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Burning Live Albums with nero, Cannot succeed to eliminate the pauses
Metallo
post Jan 10 2004, 22:18
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Dear all,

I have dowloaded a live album in mp3 format.

In order to eliminate the typical cuts among the songs, given that mp3DirectCut could not succeed in making a proper cut, I have converted the file in WAV, edited properly and re-converted back to mp3.
There is no pause when I listen to it with any player in my PC.
I have then created the cues with mp3DirectCut and finally saved the mp3 splits.
Then, burned everything with Nero, after having eliminated the 2s pause from all the songs and checked the box "remove silence at the end of the audio tracks".

Result: I can still hear the pauses.

I have tried to burn with different softwares, same issue.
I have checked and re-checked the WAV file, it is perfect.
The mp3 is also perfect, if I listen with any player like winamp, MediaPlayer etc, all the cuts I have done to eliminate the 60ms silence among every song are no longer there.

Any idea?

Thanks
Alex
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minix
post Jan 10 2004, 22:47
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we've already said that you can't do that with Nero...

QUOTE
I have then created the cues with mp3DirectCut and finally saved the mp3 splits.


I don't know what you mean with this, but I suspect that you shouldn't use CUEs to burn these tracks.


QUOTE
Then, burned everything with Nero, after having eliminated the 2s pause from all the songs and checked the box "remove silence at the end of the audio tracks".


The "remove silence at the end of tracks" box doesn't work. It does nothing. We've already said that Nero is buggy.
Search the help for that option. You won't find anything about it. Why? Because it's just cosmetic (to fool people I guess).


QUOTE
I have checked and re-checked the WAV file, it is perfect.


If the WAV files have no silence at the beginning and end, then it's very easy with Feurio!
Create a project with the "Do not insert pauses between tracks - round track markers" Setting (this is what Nero can't do).
Drag and drop the WAV files.
Use the Wave Player or Track Editor. This way you can hear exactly what is going to burned.
If there's no gap, the burned disc will have no gap.

This post has been edited by minix: Jan 10 2004, 23:18
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AtaqueEG
post Jan 11 2004, 00:50
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QUOTE (Metallo @ Jan 10 2004, 03:18 PM)
I have converted the file in WAV, edited properly and re-converted back to mp3.

This has nothing to do with Nero.
MP3 files are not inherently gapless. Why it does play gaplessly in your computer is because some players have workarounds/hacks to achieve this.

Trying to burn a MP3 and expect it to be gapless is another matter.
If it is a LAME 3.90-or-superior encode, I suggest decoding with foobar2000 prior to burn. The decoded files will match the exact lenght of the original waves, thus providing real gapless playback.

I suggest to stay away from MP3DirectCut or similar on this subject. The reason is that no matter how accurate your cuts are, MP3 encoding/decoding has a delay (gap) that only decoders such as foobar2000's can deal with in an effective way.

This post has been edited by AtaqueEG: Jan 11 2004, 00:51


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Metallo
post Jan 11 2004, 18:43
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Minix,

When you say Feurio, you mean the Ahead one or this one

http://www.feurio.com/English/index.shtml

or maybe they are the same??

QUOTE
I don't know what you mean with this, but I suspect that you shouldn't use CUEs to burn these tracks


A cue is a selection having a length of 0, cues do not modify the audio but just can be used to locate positions, hence, to be able to split the master mp3 into tracks.

Basically, you are telling me that there is no way to burn gapless mp3 if first I do not convert the mp3 to WAV, cut the silences, re-convert and burn with Feurio.
With the exception of the burning program, I do all the rest, but still I hope to hear that there's a software that allows me to cut the silences in mp3 directly without converting to WAV, it is a long process everytime.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Alex


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minix
post Jan 11 2004, 19:05
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Both Feurio are the same.
Use the "original" web. It's more helpful.


About the CUE.
I think I didn't understand well.
If you try to make a CUE with multiple MP3 files, then it won't work.
Of course if you decode to WAV, delete silences, recombine everything in one WAV file, and create the CUE to define the cuts, then it would work... but it's just a waste of time.


QUOTE
Basically, you are telling me that there is no way to burn gapless mp3 if first I do not convert the mp3 to WAV, cut the silences, re-convert and burn with Feurio.

reconvert?
to MP3?
Don't do it. Everytime you encode to MP3 you lose quality.


QUOTE
but still I hope to hear that there's a software that allows me to cut the silences in mp3 directly without converting to WAV

I know Feurio can do it. Maybe there are more.
The problem is a visualization bug that makes lose the correct position in the window with respect to the real postion (when using MP3 format).
If you have an old burner, I can send you old versions of Feurio without that bug.
It's one of the easiest and fastest ways of manually deleting those silences in MP3 files: just open the Track Editor from Feurio CD-Manager, use "Set start/end position" to delete, and "Burn".

You'll see that the limited non destructive Feurio Track Editor is faster than the typical professional editors. Decoding to WAV is very fast in Feurio, and you don't lose much time because the .OVR (overview) files will be created and tracks will be opened inmediately. (With MP3 those .OVR have to be created, losing time when opening Tack Editor).

Check if your drive is supported:
http://www.feurio.com/English/cd_writer.shtml

This post has been edited by minix: Jan 11 2004, 19:06
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AtaqueEG
post Jan 11 2004, 20:10
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QUOTE (minix @ Jan 11 2004, 12:05 PM)
QUOTE
but still I hope to hear that there's a software that allows me to cut the silences in mp3 directly without converting to WAV

I know Feurio can do it. Maybe there are more.

Feurio can't.
I has no gapless-MP3-decoding capability.
Using a sound editor in MP3 to trim silences is nonsense, as I told before, there is always a tiny gap (or "silence") caused by the encoder/decoder padding.
The only software I know that deals with this is foobar2000.
There is a way to fix your MP3 even if they do not already have the gapless info.
Read here for more details. It is quite a bit of work, but no more than wasting your time with a sound editor.


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Metallo
post Jan 11 2004, 20:16
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Minix,

QUOTE
Don't do it. Everytime you encode to MP3 you lose quality.


But...if you burn a WAV file, say with Nero, doesn't it reconvert the file anyhow?

I have a Plextor 16/10/40A, therefore, I shouldn't have a problem with Feurio!

So far, I have used mp3DirectCut, it works for studio Lps, but for the Live one looks to be a problem, unless burning with Feurio the whole mp3 with the defined cues will work where Nero doesn't.

I'll let you know.

Thanks
Alex


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minix
post Jan 11 2004, 20:23
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ Jan 11 2004, 09:10 PM)
QUOTE (minix @ Jan 11 2004, 12:05 PM)
QUOTE
a software that allows me to cut the silences in mp3 directly without converting to WAV

I know Feurio can do it. Maybe there are more.

Feurio can't.

???
Metallo is saying: "a software that allows me to cut the silences in mp3 directly without converting to WAV"
You go to Feurio Track Editor, and press "Set end position". There you have it. You have cut the end of the track. Then Burn.

Of course, this non-destructive Track Editor doesn't modify the MP3 file. All operations are made on the fly while burning, that's exactly why it works. Feurio only burns what you told him: burn this track from sample 4593 to sample 897439.

MP3DirectCut is a "destructive" editor. Feurio is not.

I have done it a hundred times to elminate those horrible gaps in MP3 "live discs".
Of course, I have to do it manually.
Metallo, don't forget to select "Do not insert pauses between tracks - round track markers" Setting.

This post has been edited by minix: Jan 11 2004, 20:29
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Metallo
post Jan 11 2004, 20:23
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AtaqueEG,

I saw your post after I sent mine.

It looks to me that Foobar2000 is a Player, but I want to burn a CD audio, I am not interested in playing the CD on PC but only on a standalone DVD Player.

Unless, I'm missing something on the way...

Thanks
Alex


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AtaqueEG
post Jan 11 2004, 20:33
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QUOTE (Metallo @ Jan 11 2004, 01:23 PM)
AtaqueEG,

I saw your post after I sent mine.

It looks to me that Foobar2000 is a Player, but I want to burn a CD audio, I am not interested in playing the CD on PC but only on a standalone DVD Player.

Unless, I'm missing something on the way...

headbang.gif

It is a player, a file converter, a music-CD burner, a tagger, a coffee maker*, and so much more.

QUOTE
Unless, I'm missing something on the way...

You bet.
But check it out yourself.

*JOKE


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alkabrecka
post Jan 11 2004, 20:33
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No, those WAV files are essentially the same kind of audio that you would find on an audio cd: Uncompressed 44.1khz 16 bit stereo PCM. Nero would have no reason to convert it to any other format before burning. So if you have a live album and convert all the mp3 files to WAV, then go into a sound editor and delete the small amount of leading and trailing silence on every file manually, there isn't any reason the tracks shouldn't run together perfectly as an audio CD. Keep in mind there isn't any preset amount of silence added when encoding to mp3, it just adds enough to fill up any frames that aren't fully used by the audio.

If you transcode back to mp3, the gaps will come back.
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dreamliner77
post Jan 11 2004, 20:35
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1) convert to wav. Edit out silence in a wav editor. Now you have gapless wav's. Burn these to cd. No need to convert back to mp3. And no, the burning software does not convert back to mp3. Wav is essentially cd audio.

2) Foobar2000 is a player, but it also has the ability to burn if you have Nero installed.


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minix
post Jan 11 2004, 20:44
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QUOTE
I have a Plextor 16/10/40A, therefore, I shouldn't have a problem with Feurio!

A recommended burner for Feurio!
Unfortunatelly it's oficially supported only from version 1.61, which has the visualization bug I found in my system.

When you drop the MP3 to the project, select to decode them to try the Track Editor. When you find how it works, try it without decoding to see if it works for you.

QUOTE
unless burning with Feurio the whole mp3 with the defined cues will work where Nero doesn't.

If you have a big MP3 without gaps and a correct CUE, you can correctly burn it with Feurio or Nero.
Feurio CD-Manager -> Project -> Create project from cuesheet file. Press "Play" to hear if it's correct before burning.



QUOTE
1) convert to wav. Edit out silence in a wav editor. Now you have gapless wav's. Burn these to cd. No need to convert back to mp3. And no, the burning software does not convert back to mp3. Wav is essentially cd audio.

2) Foobar2000 is a player, but it also has the ability to burn if you have Nero installed.

The problem is that Nero can't correctly burn tracks that are not multiple of a CD-DA sector.
You'll have to use something like Feurio to burn.

This post has been edited by minix: Jan 11 2004, 20:47
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/\/ephaestous
post Jan 11 2004, 21:34
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does foobar have a kitchen sink? I need a kitchen sink! Where's my kitchen sink!!!


PS: I'm on the gripping hand now.


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Metallo
post Jan 12 2004, 22:48
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Hi Guys,

I promised a feedback and here I am.

FEURIO
It works, the gaps disappear in the burned CD.
The issues I found are the following:

Once the mp3 has been decoded to WAV, (remember, I am talking about a complete live LP), I detect all the gaps among the tracks, Split track (not linked) at the end of a track, Set Start Position at the beginning of the next, and...voila the gap is eliminated.
I do this for all the songs, then I highlight all the tracks and I link the them.
This works perefectly, but...
I have to accept the position of the original gaps as they came in the source mp3, if one or more of them are not in the right position (for instance, the singer is speaking to the audience), then I can possibly move the Split but then the original gap cannot be cut off, because apparently Feurio cannot cut off silences in any position of a song.

As a result, I said myself, well, I save the project and then cut off the outstanding gaps with another editor.
Well, I could not find a way to save into WAV what I have done with the track editor, because a project has got a different extention.

Result, I deleted everything and I am now ready to start from the beginning.

Conclusion, still I cannot find one single piece of software that can manage together, conversion to WAV, minimum editing properties (silence cutting), burning gapless files.

Looking forward to reading your comments.

Regards
Alex
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minix
post Jan 12 2004, 23:24
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QUOTE
Once the mp3 has been decoded to WAV, (remember, I am talking about a complete live LP)

a big MP3 file with gaps? how strange! That's not the usual issue. I'm not sure if this can be done with Feurio because it's a simple-fast track editor and can't delete samples from the middle of a file.


QUOTE
Well, I could not find a way to save into WAV what I have done with the track editor, because a project has got a different extention.

That's right. It's non-destrutive and you have to burn it with Feurio.


don't you have an MP3 file for every track?
If it's a big file, then you probably have to split it with a real editor into several tracks.
To burn, Nero will remove the last samples of every track, so I would still use Feurio for that (and also its track editor to remove the silences from the smaller tracks).
I'll check if it can be easily done with big files.

This post has been edited by minix: Jan 12 2004, 23:24
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Metallo
post Jan 13 2004, 00:04
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Minix,

QUOTE
a big MP3 file with gaps? how strange! That's not the usual issue. I'm not sure if this can be done with Feurio because it's a simple-fast track editor and can't delete samples from the middle of a file.


Yes, strange but true.
As said Feurio handles this perfectly provided that I act as described and accept the existing splits.

I am now testing Adobe Audition, it's an excellent editor, but it doesn't save the cuts in different files and it doesn't burn CDs.
So, even if I edit the file with Adobe Audition, then I have to re-load it into Feurio and start again applying the splits.

I can get to the result, I have been testing for days now but I don't think this is the appropriate way to work, too much hassle.

Feurio has been the closest so far, but what a pity that I cannot save into WAV what I edit through trackEditor.

I hope you can find a workaround.

Thanks
Alex

I also had a look to Foobar2000, but it is too much for me to begin again and learn that program as well, I am testing all of them and I would have never expected that still today there's not a real complete suite that can properly editing, burning etc. Nero fails miserably when it has to do with pauses.


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minix
post Jan 13 2004, 00:45
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yes, you're right, you can do it with a big MP3 file and "Split tracks (not linked)" like you said.
and you can delete silence from the middle of a track, but a new split has to be created and you'll have two tracks instead of one (like originally).

I guess this is what you meant before. You can move the split but you can't "Join" two tracks in one track.
Maybe you can do this with Audition in the big file and saving again the big file, and use Feurio then... ?


and yes, the only output of Feurio Track Editor is a burned disc.
and I also don't know how to save splitted tracks in CoolEdit.

curiosity: how do you have so many "concerts" in big files with silences inside?

This post has been edited by minix: Jan 13 2004, 00:50
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zver
post Jan 13 2004, 01:44
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You can do all that with Samplitude...Actually i remember that earlier version could doit,so newer one should do it as well.Version i tryed was producer,therefore im not sure how well featured is a clasic version??Check it here...
http://www.samplitude.com/de/sam.htm
Edit;I used it mostly for capuring lps-cassetes to hd and editing audio and i dont have it installed it now,so i cant check if a new version could do.

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BigRedMachineSla...
post Jan 13 2004, 02:03
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Just a comment about the burning problem with Nero in the first post. Make sure you are using "Disc-at-Once" mode and NOT "Track-at-Once" mode as track-at-once will introduce physical gaps on the CD.
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Metallo
post Jan 13 2004, 17:33
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Hi folks,

Another question.

I have downloaded an mp3 file of a studio Lp.
Among the tracks there are gaps, some of them must be eliminated because the song is linked to the next with music, therefore I can do this in FEURIO, but some other track needs the 2s Pause to be kept.
Now, for those that need just a cue (no gap) I can link the track, for the others I cannot or at least I shoudn't.

How will FEURIO behave when he will be ready to burn the CD?
I mean, if I have created a project with "Do not insert pauses between tracks - round track markers", how will FEURIO burn the ones where I need the 2s pause?

I know, I look like getting around the most strange files, but I assure you, this is common stuff coming out of the net.

Thanks
Alex
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minix
post Jan 13 2004, 22:50
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QUOTE (Metallo @ Jan 13 2004, 06:33 PM)
How will FEURIO behave when he will be ready to burn the CD?
I mean, if I have created a project with "Do not insert pauses between tracks - round track markers", how will FEURIO burn the ones where I need the 2s pause?

Feurio will burn the CD exactly as you can hear it by pressing "Play" or Track Editor.

You have two "Settings" buttons.
One for the settings of the project and one for the settings of the tracks.
The 1st will set the general options for the project ("Do not insert pauses").
The 2nd can control specific options for certain track. The track must not be linked. Put 2 seconds pause like you do in Nero.
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