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Results for 24bit/96KHz test, vs. 16bit/44.1KHz
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post Jan 4 2004, 06:20
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I've been trying tigre's 24/96 test proposed in this thread, and also discussed at Afterdawn.

High definition stuff is also discussed here, here, and samples are here, but yeah, we've got a listening test thread now, so might as well use it...

My equipment is an M-Audio Revolution 7.1 feeding straight to Sennheiser HD 200 headphones. I downloaded Lovely_1.wv and used foobar2000 to do resampling, replaygaining, and ABXing. At first I was using waveOut, but then I retested them all using Kernel Streaming.

Anyway, I can ABX (with less than 1% chance of guessing):

[24/96] vs. [24/96->16/44.1->24/96] (slow resampling, dither)
[24/96] vs. [24/96->24/44.1->24/96] (slow resampling)
[24/96] vs. [24/96->16/96->24/96] (dither)

My results varied a bit, but all were significant. The first test I did, I was not expecting to hear any difference, so I was very careful, and got 12/12. Since then I've had 12/12s, 11/12s, a 10/10, and an 8/8 (got interrupted but still a valid result, and it was only a retest...)

The most consistently hearable difference for me is when I listen between 5.2 and 7.2 seconds. Some sort of drum gets hit at about 5.7s. The high definition one is somehow more convincing. Today I was thinking of the good one as a push and the bad one as a pull, but yeah that's not a very helpdul description..

I'm also hearing other differences, but it's hard to know whether I'm being tipped off by something while focussing on something else, or even what the actual difference is in objective terms.

So, what could be wrong? What else would be worth testing? I was thinking of noise shaping the output maybe...
I'm not that keen to do a huge amount of retesting with every possible combination, but if someone thinks of something important I'll be sure to check it.
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MLXXX
post Apr 18 2008, 15:11
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I assumed Unfortunateson had left the material at 32 bit floating when dropping the sampling rate.

Anyway, that's what I did this evening when testing his guitar "doodle". I used Audacity for the conversion to 44.1Khz. This evening when I listened, I found that initially the unconverted version of the guitar did sound different. However, I was only able to get 3 correct results with ABX before the samples started sounding the same and I had to abandon the exercise.


An easier exercise!

A much easier exercise is to compare the 96KHz/24-bit sample of a musical triangle located on the PCABX test page, to a downconverted version. Here is a link to the test page: http://64.41.69.21/technical/sample_rates/index.htm

I chose the Triangle Reference Presented At 24/96 version, and downconverted it to 44.1KHz at 32 bit floating point, using Audigy.

With the original sample, the striking of the triangle appeared to emanate from about midway between the front speakers of my home theatre set-up. With the resampled version, the sound appeared to emanate more from the left. This was such a clear difference of itself, I could ABX with ten tests quite easily, as follows:-.

foo_abx 1.3.1 report
foobar2000 v0.9.5.1
2008/04/18 21:53:51

File A: C:\Users\Public\Downloads\triangle-2_2496.wav
File B: C:\Users\Public\Downloads\triangle-2_2496as44-1KHz.wav

21:53:51 : Test started.
21:55:55 : 01/01 50.0%
21:56:41 : 02/02 25.0%
21:56:56 : 03/03 12.5%
21:57:11 : 04/04 6.3%
21:57:22 : 05/05 3.1%
21:57:33 : 06/06 1.6%
21:57:45 : 07/07 0.8%
21:57:56 : 08/08 0.4%
21:58:07 : 09/09 0.2%
21:58:13 : 10/10 0.1%
21:58:21 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

I tried other software (ntrack studio 4) and it also moved the sound of the struck triangle towards the left hand speaker when converting to 44.1KHz.

I also tried headphones: the effect was much less apparent.


I note that whereas (as mentioned in other threads) it has not been possible to establish that a reduction from 24-bits to 16-bits (using proper noise shaped dither) can be ABXd with 44.1KHz sampled music at realistic recording and listening levels, there does seem to be quite a demonstrable difference between a sample rate of 96KHz and a derived 44.1KHz version of the same recording, at least with some material.

Whether that is due to vagaries in filters in creating a 44.1KHz version I do not know. As I say, I used 'Audacity' and 'N-track' for my sample rate conversion. Perhaps other converters leave the sound closer to the original.* However even the 44.1KHz version on the PCABX webpage labelled "Triangle Down- sampled To 44 KHz Presented At 24/96" seems to emanate somewhat left of centre, when I play it back on my HTPC system.

I'd also mention that a distorted guitar sound, such as Unfortunateson provided us, may not be as prone to noticeable disturbance by a changed sample rate as other music, though I have not experimented with different types of music myself. [For me, the 96KHz version of the "guitar doodle" had a more solid sound, with more edge, but there was very little in it for my ears.]

_________________________

* Using another PC, and Adobe Audition, the movement in the stereo image after conversion to 44.1KHz of the triangle sample was much less, but there was still a discernable difference in the stereo image and in the sound quality, sufficent for ABX purposes.

This post has been edited by MLXXX: Apr 18 2008, 15:44
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post Apr 18 2008, 16:11
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Hi MLXXX,

can you also test some other ABX, with changing only 1 parameter each test ?
(In your abovely described tests, it is unclear to me, if you changed both parameters at same time, or only bitrate or only sampling.)

(Like I asked above the unfortunateson)

Ie. start sample has always 24 bit, 96 kHz, (= 96-24)

so, for ABX , both of you succeeded in discerning 96-24 to 44.1-16.

it will be very interesting,
if you can ABX (or not) the source 96-24 vs. 96-16, and next: 96-24 vs. 44.1-24 bits !


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Posts in this topic
- listen   Results for 24bit/96KHz test   Jan 4 2004, 06:20
- - tigre   Thanks for the effort, listen. I hope this will en...   Jan 4 2004, 18:53
- - listen   I just tried another ABX test. This time it was 9...   Jan 5 2004, 08:11
- - tigre   Intreseting. Mabe we're getting closer to trac...   Jan 5 2004, 13:11
- - listen   Hi tigre, I'm not sure why I didn't check ...   Jan 6 2004, 07:48
- - KikeG   Such rate of success in ABX makes the results a li...   Jan 6 2004, 16:22
- - KikeG   Ok, finally I got to generate the test files. Dow...   Jan 7 2004, 10:52
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (KikeG @ Jan 7 2004, 09:52 AM)Don't...   Jan 7 2004, 11:26
- - KikeG   Now, when you have tried the test files at my prev...   Jan 7 2004, 12:06
- - listen   Thanks for the input, I'll start working throu...   Jan 7 2004, 23:49
- - Pio2001   I tried to ABX KikeG's files : lovely_short vs...   Jan 9 2004, 00:31
- - listen   Ok, I had a session last night and got some result...   Jan 9 2004, 02:13
- - Pio2001   My soundcard doesn't support kernel streaming....   Jan 9 2004, 12:22
- - Continuum   OT: QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jan 9 2004, 12:31 AM)......   Jan 9 2004, 14:59
- - KikeG   Very interesting... Listen, could you try another...   Jan 10 2004, 12:25
- - Garf   QUOTE (listen @ Jan 9 2004, 03:13 AM)lovely_d...   Jan 10 2004, 12:47
- - listen   Sure I will try the next batch, and double check f...   Jan 11 2004, 00:57
- - Continuum   QUOTE (listen @ Jan 11 2004, 12:57 AM)the dif...   Jan 11 2004, 08:43
- - Garf   QUOTE (Continuum @ Jan 11 2004, 09:43 AM)If y...   Jan 11 2004, 10:51
- - Continuum   QUOTE (Garf @ Jan 11 2004, 10:51 AM)Another p...   Jan 11 2004, 11:35
- - Garf   Some more stuff to test with: http://sjeng.org/ft...   Jan 11 2004, 14:02
- - listen   Just thought I should say that I'm leaving tow...   Jan 14 2004, 03:38
- - listen   I got motivated by a thread I saw the other day......   Mar 31 2004, 04:57
- - tigre   listen, thanks for still spending time on this. T...   Mar 31 2004, 08:39
- - tigre   QUOTE (listen @ Mar 31 2004, 05:57 AM)I had a...   Mar 31 2004, 08:47
- - 2Bdecided   QUOTE (listen @ Jan 10 2004, 11:57 PM)About v...   Mar 31 2004, 10:51
- - phwip   Please forgive my ignorance as a complete newbie t...   Mar 31 2004, 11:40
- - listen   Well yes you pretty much sum it up perfectly in my...   Mar 31 2004, 12:36
- - tigre   phwip: immagine you throw a coin 10 times. The pro...   Mar 31 2004, 14:12
- - tigre   QUOTE (listen @ Mar 31 2004, 01:36 PM)Well ye...   Mar 31 2004, 14:22
- - sshd   I hate statistics: The probability to get 11 corr...   Mar 31 2004, 14:33
- - Pio2001   It is perfectly valid, and recommended, to train o...   Mar 31 2004, 19:39
- - phwip   Thanks Pio2001, that makes things much clearer for...   Mar 31 2004, 22:23
- - listen   I've got a master volume, and also faders for ...   Mar 31 2004, 22:44
- - listen   Thanks for the stats sshd.. QUOTE (sshd @ Mar...   Apr 1 2004, 05:39
- - KikeG   Ok, I've been quite absent from some time here...   Apr 2 2004, 16:40
- - tigre   Thanks for your answer, KikeG. I've been think...   Apr 2 2004, 18:08
- - Pio2001   When you add two sinusoides of different frequenci...   Apr 2 2004, 20:56
- - listen   Hi tigre.. I don't have a separate headphone a...   Apr 3 2004, 01:38
- - listen   Well, if the difference frequencies appear mostly ...   Apr 6 2004, 02:49
- - Pio2001   What do you mean ? If the 4 kHz frequency of our e...   Apr 6 2004, 11:47
- - listen   Oh. . No, I was thinking of KikeG's speculati...   Apr 14 2004, 23:31
- - listen   Well.. I've been busy again, but I see I haven...   May 13 2004, 07:30
- - listen   I thought I should clarify this 'result pickin...   May 14 2004, 02:11
- - Pio2001   It's been a long time since I read this thread...   May 14 2004, 11:18
- - listen   So, quite sincerely, if my Sennheiser's are no...   May 20 2004, 12:50
- - Pio2001   I don't know, but for me, it was not a waste o...   May 20 2004, 16:09
- - WmAx   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ May 20 2004, 07:09 AM)I don...   Jun 1 2004, 16:00
- - Pio2001   Thank you for the link, WmAx, Very interesting. I...   Jun 2 2004, 01:11
- - WmAx   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jun 1 2004, 04:11 PM)Thank y...   Jun 2 2004, 01:52
- - Pio2001   QUOTE (WmAx @ Jun 2 2004, 01:52 AM)A signfica...   Jun 7 2004, 20:43
- - WmAx   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Jun 7 2004, 11:43 AM)[ QUOTE...   Jun 7 2004, 22:22
- - Pio2001   QUOTE (WmAx @ Jun 7 2004, 10:22 PM)Thank you ...   Jun 7 2004, 23:06
- - Pio2001   In French, a positive ABX result between castanet2...   Jul 2 2004, 22:01
|- - WmAx   I can not read French and a translator makes a mes...   Jul 26 2004, 18:55
|- - Pio2001   QUOTE (WmAx @ Jul 26 2004, 06:55 PM)Taking in...   Jul 26 2004, 21:09
|- - WmAx   QUOTE I agree with you. If we want to prove that u...   Jul 26 2004, 21:33
|- - krabapple   I'd be curious to know the conclusions of that...   Aug 20 2004, 07:27
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (krabapple @ Aug 20 2004, 01:27 AM)I...   Aug 20 2004, 18:47
- - Pio2001   I didn't have the time yet to read all this pa...   Aug 20 2004, 12:14
|- - WmAx   QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Aug 20 2004, 06:14 AM)I didn...   Aug 20 2004, 18:33
- - unfortunateson   I created a 96khz sample (a bad electric guitar do...   Apr 16 2008, 06:02
- - Axon   Interesting. How did you downsample it?   Apr 16 2008, 07:02
|- - unfortunateson   QUOTE (Axon @ Apr 15 2008, 23:02) Interes...   Apr 16 2008, 07:23
- - unfortunateson   QUOTE (unfortunateson @ Apr 15 2008, 22:0...   Apr 17 2008, 22:55
- - unfortunateson   ABX log for 96khz vs 44.1khz resample (r8brain res...   Apr 18 2008, 03:47
|- - user   You have compared 96-24 vs. 44.1-16. There were ch...   Apr 18 2008, 12:55
|- - unfortunateson   QUOTE (user @ Apr 18 2008, 04:55) You hav...   Apr 18 2008, 16:19
|- - Nick.C   QUOTE (unfortunateson @ Apr 18 2008, 16:1...   Apr 18 2008, 16:28
- - MLXXX   I assumed Unfortunateson had left the material at ...   Apr 18 2008, 15:11
|- - user   Hi MLXXX, can you also test some other ABX, with ...   Apr 18 2008, 16:11
- - MLXXX   Hi user, I had no desire to introduce an additiona...   Apr 18 2008, 16:36


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