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R.I.P., The thread for dead CD-Rs
What brand of CD-R's have burnt fine but died after time without any physical damage (scratches etc.) or extreme exposure to sunlight, heat etc. ?
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kotrtim
post Mar 12 2005, 17:28
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QUOTE
I burned some 690 MB rar archive on it and right after burning the archive was already corrupt...how can they sell such CD's as 700MB blanks?


Your burner is good enough to be able to burn up to 80min......My burner stops at 74 min mark!!

This post has been edited by kotrtim: Mar 12 2005, 17:29
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somehow
post May 8 2005, 22:57
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As unbelievable as it may seem, all my dark blue Verbatim DataLife Plus Metal AZO CD-Rs (rated up to 16x speed) are defective! I've read some reports that these disc were rotting away from the outer edge inwards. It was imputed to bad insulation of the dye. Allegedly, sweat from one's fingertips eventually got in contact with it and the rotting began.

I bought a Plextor PX-716A and started to randomly scan some older CD-Rs to see in what shape they are. Luckily, all the few Imation/CMC CD-Rs I have were more than okay, which can't be said about some Prodisc ("Intenso") and noname ("Bestmedia") discs that were nearly completely dead. But then came the real surprise...

The typical scan of a Verbatim Metal AZO disc is as follows (both images are from the same scan, just the scale is different):





The first half of the disc is perfectly fine, but then a real catastrophe comes. Here are the numbers (average - max - total):
C1: 91.8 - 1438.0 - 385713.0
C2: 0.7 - 41.0 - 2894.0
CU: 0.0 - 1.0 - 9.0

The scan was executed on a PX-716A with firmware version 1.06 at 4x CLV speed. It goes without saying that it gets only worse when reading faster (C2 total raised to 4843, CU to 73 when reading 10-24x CAV). I've also tried to read the data from the end of the disc in a Toshiba DVD-ROM and an older Plextor CD-RW. No luck. And this is in fact one of the better discs...

If the reason lies really in bad separation of dye, one would expect it would be only a matter of one lot or one production facility. But all my Metal AZO discs are afected! There are both discs marked as 8x and as 16x speed, with different designs, from different countries (Taiwan, Ireland). All the discs were recorded on Plextor and Yamaha drives at reasonable speeds, stored in jewel cases in standing position at room temperature and are in perfect shape -- absolutely no scratches or fingerprints, no abrasive cleaning whatsoever. The oldest disc is about 6 years (maybe more), the newest around 3 years old.

No signs of problems with the green Super AZO follow-ups (24x+ speed) so far. But this really pisses me off and completely destroys my trust in the Verbatim brand. Probably the only brand I can still rely on is Taiyo Yuden. Taiyo Yudens with golden reflection layers (3M CD-Rs, some unrated, some 4x speed) are probably the oldest CD-Rs I have (along with golden Kodaks) and they are still in an absolutely perfect shape (in fact in better shape than some newer discs). Now I will have to go through my whole archive and try to save all I can from these Metal AZO discs. And I can only hope that newer Verbatim CD-Rs and DVD-Rs aren't going to end in a similar fashion. Maybe I wouldn't like to risk that and reburn the data to Taiyo Yuden DVD-Rs...

If anyone have some Verbatim Metal AZO discs, PLEASE run an error check on them and post your results.

For me, the most horrible finding is that Verbatim still manufactures and sells these same discs as "CD-R for Audio" as the Metal AZO dye performs better on lower recording speeds than contemporary ones. But I doubt that anything has changed in the dye formula. "100 years archival life" they say on the inlay... Is that just a vicious joke?
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sTisTi
post May 9 2005, 13:40
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QUOTE (somehow @ May 8 2005, 01:57 PM)
As unbelievable as it may seem, all my dark blue Verbatim DataLife Plus Metal AZO CD-Rs (rated up to 16x speed) are defective! I've read some reports that these disc were rotting away from the outer edge inwards. It was imputed to bad insulation of the dye. Allegedly, sweat from one's fingertips eventually got in contact with it and the rotting began.
*

Is there a visual sign of this "rotting"? Or do they look perfectly normal? Maybe you can scan a typical example and post it here.

QUOTE (somehow @ May 8 2005, 01:57 PM)
Probably the only brand I can still rely on is Taiyo Yuden.
*

Well, if I tell you about my horrible experiences with rotting Taiyo Yuden discs, you may think again wink.gif. Take a look at this CDFreaks thread. I think there's no brand that is absolutely trustworthy with regard to data integrity, though I tend to trust Verbatim Data Life Plus more than anything else. I always burn important data twice on discs from two different manufacturers. I have hundreds of Super Azo discs which are all OK AFAIK. I also have a few 16x Metal Azo discs, one of which I scanned recently, and it turned out just fine.
If you burn on DVD, there's less chance of dye layer oxidation AFAIK because the discs are constructed differently. However, I am not sure if actual DVD dye stability is as good as with CD dyes. E.g., there are no phthalocyanine dyes in DVD-R media, just metal stabilized Azo and cyanine. Under extreme conditions (heat, humidity), phthalocyanine dyes are supposed to be more stable, especially when combined with a gold reflective layer.


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HbG
post May 9 2005, 14:42
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Platinum (Princo). Never again.

I've also got some That's Write's failing (who manufactures them?), but they have been burned 7 years ago.

Burning MMore now.


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Veni Vidi Vorbis.
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kotrtim
post May 9 2005, 16:45
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That's should be Taiyo Yuden

QUOTE
If anyone have some Verbatim Metal AZO discs, PLEASE run an error check on them and post your results.


Somehow, Is your Verbatim disc White coated?
I have a Verbatim Metal Azo 8X which is manufactured in 1998 and I burnt it in 2004:D
There are still in perfect condition! Maybe you are unlucky to have always got the worse batch of verbatim? Or maybe the region you are residing is too poluted?

Have a Yamaha Disc t@2 (MetalAzo) with me which is also white top too
-scratched
-fingerprints

Yeah, still OK, there are a few spots where the silver reflector is oxidised
But the dye is still blue in color even though the silver protective layer is oxidised.

My RiTek discs are also rotting, they rote, the dye turn black too!

So the conclution I can make is Mitsubishi dye is strong against oxidation but the disc is not sealed properly until the silver layer is exposed to the air? Because even how stable or good the dye is, if the silver layer is gone, the data is also gone as there is no reflective layer to reflect the laser

The newer Verbatim SuperAzo has a more convincing metallic top coat, it looks stronger than the older white coat

This post has been edited by kotrtim: May 9 2005, 16:56
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de Mon
post May 9 2005, 18:20
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Two years ago somewhere I read about Metal Azo. Some people compared Metal Azo with Super Azo and some other good CD-Rs. One of the tests included long UV light exposition. And the peculiarity of Metal Azo's consisted in impossibility to endure against UV light even several days while Super Azo and others could stay 1-3 monthes.


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sTisTi
post May 9 2005, 19:03
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QUOTE (de Mon @ May 9 2005, 09:20 AM)
Two years ago somewhere I read about Metal Azo. Some people compared Metal Azo with Super Azo and some other good CD-Rs. One of the tests included long UV light exposition. And the peculiarity of Metal Azo's consisted in impossibility to endure against UV light even several days while Super Azo and others could stay 1-3 monthes.
*

A nice read with regard to media longevity is NIST's Stability Comparison of Recordable Optical Discs. Result: Super AZO and cyanine dyes were the big losers while most phthalocyanine discs proved remarkably stable.


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-T. Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow)
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Clemech
post Nov 28 2005, 20:14
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QUOTE (sTisTi @ May 9 2005, 01:03 PM)
QUOTE (de Mon @ May 9 2005, 09:20 AM)
Two years ago somewhere I read about Metal Azo. Some people compared Metal Azo with Super Azo and some other good CD-Rs. One of the tests included long UV light exposition. And the peculiarity of Metal Azo's consisted in impossibility to endure against UV light even several days while Super Azo and others could stay 1-3 monthes.
*

A nice read with regard to media longevity is NIST's Stability Comparison of Recordable Optical Discs. Result: Super AZO and cyanine dyes were the big losers while most phthalocyanine discs proved remarkably stable.
*



Not good news for those of us with lots of Verbatim Super Azos... Fortunately I keep mine in the dark out of hot temperatures.
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JeanLuc
post Nov 28 2005, 21:33
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QUOTE (sTisTi @ May 9 2005, 06:03 PM)
A nice read with regard to media longevity is NIST's Stability Comparison of Recordable Optical Discs. Result: Super AZO and cyanine dyes were the big losers while most phthalocyanine discs proved remarkably stable.
*


Yes ... although Verbatim's older Metal Azo is among the best media ever made (regarding jitter/BLER) it is not the best idea to take them in your car ... biggrin.gif


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Megaman
post Jan 18 2006, 04:11
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I recorded many Verbatim DataLife Plus Metal Azo (the old deep blue bottom, white top kind) back then in 2000-2001. I´m having problems with a couple of them, can´t read some sectors. I thought it was because of my old CD-RW unit but checked on newer equipment and can´t read those sectors either. Visually the discs are in pristine condition, I tried cleaning them but nothing happens.

The discs came in individual, sealed jewel case, not in a spindle. I regarded these discs as the most reliable at that time. Ironically on the back of the jewel case you can read "100 years archival life". Heh.


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Oge_user
post Feb 14 2006, 17:45
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Just lost 2 Verbatim (coloured, 700MB, like these) from 2002.

I inserted the CDRs until the drive recognized them and the folder structure was damaged; often they're not recognized. If I can, I'll post the Nero CD Speed test. With these 2 Verbatim disc, I had 4 CDRs from 2001-2002 gone in the last months.

No scratches, no sun exposition, I used to read these discs rarely. My fear is that the other Verbatim CDRs will follow this end...very bad wink.gif


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user
post Feb 16 2006, 12:14
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which ID have those "Verbatims" ? Does nero-tool tell it ?

This post has been edited by user: Feb 16 2006, 12:25


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Oge_user
post Feb 16 2006, 17:36
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I can't access to them: most of the times the drive doesn't recognize the CDRs...I'll try to post the ID if I can


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joschy
post Mar 11 2006, 13:15
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[COLOR=blue]
QUOTE (ViPER1313 @ Jan 17 2004, 07:39 PM)
I have ~2 year old Memorex (CMC) discs that have unrecoverable C2 errors around the end of the disc.
*
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outscape
post Apr 2 2006, 08:07
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QUOTE (Megaman @ Jan 17 2006, 10:11 PM)
I recorded many Verbatim DataLife Plus Metal Azo (the old deep blue bottom, white top kind) back then in 2000-2001. I´m having problems with a couple of them, can´t read some sectors. I thought it was because of my old CD-RW unit but checked on newer equipment and can´t read those sectors either. Visually the discs are in pristine condition, I tried cleaning them but nothing happens.

The discs came in individual, sealed jewel case, not in a spindle. I regarded these discs as the most reliable at that time. Ironically on the back of the jewel case you can read "100 years archival life". Heh.
*

there are many reasons why your cdrs degrade, sometimes it's environmental issues such as storage in damp areas that can have an effect the media. generally the mitsubishi verbatim are known for quality but as always take the 100 years of archival reliability with a grain of salt. the only brand that has not disappointed me is taiyo yuden, i have their discs and some are nearly 10 years old and still work perfectly. not only they work but the error rate when new is the lowest in the industry and they've been very compatible with all my writers.


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satorippoi
post Apr 2 2006, 13:08
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Well, Verbatim Pastel = Taiyo Yuden, right?..

As far as i know, Taiyo Yuden manufactures discs for Verbatim...here is the test...

CODE
 Drive Type = DVD DUAL
        Disc Type = CDR
         Material = Cyanine
          Lead In = 97:24:01
         Lead Out = 79:59:72
 Nominal Capacity = 702.83MB
Manufacturer Maybe = Taiyo Yuden Company Limited
SMART-BURN Speed Limit = 40X (Write)


This is my latest Verbatim Pastel, came in slim case each...
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Jimmy The Clam
post May 20 2006, 00:16
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Other (please post):

HP CDR 48X
80min / 700MB

Silver

Aluminum layer degraded to clear after 3.5 years.
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Wombat
post May 20 2006, 00:47
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Something not completely different.
Deutsche Grammophon - Karajan/Berliner Philharmoniker - Les Préludes, Die Moldau...
One of the early "DDD" recordings bought 1984.
CD-Player gives a big ERROR. Some CD-Roms even don´t recognize this CD as such. Some drives can read the TOC and NO drive gets even near to read any audio data. No real scratches.
One of my rare CDs in my collection i will never get back with ease crying.gif
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2Bdecided
post Jul 4 2006, 15:11
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I hoped I'd never have to visit this thread, but...

disc says:
FUJIFILM 1-24x CD-R 650MB
FPL05B 001 CD-R 650MB

case says: Made in Germany.

Visibly, from the front, you can see that the silver disc has started to turn cold around the outside edge. The recording surface is silver with a hint of green. The disc was burned 1/11/2002, and was probably bought a week before, 10 for £4 which seemed a bargain at the time.

Tested using Nero CD Speed (though the info screen won't update, so I can't report the "real" manufacturer)

C2 Errors:
Total: 36575559
Minimum: 0
Maximum: 151702
Average: 9306.76

CD speed produces a very pretty graph, showing the C2 errors increasing smoothly from 0 starting at 42 minutes in, to 50000 by the end. There are also spikes of higher error rates.

The ScanDisc tool shows some yellow, and some red blocks.

In windows, the files nearer the start of the disc read fine, while those towards the end don't.

I think windows gives up at the first sign of a C2 error. As these are mainly text files, it would be nice to be able to read through these and get off what I can. If anyone has any data recovery tips, please post / link!

I'm adding this post in the hope that it prompts someone out there to check their Fujifilm CD-Rs and make a back up before it's too late!

(FWIW I have other, older Fujifilm CD-Rs, with a light blue recording surface, no "Made in..." to identify them, which seem fine. Unfortunately, I have a lot of discs like the one above. If my life hadn't moved on so much, I think I'd be crying at the loss of all this!)




QUOTE (Wombat @ May 20 2006, 00:47) *
Something not completely different.
Deutsche Grammophon - Karajan/Berliner Philharmoniker - Les Préludes, Die Moldau...
One of the early "DDD" recordings bought 1984.
CD-Player gives a big ERROR. Some CD-Roms even don´t recognize this CD as such. Some drives can read the TOC and NO drive gets even near to read any audio data. No real scratches.
One of my rare CDs in my collection i will never get back with ease crying.gif


Wombat,

It wasn't manufactured by PDO was it?

If so, and it has rotted, they'll replace it for you...

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.asp

...unfortunately I think your disc is too early for this to be the problem.

(btw, Hyperion, who provide the above information, make some fantastic recordings - well worth a try).

Cheers,
David.

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Wombat
post Jul 4 2006, 16:05
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jul 4 2006, 15:11) *
Wombat,

It wasn't manufactured by PDO was it?

If so, and it has rotted, they'll replace it for you...

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.asp

...unfortunately I think your disc is too early for this to be the problem.

(btw, Hyperion, who provide the above information, make some fantastic recordings - well worth a try).

Cheers,
David.

No it wasn´t. Polydor 1984 "Made in U.K." 413587-2
I have a Sgt. Pepper´s pressing that is showing this bronzing effect. Parlophone CDP 7 46442 2 and again "Made in U.K."
I bought it in 1987. It still hasn´t reached the music data and rips still fine.
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2Bdecided
post Jul 4 2006, 16:21
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QUOTE (Wombat @ Jul 4 2006, 16:05) *
Polydor 1984 "Made in U.K." 413587-2
I have a Sgt. Pepper´s pressing that is showing this bronzing effect. Parlophone CDP 7 46442 2 and again "Made in U.K."
I bought it in 1987. It still hasn´t reached the music data and rips still fine.


I have a 1987 Parlophone disc (Pet Shop Boys) where the label (i.e. the printing!) just washed off when I tried to wash some finger prints off! Sgt Pepper seems fine though.

btw (if I didn't make it clear before - you probably realised already though), PDO isn't the label - it's the disc manufacturer. You have to look carefully at the writing in the silver around the centre - sometimes only visible from the underside of the disc. PDO made discs for many people during the affected period, and it sounds like they may all rot in the end.

Cheers,
David.
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Wombat
post Jul 4 2006, 16:41
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I looked everywhere before but found no PDO so i transmitted the ident numbers.

Cheers!
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dreamliner77
post Jul 4 2006, 17:53
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David,

You might want to try Isobuster to see if you can get any data off that disc. Also, there is a program similar to EAC for data cd's, but I'd be damned, I can't find it.


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2Bdecided
post Jul 11 2006, 12:24
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QUOTE (dreamliner77 @ Jul 4 2006, 17:53) *
You might want to try Isobuster to see if you can get any data off that disc.


Thanks - that worked well. I'll use it on all the others ASAP!

Cheers,
David.
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Wombat
post Jul 31 2006, 20:52
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Just some Info about my "Deutsche Grammophon - Karajan" CD. I sent it back to "Deutsche Grammophon (EBS)" and got the reply that all discs of these years of their line made in U.K. have these problems due to the manufacturing.
My special release isn´t available anymore but they offer me a replacement out of their actual program.

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