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AAC @ 128kbps listening test discussion
ViPER1313
post Feb 16 2004, 08:01
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WOOT! The return of fatboy biggrin.gif - I don't want to hear anyone complaining about how all the codecs sound transparent on that one tongue.gif .
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Stux
post Feb 16 2004, 09:49
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QUOTE (karl_lillevold @ Feb 8 2004, 12:49 PM)
QUOTE (bond @ Feb 7 2004, 05:24 PM)
i also dont want that real with its .ra sh*t gets popular

RM is just another container format, playable in many players these days, but I have already mentioned that AAC wrapped in RM is just a temporary solution. Our alternative file writers were not ready in time for Beta. RealPlayer 10 Gold and RealProducer (Helix Producer) 10 Gold will write AAC to another format...

The Real (HE-)AAC encoder was licensed from Coding Technologies, is the only HE capable encoder in addition to Nero (CT did invent aacPlus/HE by the way), and their AAC base encoder probably started out from a similar codebase as the FhG AAC encoder. Personally I would be very curious how it compares to the rest of the AAC encoders out there. "Installing" Helix Producer is as simple as unzipping the files, and if included in the test, I will make sure Roberto has no trouble whatsoever with the encoding or installation (don't want to repeat trying to install RealPlayer.. smile.gif), as well as losslessly convert the .ra files to whichever format is preferred, .aac, or .m4a.

As a sidenote, I think it is a good idea to be very clear about which is the actual codec provider, for example for WinAmp, who did they license the encoder from? For Real, like I mentioned, this would be Coding Technologies.

I would *really* like to see Coding Technologies' AAC encoder in the listening test.

Either in the form of Real's implementation, or using CT's actual stand-alone encoder.

(I believe you can use Real Splitter+3ivx Muxer to convert from RM to MP4)


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Stux
post Feb 16 2004, 10:01
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QUOTE (Latexxx @ Feb 9 2004, 01:22 AM)
  • Nero
  • iTunes
  • Real
  • FAAC
  • Compaact
  • Anchor

I agree smile.gif


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Stux
post Feb 16 2004, 10:24
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 10 2004, 06:02 AM)
OK, now a fucker decided to mess my poll.

My patience is growing too thin, so I'll tell you what I plan to do:

-Compaact and Real are in
-Winamp is out because it seems to be broken, so it would be unfair to test it now.
-NCTU is in as an anchor.
-The test will be encrypted and will require Java ABC-HR.

Flames? Opinions? Comments?

BTW: Everything is discusseable, except encryption. It is definitely going to happen.

Regards;

Roberto.

Looking forward to the test... sorry for not reading through all the drama before initially replying sad.gif


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Stux
post Feb 16 2004, 10:51
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Re: Anchors,

I'm actually partial to a very simple lowpass or something, ie something to just make it at least *easy* to place the last contender...

Oh, that horid crackling sound... that's the bad bad one smile.gif


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Atlantis
post Feb 16 2004, 12:48
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Hi Roberto,
I'd like to see featured in this test a live recording sample like this one
smile.gif


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bond
post Feb 16 2004, 14:03
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what about including a speech sample with low volume music in the background (like a movie background)

this would satisfy the video nerds and would maybe make the comparsion between the codecs easier?


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 16:10
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QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 11:03 AM)
what about including a speech sample with low volume music in the background (like a movie background)

this would satisfy the video nerds and would maybe make the comparsion between the codecs easier?

No problem. But please provide the sample and suggest what sample should be replaced.

@Atlantis: Please suggest what should be replaced too.


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bond
post Feb 16 2004, 18:47
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 11:03 AM)
what about including a speech sample with low volume music in the background (like a movie background)

this would satisfy the video nerds and would maybe make the comparsion between the codecs easier?

No problem. But please provide the sample and suggest what sample should be replaced.

hm best would be a sample from a dts source (and maybe with english language biggrin.gif )

i can only provide a german ac3 source, if thats also ok?

what to replace? hm dunno, maybe waiting cause it was already used in the first aac test too? unsure.gif


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 18:53
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QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 03:47 PM)
i can only provide a german ac3 source, if thats also ok?

I would personally prefer LPCM...

QUOTE
what to replace? hm dunno, maybe waiting cause it was already used in the first aac test too?  unsure.gif


No, Waiting is perfect for killing samples tenderly. It must stay.


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bond
post Feb 16 2004, 19:48
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 03:47 PM)
i can only provide a german ac3 source, if thats also ok?

I would personally prefer LPCM...

hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound? i thought only ac3 and dts?


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 19:59
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QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 04:48 PM)
hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound?

I don't know. But I would prefer LPCM neverthless smile.gif

Of course, if it's not available, DTS would be the way to go. AC3 isn't a good idea considering it's already quite compressed.

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Feb 16 2004, 20:00


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Continuum
post Feb 16 2004, 20:59
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QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 07:48 PM)
hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound? i thought only ac3 and dts?

It is for Music DVDs. Maybe some opera recitative? biggrin.gif
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bond
post Feb 16 2004, 21:18
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QUOTE (Continuum @ Feb 16 2004, 08:59 PM)
Maybe some opera recitative?  biggrin.gif

laugh.gif

but serious, anyone having a nice dts source from a movie dvd?


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 21:30
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QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 06:18 PM)
but serious, anyone having a nice dts source from a movie dvd?

I only have from an Eagles concert. My only DVD with DTS sad.gif


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Atlantis
post Feb 16 2004, 21:32
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 05:10 PM)
@Atlantis: Please suggest what should be replaced too.

Uhm, I'm unsure about this...

Anyway, I think BigYellow could be replaced, in the 128 MP3 test all codecd were tied (except itunes implementation).

All is IMO, obviously wink.gif


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 22:57
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Hrm... your sample is interesting, but from hearing to it, it seems to be potentially very easy on codecs :/


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 23:10
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OK, some more replacement suggestions:

- Polonaise will no longer be replaced with Fossiles, but with Guruboolez' Brahms - Danse Hongroise 6. So it gets replaced by another piano sample.

- riteofspring will be replaced with Mahler - Symphonie 3, also submitted by Guruboolez.

Any comments? Tonight I'll freeze the samples list and start encoding/packing/uploading.

Thanks to Guruboolez for providing those samples.

Regards;

Roberto.

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Feb 16 2004, 23:13


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tigre
post Feb 16 2004, 23:11
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 11:57 PM)
Hrm... your sample is interesting, but from hearing to it, it seems to be potentially very easy on codecs :/

I've tested this sample with 2 of the codecs that will be in the test at (- if VBR - settings aiming at) 128kbps.
There were more then one for me easily abx'able differences in both cases but nothing really obvious/noticable to me without comparing to the original. So ABC/HR ratings would have been between ~4 and ~4.5. IMO there are some sounds in this sample that might cause more problems for other contenders (I won't talk about details publicly before the test) I'm not sure if this sample will help to get significant differences between codecs.


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 23:14
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 16 2004, 08:11 PM)
I'm not sure if this sample will help to get significant differences between codecs.

Good point. Can anyone else suggest live recordings?

Edit: So here is the samples list as of now:

BigYellow
DaFunk
fatboy
gone
Hongroise
Mahler
mybloodrusts
NewYorkCity
OrdinaryWorld
Quizas
Scars
Waiting

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Feb 16 2004, 23:16


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tigre
post Feb 16 2004, 23:30
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 17 2004, 12:14 AM)
Can anyone else suggest live recordings?

I can have a look if I find something quickly...

BTW: I would test a bit before suggesting something - so can you please tell what settings will be used with comaact and nero?


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rjamorim
post Feb 16 2004, 23:48
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QUOTE (tigre @ Feb 16 2004, 08:30 PM)
BTW: I would test a bit before suggesting something - so can you please tell what settings will be used with comaact and nero?

Nero: -internet
Keep in mind the test will use a DLL that officially will only be released with next Nero version:
http://pessoal.onda.com.br/rjamorim/aacenc_v2620.zip

Compaact: VBR 5


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tigre
post Feb 17 2004, 01:44
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I had no luck finding a hard to encode live sample. What about using Layla sample, or drop using a live sample and use this instead?


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KpeX
post Feb 17 2004, 03:32
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Feb 16 2004, 10:59 AM)
QUOTE (bond @ Feb 16 2004, 04:48 PM)
hm lpcm is used for dvd movie sound?

I don't know. But I would prefer LPCM neverthless smile.gif

Of course, if it's not available, DTS would be the way to go. AC3 isn't a good idea considering it's already quite compressed.

LPCM is definitely within DVD specs, but the only DVDs I know of that use it are music DVDs - defeating the purpose of finding a movie soundtrack sample.

I would be just as wary to use a DTS source as an AC3 source. IMO the compression quality isn't that much different from AC3 despite the fact that DTS uses ridiculously high bitrates.
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askoff
post Feb 17 2004, 05:31
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How about true killer sample, what Guruboolez uploaded once IIRC. biniou.flac

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