pasted to one image; the upper one is DVD+Audio Creator

There's clearly visible the ringing near cutoff frequency and > 22kHz distortion added. Looking at the zoomed waveform there were no "evil" resampling technics visible like "nearest neighbour" or "linear interpolation" though. Besides this, the DVD+Audio version is amplified to a little bit lower volume, something like -1dB compared to the original.

I don't see why this sub-optimal resampled version should sound better than the original. I wasn't able to hear any obvious differences (envy24ht based soundcard+Sennheiser headphones) and didn't want to spent time on ABXing - anyone interested can download the software and give it a try.

Anyway, I've been looking for a cheap/free software that can create DVD-V with 24/96 audio for some time. As said before, it would be nice if DVD+Audio Creator accepted 24/96 PCM .wav as input.


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