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A HA.org Sample Database?, thread split
Jan S.
post Feb 20 2004, 17:49
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 20 2004, 05:43 PM)
QUOTE (Jan S. @ Feb 20 2004, 02:38 PM)
Do you think BW would actually be a problem? If the files a spread around several hosts I find it hard to believe that the load would be very high.

I expect there will be bandwidth spikes whenever a developer calls for testing. (considering people will actually respond to the call this time). That could kill several of the small hosts.

Do ppl normally delete their samples after a round of testing?
I think that ppl that normally test encoder would already have samples or at least a lot of the usual samples. Should they not I don't think it will take too long before they have most of the samples. And if they want them all they can use torrent IMO.
I thought the biggest load would be when new problem samples are found.

But this is just guessing so I don't know who is right.

QUOTE
Why not keep it simple ?
Everyone could access the pages with informations for each sample.
Only developers could download directly samples.
Everyone else could download with torrents a package that is updated each week, or each month.

For those behind proxies, if they're not developpers, maybe some will host as mirrors the full package

Yes but do you think it is worth the effort to set up a system like that?
How often do you go hunting for test samples?
I simply don't understand if the load is gonna be that huge.
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danchr
post Feb 20 2004, 18:32
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QUOTE (Frank Klemm @ Feb 20 2004, 02:39 PM)
Task #3 is the WinAMP 2/3/5 plugin

Might I suggest that you consider having the necessary decoder portions extracted into a library? This way, you could have people less skilled with C and audio coding take care of the less complicated parts of writing a plug-in.
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g0a
post Feb 20 2004, 19:35
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I could do any php / database coding and host the site..
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Florian
post Feb 20 2004, 20:17
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I've just set up a basic listening test samples page.

~ Florian

Edit: changed url to point to the musepack site

This post has been edited by Ganymed: Aug 2 2004, 18:49


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music_man_mpc
post Feb 20 2004, 22:24
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QUOTE (Ganymed @ Feb 20 2004, 11:17 AM)
I've just set up a basic listening test samples page.

~ Florian

That is beautifuly setup! Seems to be exactly what was suggested thus far.


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Jan S.
post Feb 21 2004, 19:57
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ok. Since I really want to use the HA wiki for something useful I stole most of the idea from Ganymed and made a wiki page:

http://doc.hydrogenaudio.org/wikis/hydrogenaudio/TestSamples

What do you think?
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CiTay
post Feb 21 2004, 20:04
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Feb 21 2004, 07:57 PM)
ok. Since I really want to use the HA wiki for something useful I stole most of the idea from Ganymed and made a wiki page:

http://doc.hydrogenaudio.org/wikis/hydrogenaudio/TestSamples

What do you think?

Not bad. But i think it should look more structurized, maybe with a table or so.
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Volcano
post Feb 21 2004, 20:08
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QUOTE (Ganymed @ Feb 20 2004, 08:17 PM)
I've just set up a basic listening test samples page.

Very nice!

--

I can also offer to host some of the samples if need be. I'm currently using about 2 of the 50 GB of bandwidth I have available every month, and there's enough ample space on the server to host a fair amount of samples (I have 500 MB available, I suppose I could provide about 150 MB which already makes for about 50 samples).

Regards,

Dominic
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music_man_mpc
post Feb 21 2004, 22:23
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Hmmm I do have an unusual internet connection. DSL 1mbit/s upstream and unlimited upstream bandwidth (I am hardly using upstream at all right now). I could host all of the samples (3 or 4Gb of HD space is insignificant as far as I am concerned) on a FTP server, if no one minds the potenial instability of a Windows based system or if someone could give me some tips on setting up a Linux box I have a spare Pentium 200 laying around (if I can get it working).


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tigre
post Feb 22 2004, 00:01
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Feb 21 2004, 08:57 PM)
ok. Since I really want to use the HA wiki for something useful I stole most of the idea from Ganymed and made a wiki page:

http://doc.hydrogenaudio.org/wikis/hydrogenaudio/TestSamples

What do you think?

Looks good (Ganymed's suggestion too of course).

I've got an additional suggestion:
For me - and I assume for many other people who don't have English as their 1st language - it's sometimes hard to express artifacts I hear in (English) words, as well as it can be hard to understand others' descriptions.
Because of this a "Definitions" part of the database would be good, where words like "pre-echo", "smearing", "ringing" are explained and linked to obvious examples.


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Jan S.
post Feb 22 2004, 00:09
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 22 2004, 12:01 AM)
QUOTE (Jan S. @ Feb 21 2004, 08:57 PM)
ok. Since I really want to use the HA wiki for something useful I stole most of the idea from Ganymed and made a wiki page:

http://doc.hydrogenaudio.org/wikis/hydrogenaudio/TestSamples

What do you think?

Looks good (Ganymed's suggestion too of course).

I've got an additional suggestion:
For me - and I assume for many other people who don't have English as their 1st language - it's sometimes hard to express artifacts I hear in (English) words, as well as it can be hard to understand others' descriptions.
Because of this a "Definitions" part of the database would be good, where words like "pre-echo", "smearing", "ringing" are explained and linked to obvious examples.

These definitions should be found at the GlossaryPage where some already are (they seem to be very technical explanations ATM though).
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Frank Klemm
post Feb 22 2004, 04:24
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QUOTE (Seed @ Feb 20 2004, 06:34 PM)
I meant that all collected samples must be compressed, and this is why AIFF should
not be accepted. I've been using this file format for 13 years, so I know very well
what it is, kthx.

dev0's suggestion is perfect. FLAC is the one file format everyone can deal with and
it offers decent compression ratios.

AIFF = Audio Interchange File Format
Typical extentions: AIF, AIFF, (AIFC)
Big Endian
Audio Container format of Apple Macintosh-Computers.

RIFF = Ressource Interchange File Format
Typical extentions: WAV, AVI, RIFF, RIF
Little Endian
Container format of Microsoft-PC

In both formats you can store everything from G.723 to uncompressed 64 channel, 24 bit, 192 kHz audio.


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westgroveg
post Feb 22 2004, 06:09
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I think it would be useful to categorize problem samples by format/encoder, so if one was looking for MPC, 1.14b problem samples they could go directly to the MPC section.
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dev0
post Feb 22 2004, 10:07
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 22 2004, 12:01 AM)
I've got an additional suggestion:
For me - and I assume for many other people who don't have English as their 1st language - it's sometimes hard to express artifacts I hear in (English) words, as well as it can be hard to understand others' descriptions.
Because of this a "Definitions" part of the database would be good, where words like "pre-echo", "smearing", "ringing" are explained and linked to obvious examples.

ff123's training page has always been a great help for me.


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dev0
post Feb 23 2004, 09:45
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Are there any more oppinions regarding Wiki-based vs. Web-based?

I really like Ganymed's draft and it comes reasonably close to what I imagined, but before work on it can continue we have to decide on one solution.


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ChristianHJW
post Feb 23 2004, 10:22
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I checked with Atomic, and he is ok about using his server for these samples, as long as the URL is not made public ( he is fearing legal problems about content distribution ).

This gives us a fast server with plenty of space, and from one single location. Jan S. if you want to maintain this sample page, please contact me via PM or on IRC ( hard to get hold of me lately, sorry about that ).....


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Jan S.
post Feb 23 2004, 14:21
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QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 23 2004, 10:22 AM)
Jan S. if you want to maintain this sample page, please contact me via PM or on IRC ( hard to get hold of me lately, sorry about that ).....

No I am not interested in anything not within the framework of HA.
I want to use the wiki as much as possible but everybody else seems to dislike it.
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SacRat
post Feb 24 2004, 07:39
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A centralized sample archive is definitely a good idea.
If it's created I could submit a couple of samples I used for myself.
So is there anyone, willing to maintain such a thing?


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ChristianHJW
post Feb 25 2004, 01:47
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QUOTE (SacRat @ Feb 24 2004, 06:39 AM)
A centralized sample archive is definitely a good idea.
If it's created I could submit a couple of samples I used for myself.
So is there anyone, willing to maintain such a thing?

Well, we are currently searching for a volunteer for this. Jan S. seems to be only available if MPC becomes a Hydrogenaudio Project, which will not be the case. I personally believe HA.org should be a neutral place, and not show any tendencies or support for a specific format, but oh well ......


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joey_m
post Feb 25 2004, 01:59
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I think Jan S. was only referring to the samples database, not MPC...

I've read the terms and conditions for my free hosting plan at 1and1, and as far as I can see, there would be no problem hosting some 200 MBytes of files (of course, I'm restricted by the 5 GB/month traffic limit), so if you guys are still in search for a few mirrors to distribute the load a bit, I'd be glad to help out.


Cheers, Joey.

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SacRat
post Feb 26 2004, 06:43
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Well, why not to try this idea:
create a site with a basic sample set, define submission and download rules (descriptions, etc...) and let it live itself. Kinda self-organizing smile.gif
Don't know if it would work, but it's a way better, than nothing...
btw, why MD5? I think, that ZIPing FLACs would work as well: you won't be able to extract corrupted files smile.gif


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mpcfiend
post Feb 26 2004, 07:43
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Simpler solution; link .torrents in the database, and have http/ftp downloads on a more-obscure page. Only those people who are serious about contributing will take the effort to look up the samples and download them from another page.


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robUx4
post Feb 26 2004, 15:22
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QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 25 2004, 01:47 AM)
Well, we are currently searching for a volunteer for this. Jan S. seems to be only available if MPC becomes a Hydrogenaudio Project, which will not be the case. I personally believe HA.org should be a neutral place, and not show any tendencies or support for a specific format, but oh well ......

This sample database is not MPC related, it concerns all audio codec development.

I'm surprised noone mentioned the copyright problem ! Most of these samples are not copyright free. And so you're not allowed to redistribute it without the approval of someone (maybe even asking for money).

I think we really should take this into account before making the list of samples available to the general public.

Also I suggest that there should be a little fee to access the download. Something that would probably cover the copyright costs. And maybe a license stating that you "agree to download the samples for personal testing purposes and not make it available to anyone else".

For the rest, we have the space. And a database + web interface to handle this should be quite easy. I can do it in PHP (any design proposal is welcomed) in a short time, be it hosted on HA or CoreCodec (PHP that can send emails would be good to inform subscribers when new samples are available). I have no knowledge of Wiki nor want to learn it wink.gif

Also for the other tasks, I plan to spend time on the XMMS and WinAmp plugins starting from Sunday.


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Jan S.
post Feb 26 2004, 16:00
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We already post samples here and as long as we only upload <30sec we don't think it is a problem. At least that is the policy of this forum.

Secondly would it be almost impossible to get the right to publish it?
I don't think you can compare it to playing the music at a public place but I don't know.
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rjamorim
post Feb 26 2004, 16:48
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QUOTE (Jan S. @ Feb 26 2004, 12:00 PM)
We already post samples here and as long as we only upload <30sec we don't think it is a problem. At least that is the policy of this forum.

That's OK, but even a 5 seconds sample contains music created by someone, therefore that sample is copyrighted.

I don't know the legality of distributing samples. When I do my tests, I send out the packages and hope noone will bitch. But I never read at some reliable place that the RIAA waives copyrights of samples smaller than 30 seconds for research or promotional purpose (I.E, Amazon).

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