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The Internet Archive needs more downloaders!, Live Music Archive, the eTree Collection
TrNSZ
post Dec 31 2003, 23:22
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Brewster Kahle, owner of the Internet Archive, recently wrote an announcement asking for more people to use bandwidth at the site. They're apparently paying for 500MB/s but are only attracting 350MB/s.

Along with many other collections, the Internet Archive is home to the Live Music Archive, featuring live shows by numerous trade-friendly artists, available in lossless SHN and FLAC formats. All shows can be freely downloaded for any non-commericial use in a variety of ways, including FTP and HTTP. Most shows are available packaged as archives or individual tracks.

Currently the music archive contains nearly 8,000 full concerts by more than 400 participating groups and artists.

Source: eTree-Announce

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Dec 31 2003, 23:25
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TrNSZ
post Dec 31 2003, 23:31
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This is the original post, if you are interested. Let's help support these artists who choose to make their music freely available by supporting the Archive and the artists who participate. Download some tracks, buy some albums, and consider making a donation.

It's also worth noting that the Archive recently received a exception to the DMCA so they can preserve vintage software. Remember that the Archive is a non-profit project. Accomplishments such as this could never have happened without user support.

To make a monetary donation, visit the donation page and stop by the contributions center if you have any content to donate to the Archive.

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Dec 31 2003, 23:34
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boojum
post Dec 31 2003, 23:47
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My reservation about D/L'ing from this site is that the files are all lossless, which also means they are large. I have to D/L a large file only to find out that while others may think it is great, I do not. Do you think it would be possible to have short clips in MP3 format? Then I and others could sample these files before spending an hour or so D/L'ing the file?

Just a suggestion. unsure.gif


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ChS
post Dec 31 2003, 23:55
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QUOTE (boojum @ Dec 31 2003, 02:47 PM)
My reservation about D/L'ing from this site is that the files are all lossless, which also means they are large.  I have to D/L a large file only to find out that while others may think it is great, I do not.  Do you think it would be possible to have short clips in MP3 format?  Then I and others could sample these files before spending an hour or so D/L'ing the file?

Just a suggestion.  unsure.gif

I just quickly browsed some stuff and the few downloads I did were in MP3.
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TrNSZ
post Jan 1 2004, 00:00
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Most shows are recorded directly to DAT (and sometimes in rare instances, MiniDisc, which is already using the lossy ATRAC codec) and laid out to be burned directly to CD and then traded among friends. Most people don't have the hard disk space to store all the shows they would want. eTree consists mainly of music fans who are not necessarily computer savvy individuals. They don't want them to make the mistake of transcoding ATRAC->MP3, or worse, MP3->MP3.

eTree forbids the use of any lossy codec due to the fact that these CD's are often copied and they want to avoid the problem of inadvertent transcoding; quotes from eTree:

QUOTE
Etree.org does not host or distribute MP3 files! While MP3 has a good sound for such a small file size, it is a lossy compression scheme. This means that when music is converted into the MP3 format, a certain amount of data is lost and cannot ever be recovered. This data loss can sometimes result as a 'swooshing' type sound in the music. For this reason, you should never make an audio CD-R from MP3 files. Etree.org has found that as CD-R's are traded, MP3-sourced discs are often mislabeled and passed along without any mention of their MP3 lineage.

QUOTE
One of the primary goals of etree.org is to preserve the quality of original concert recordings. To that end, it's important that any compression used be lossless. When uncompressed, a lossless-compressed file is bit-for-bit identical to the original audio file. It's the exact same high quality as what the taper originally "seeded".

Lossy compression schemes are the opposite of lossless. The MP3 format is one such example. Lossy means that parts of the original recording are thrown out as the compressor does its business. The lower the bit-rate of the MP3 file, the more data is thrown out. This results in very small file sizes, but that lost data is gone forever. You can hear this clearly if you listen to low bit-rate MP3 files on a decent set of headphones or stereo system.

The danger of trading mp3's is that, like high-generation cassettes, the sound quality rapidly declines. When you burn a mp3 to CD, give it to someone else, and they rip it to mp3 again, their mp3's are a lot "emptier" than yours. Remember, more and more music data is squeezed out with each mp3conversion. Do this a few times, and you end up with very poor sounding music.

Lossless compression schemes (like Shorten) don't have this problem. The music is always exactly the same as the original, and you can be sure the music won't degrade into white noise a few trades down the line.

If you trade only mp3 files, never converting them to wav or CD and back again, you won't suffer this multi-generataional loss. The problem with this is you can't rely on others with whom you trade to do the same thing. The tempation is always there to burn the mp3's to CD. Once that's done, it's easy to ripmp3's, and the vicious circle starts again. However now that portable mp3 players have become popular, it is no longer necessary to convert mp3's to wav's in order to listen to them.
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TrNSZ
post Jan 1 2004, 00:05
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It should also be mentioned that as the eTree community makes the transition from Shorten to FLAC, they have begun to recommend foobar2000 (before Winamp), for the correct playback of FLAC files on Windows. For details visit the eTree wiki. It should only be a matter of time before the eTree main site links to fb2k.

Note 1: While the wiki is more up to date than the general eTree pages, it seems to be unavailable at the time of the posting, but should be available again soon, and most pages are accessible via Google's cache.

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Jan 1 2004, 00:08
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Althalus
post Jan 1 2004, 00:39
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Something simple like OggPreview would help out the user AND the artist 1000% compared to now.

It would not be a problem with their policy, since no-one would transcode or store a 30 second sample of a song.

And as said earlier (and thought by thousands like me/us). Most people are not interested in testing out new artist when they have to spend hours/maybe even days of downloading just to get a cd from a unknown artist (where the odds are that they won't like it)

IMO its incredible that they have not 'woken up and smelled the roses' and done like every online music store. Have short, low-bitrate clips of the tracks.

It is great that there is such a community, but it is very very 'closed' and doesn't reach the wast majority. I'm not the least surprised that they want more visitors smile.gif
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TrNSZ
post Jan 1 2004, 00:44
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While something like OggPreview may be worthwhile, I am against the idea of short samples.

I've never been able to fairly judge a complete show based on an initial listen. I can't fathom making any determination based on short sample tracks, especially considering that a vast majority of the shows are two or three hours in length, often more. I don't think it would be fair to the artists.

However, if you want to make suggestions, you can do so on the Contact page or via the LMA forum.

Edit 1: There is a thread active right now regarding Ogg/MP3 samples. The trouble is that many artists are against the idea of short samples, and they've stated they will pull all their content if anything is done against their wishes. I can completely understand this. The alternative would be full-length samples in MP3 format, which reintroduces the generation issue with live shows that are often traded and copied. Many seeders and even the tapers who donate their own time and money to making the master recordings have said they would pull out of the community, stop donating material, and request that their shows be pulled. This is discussed in depth in the threads.

The good news is that some bands are allowing lossy samples and the Archive is working to get a system in place that allows the users to respect the wishes of the tapers and the artists. It's important to remember that it's the artists and the tapers at the top of the eTree hierarchy.

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Jan 1 2004, 00:52
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Althalus
post Jan 1 2004, 01:23
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Of course, it's the artists that have the last word and it's up to them to say OK or not. But seriously... i can't fantom anything other than 'its their loss'.
Even if a show is long or not, I as a listener can use a sample to check if its something that i might be interested in.

Just as if I go to a online music store and check out Britney Spears, I would know (by ~95% chance) that if i'm a hardcore deathmetal fan it will probably not be in my interest to download her stuff.

If the show is 1hour or 4 hours, it doesn't matter. It would still give me a feeling of the content of what i'd be downloading.

One user might not download Artist X content because he was 'decived' by the sample. But 10 might instead get his stuff Because of the sample.

Anyways, I can understand the artists have strong feelings on stuff like this. "I want to be judged by the whole package" etc, etc. But Artists are Arists, they are not known for good PR. And it would undoubtably, unquestionably be in their interest to slack a bit on their pride and learn from the industry (and what most end users want).

This is of couse just my opinion, but I personally have used their service very little because of this exact issue. People I've spoken to (artist and regular music listeners) have almost exlusively the same POV.

heh, ugh. This was a long post. Hopefully i didn't voice too much BS tongue.gif
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k.m.krebs
post Jan 1 2004, 01:39
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As to the complaint about lossless compression -- archive.org is also now serving as a hub for many net labels as well, all of which use either ogg or mp3. Quality of encoding varies, but there are hours of excellent and free music to be discovered with more or less something for everyone.

Archive.org Netlabels


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herefornow
post Jan 1 2004, 11:24
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just wanted to say thanks for the post and reminder smile.gif

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evereux
post Jan 1 2004, 12:07
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My main argument for some kind of preview would be so I can hear what the live recording itself sounds like.


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dev0
post Jan 1 2004, 12:14
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Wow! This has grown a lot since I've last looked at it. If you have any chance check ot the Fugazi shows they have.
Thanks for reminding me, TrNSZ.

dev0


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Hanky
post Jan 1 2004, 20:59
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QUOTE (dev0 @ Jan 1 2004, 12:14 PM)
If you have any chance check ot the Fugazi shows they have.

Yeah that's right, Fugazi is great. I saw them live playing here in the Netherlands in the early 90's three times or so.
I downloaded both shows featured (~1 GB tongue.gif ) and it brought back sweet memories for me.

Thanks TrNSZ biggrin.gif
..what a difference a little difference would make... (from Blueprint)

This post has been edited by Hanky: Jan 1 2004, 21:45
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Latexxx
post Jan 1 2004, 21:11
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I found something nice.
http://www.archive.org/audio/audio-details...id=camomille034
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TrNSZ
post Jan 2 2004, 06:40
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I have to credit the Archive for letting me discover Godspeed You Black Emperor!, one of the freshest new bands I've heard in quite awhile - a sometimes odd mix of emo, rock, and classical composition. Also, all the Jack Johnson shows, especially the unreleased studio recording "Live at Latitude32", are just incredible. Strangefolk, another of my favorite "jam" bands has over 100 shows. Check out the 4-20-99 show for a treat. String Cheese Incident has a whopping 575 full concerts available to download, which is great.

There are lots of other bands who have live shows hosted in the LMA I'd recommend, including Cowboy Junkies, Diesel Dog, DJ Logic, Fugazi, Gin Blossoms, New Riders of the Purple Sage, Jimmie's Chicken Shack, Rusted Root, Southern Culture on the Skids, Stolen Ogre, Tenacious D, and Toad The Wet Sprocket.

I don't want to take away from the other bands as I really like many of them, but just picking favorites from quick glance these stand out.

While not available on the Archive due to the artists licensing agreements, but available through the eTree network, you can get lots of Phish and Grateful Dead shows. I really discovered just how talented Phish was by listening to some shows from eTree, and I purchased about 15 or 20 of their LivePhish soundboard recording discs.

Edit 1: I'd recommend bookmarking this page so you can see shows as they are added. Also if you download a show, listen to it fully a few times and post a review. Be sure to include information on the quality of the show and any glitches in the recording. It helps out the community.

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Jan 2 2004, 06:46
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Simba7
post Jan 2 2004, 06:50
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Even a good, LAME-encoded MP3 (--r3mix -b32 -B320) sounds pretty darn good. But using a Lossless codec would be even better.
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TrNSZ
post Jan 2 2004, 07:01
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Simba, please re-read forum rules, and know that --alt-preset standard gives much better output than your command-line and produces files of a smaller size. Recommending any --r3mix recipe is obsolete. If you want the highest quality 320kbps file, use --alt-preset insane.

To get back on topic, it you routinely deal with files downloaded from eTree or the Archive, you need Trader's Friend, a plugin for fb2k that does tagging based on eTree TXT files, and foo_SHN.
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ATLien
post Jan 2 2004, 07:29
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Well, I would think that one of the problems, is the limited selection of groups and tunes that are availible there.

Just my opinion huh.gif

This post has been edited by ATLien: Jan 2 2004, 07:30


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TrNSZ
post Jan 2 2004, 07:34
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If you want more selection to be available, contact your favorite artists and their record labels and distributors and have them allow free taping of their shows, and allow free trade and redistribution of the recordings. Then buy yourself a taper ticket to the next show, a portable DAT deck or high quality MD, maybe some shotgun-style mics, tape a show, and contribute it.

I'm sure your request will go nowhere, but if enough people ask enough times, someone notices. This is how things begin to change. Keep in mind the Archive started with a blank slate, and now they have 8,000 shows - every one of them is user contributed.

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Jan 2 2004, 07:39
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PatchWorKs
post Jan 2 2004, 09:07
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I suggest them to pay for 150-200 and enjoy BitTorrent, instead !
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Simba7
post Jan 2 2004, 09:21
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Ok, TrNSZ.. I'll try that out. No need to get "Snooty". I'm new here and been using that setting for awhile, but would like to find better settings (and preferably a near-lossless setting). I like LAME alot, and it's been a killer codec since I started using it.

I prefer VBR, not this ABR stuff.. If it can compress it smaller and keep the quality, I'm all for it.

In your honest opinion, TrNSZ, what are the best "Non-Preset" VBR settings for LAME (20kHz Max Cutoff)? I'd like to keep the 32-320kbit flexability.

This post has been edited by Simba7: Jan 2 2004, 09:23
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TrNSZ
post Jan 2 2004, 09:29
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Read that post I told you to. =) I don't want you to take offense, but it's better you learn now, rather than later.

There aren't really any good non-preset settings at this point. You should only use other options if you are trying to eliminate a specific problem you've been able to isolate through ABX testing. The presets use specific code tweaks that aren't otherwise available via the command-line options. The alt-preset settings are true VBR, not ABR.

If you need what you would consider a "near-lossless" setting, then stick with --alt-preset insane and you'll be getting the best quality you can squeeze out of MP3 at 320kbps, at least until something better comes out, and you'll hear about it here on HA.

Edit 1: If you would just do some ABX testing, I can almost guarantee you that you won't need to go above alt-preset extreme, and if you do, insane won't fix the problems you hear. You'll most likely have switch to another codec, like Q6 MusePack or LC-AAC.

This post has been edited by TrNSZ: Jan 2 2004, 09:31
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Simba7
post Jan 2 2004, 09:41
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I've been looking into Nero LC-AAC. I would like to maintain compatibility with my MP3 CD Player and my Jeep's Computer System (running WinXP Pro).

Is there a solid DirectShow Codec for Windows Media Player? Also, does Nero LC-AAC support cover art?
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TrNSZ
post Jan 2 2004, 09:52
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Yes, from CoreCodec's CoreAAC project. I won't link to a binary due to Dolby's AAC licensing restrictions, but they are available if you read between the lines on the board enough.

I'm not that familiar with AAC as I don't use it myself, but I know that iTunes AAC tagging allows album art, so I assume it's possible that the standard format does as well.

However, let's get this thread back on topic. Simba7, please start a new thread in the AAC forum if you want to discuss this further, we'll be more than happy to help you out.

Edit 1: Why not use fb2k? If nothing else, it's AAC/MP4 decoder is very well tested, and it has features you won't find elsewhere.

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