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LOL... cable insanity!
mobius
post Nov 25 2003, 16:19
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You may also want to add cryogenically treated cables to your catalog. Apparently, cryogenics are popular these days.

You could also try doping cables with bromine or arsene gas in the presense of a high voltage negative field. Maybe you could pull off some of those precious few electrons to make more room for the ones that carry your music.

Personally, I believe that not coiling your cables would have more effect that any of this shit, but it's only audio frequencies.

mobius


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MO!
post Nov 25 2003, 18:38
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QUOTE (pbirkett @ Nov 24 2003, 11:42 PM)
MO, you are never, ever going to convince people here that it works to be honest, and I have to say, I find the concept fairly outrageous myself. Thats no offence to Tony who offers the service, and power to him if people are going to take up use of the service. However, this is an objective audio site, unpolluted by popular hifi myths, and as such, I can see how such claims look on this site.

PS. Alreet fewtch  tongue.gif

Paul, i'm not trying to convince anyone. I just thought it odd that it was being rubbished without trying!
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MO!
post Nov 25 2003, 18:42
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QUOTE (ScorLibran @ Nov 25 2003, 01:47 AM)
@MO! : I understand your position, but I've personally given at least one reason why the concept would have to be explained in some scientific detail first.  After all, you have to propose a theory before asking people to test it.  They don't give anything beyond the typical mushy "warmer, richer sound" mumbo-jumbo that we've all heard so many times from "audiophiles" in places where more objective descriptions should be used.  What I want to know, as stated before, and before I'll consider testing their idea myself, is How can a variance in the number of electrons that traverse a cable possibly affect it's performance?  You're right that an idea should not be discarded out-of-hand, but I, among others, just need a preliminary [i]technical/i] explanation of how cable "burn-in" can have any positive effect...without the words "warm", "full" and "rich" being used.


I tend to use my ears for testing. Yes facts and figures can be useful (if you know what they mean biggrin.gif ), but ultimately, these flappy things on the side of my head are my measuring tools.

I am not defending the burning thing here, i'm sceptical too. And i've laughed off a few things similar too. But without trying it, well it's a bit unfounded.

This post has been edited by MO!: Nov 25 2003, 19:29
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RaWShadow
post Nov 26 2003, 23:21
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Well the fact that maufacturers say you should burn-in your cables should mean it has some effect??

Like this one

Q. DO AUDIOQUEST CABLES REQUIRE A BREAK-IN PERIOD?
A. Yes. In fact, all cables require a break-in period - even so-called "lampcord" cables that are often supplied with speakers. "Break in" is a
misnomer. What's really happening is that the insulation (or dielectric to give it its proper name) is being "formed". This "forming" is caused by
the dielectric absorbing energy from the conductor when a signal is present (i.e. when current is flowing). Every cable requires something to
separate the negative conductors from the positive conductors - a dielectric. However, because the dielectric is in direct contact with the
conductor, it will interact with the conductor whenever a current flows, absorbing energy from the conductor. What the dielectric does with that
energy once absorbed depends upon its quality. PVC releases the energy back into the conductor a split second later, causing a kind of
"smearing" of the signal. In contrast, Teflon absorbs significantly less energy in the first place, turns most of the energy into heat, and whatever
energy remains is released back into the conductor virtually instantaneously. This causes significantly less damage to the signal which is why -
all things being equal - a cable with Teflon insulation will sound better than the same cable using a lesser dielectric. This absorption of energy
causes the molecules in the dielectric to be rearranged from a random order into a uniform order. Once the molecules are fully rearranged, the
cable is said to be "broken in". The dielectric will now absorb less energy from the conductor, causing less harm, and improving performance. To
ensure that the cable stays "broken-in", there must be a signal present in the cable at all times. It's obviously not practical to have your system
playing 24 hours a day every day, but you can at least leave the components switched on. Even when there is no music playing (i.e. there is no
current flowing down the cable), there is a potential present. This will ensure that your cables (as well as your components) remain at the peak
of their performance. However - and this is the important bit - if there is no signal present in the cable at all (i.e. if the all the components are
switched off, or if the cable is disconnected), the molecules will rearrange themselves back into their random order. In other words, the cable is
almost like new again!
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fewtch
post Nov 26 2003, 23:47
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QUOTE (RaWShadow @ Nov 26 2003, 03:21 PM)
However, because the dielectric is in direct contact with the
conductor, it will interact with the conductor whenever a current flows, absorbing energy from the conductor.

Sounds like the biggest load of B.S. I've ever heard in my life.

How in the hell (pardon my language) is an insulating dielectric going to "absorb energy" from a conductor? What kind of "energy" are they talking about?

Rearranging molecules into uniform order? Leaving power on to the equipment to keep molecules from "randomizing" again?

Utter nonsense. Rubbish. One of those "I have to think hard to picture it, so it must be true" pseudoscientific explanations.

This post has been edited by fewtch: Nov 27 2003, 00:00


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Dologan
post Nov 27 2003, 04:29
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Sounds kinda like my "calibration" story, if you ask me. tongue.gif Only longer and with more "technical" jargon. biggrin.gif
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fewtch
post Nov 27 2003, 05:47
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QUOTE (Dologan @ Nov 26 2003, 08:29 PM)
Sounds kinda like my "calibration" story, if you ask me.  tongue.gif  Only longer and with more "technical" jargon.  biggrin.gif

That "calibration" thing was pretty awesome... smile.gif Someone could probably make some real bucks off that one...


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Daijoubu
post Dec 4 2003, 00:26
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I wonder if the cables can be overclocked as well? laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Daijoubu: Dec 4 2003, 00:26
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Audible!
post Dec 4 2003, 02:27
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QUOTE
I wonder if the cables can be overclocked as well?


Maybe if you futzed around with the hostclock for a digital cable connection you could overclock it, though it would not sound any better or make you enjoy your music more quickly wink.gif

edit: for-> more, I must be cracking up finally

This post has been edited by Audible!: Dec 4 2003, 02:27
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2Bdecided
post Dec 5 2003, 12:15
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I'm going to be burying some cables in the walls at home for audio and video. I've been thinking really carefully about this, because I'll only do it the once. (I think my wife would kill me if I started cutting trenches in the walls after we've painted them - and I don't think I could face it again - once is bad enough!)

Anyway, I was trying to figure out whether I was going to buy anything better than the most basic cables (which meet the spec). The audio is fine - I use 2 core mains cable for the speakers, and it sounds great. For very long but unimportant line-level connections I use the cheapest phono cable I can find (and I can only fault it when I put a nail through it by accident!). For very short runs, I use good cable.

The problem was video. Even the cheapest video cable is 1/metre, and I want to run composite + component (4 video signals) over about 10 metres, and I want to put in some spares in case one gets damaged. So I was looking at 50 for just this cable (as part of a total re-wire of the house).

Just for fun, I tried my "cheapest I could fine" phono cable. I put composite video down one channel, and audio-left down the other channel. 10 metre length. Both emerged at the other end just fine - very well, in fact. I compared it to a direct connection (I was plugging the 10m onto the end of an existing cable) and couldn't see or hear any difference.


Now let's have a reality check here. Audio has a 20kHz bandwidth. Video has a 6MHz bandwidth. If you were to wreck the frequencies above 10kHz, the audio would sound dull. If you were to wreck the frequencies above 3MHz, the video would be monocrhome! If the video were to break through into the audio, it would be painfully obvious - 50Hz hum, and 15kHz line structure.

I didn't see or hear any of these problems. I'm willing to admit that there could have been subtle problems with the video that I missed. But there was no break through from video to audio (running in adjacent conductors!), and the bandwidth of the video was preserved very well in this audio cable.


Which makes me suspect that, whatever other problems may be present, when audio manufacturers say you must buy their expensive line-level cable to preserve the full frequency range of audio, or to prevent interference, they are talking absolute rubbish!


So, I'm going to try using the cheap audio cable for everything, and I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers,
David.
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tigre
post Dec 5 2003, 13:09
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Dec 5 2003, 01:15 PM)
I'm going to be burying some cables in the walls at home for audio and video. I've been thinking really carefully about this, because I'll only do it the once. (I think my wife would kill me if I started cutting trenches in the walls after we've painted them - and I don't think I could face it again - once is bad enough!)

Why don't you burry cable duct (installation pipe, whatever it's called in English) in the walls so you can replace cables easily without becoming divorced?

For clarification - a picture of 'cable duct'

In case it doesn't work, here's the url ('Leerrohr' in German).


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ScorLibran
post Dec 5 2003, 13:24
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QUOTE (tigre @ Dec 5 2003, 07:09 AM)
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Dec 5 2003, 01:15 PM)
I'm going to be burying some cables in the walls at home for audio and video. I've been thinking really carefully about this, because I'll only do it the once. (I think my wife would kill me if I started cutting trenches in the walls after we've painted them - and I don't think I could face it again - once is bad enough!)

Why don't you burry cable duct (installation pipe, whatever it's called in English) in the walls so you can replace cables easily without becoming divorced?

For clarification - a picture of 'cable duct'

In case it doesn't work, here's the url ('Leerrohr' in German).

Is "cable duct" perhaps the same as "conduit" in English?
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2Bdecided
post Dec 5 2003, 15:51
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Yes, it is.

I don't want to do that. Too many corners, too much hassle. We'll have moved before it needs replacing!

Good idea though!

Cheers,
David.
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fewtch
post Dec 5 2003, 16:44
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Dec 5 2003, 04:15 AM)
Now let's have a reality check here. Audio has a 20kHz bandwidth. Video has a 6MHz bandwidth. If you were to wreck the frequencies above 10kHz, the audio would sound dull. If you were to wreck the frequencies above 3MHz, the video would be monocrhome! If the video were to break through into the audio, it would be painfully obvious - 50Hz hum, and 15kHz line structure.

I didn't see or hear any of these problems.

What, you didn't know you could get better sound and picture quality from one of these?

http://www.audionut.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=174

laugh.gif rolleyes.gif laugh.gif


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Dologan
post Dec 5 2003, 20:34
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OMG!! I can't believe anyone can be stupid enough to buy something like that for $78!! That company is some serious ripoff... Look at the cryogenic treatment for CDs and DVDs! laugh.gif How is freezing CD supposed to help in any way???? Cryogenical treatment for cables... First they try to cook them and then freeze them... rolleyes.gif If only the money the moronic audiophiles spend on that crap went to charity...
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fewtch
post Dec 5 2003, 22:48
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QUOTE (Dologan @ Dec 5 2003, 12:34 PM)
OMG!! I can't believe anyone can be stupid enough to buy something like that for $78!! That company is some serious ripoff...

No kidding... somehow I got on their mailing list (dunno how, never bought anything from them) and I receive a brochure once every couple months that's good for a laugh or two...

The power outlet is especially dumb, considering you can't even see the gold plating and feel all warm/fuzzy once it's mounted inside the wall... laugh.gif

P.S. This catchphrase: "...the improvements are not subtle" has probably sold more liters of snake oil than any of the rest... dry.gif

This post has been edited by fewtch: Dec 5 2003, 23:03


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NeoRenegade
post Dec 5 2003, 23:07
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Well at least that line is honest. the improvements indeed aren't subtle. They are non-existent.
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Audible!
post Dec 5 2003, 23:09
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QUOTE
Look at the cryogenic treatment for CDs and DVDs!  How is freezing CD supposed to help in any way????


It's a well-known fact that cryogenically frozen discs of polycarbonate are apt to make their owners fool themselves into believing they sound better!
Especially if they had to pay to get it done.

The question is: what kind of justification could possibly convince someone that a CD will become "better" after being subjected to ultra-low temperatures?
Are the low temperatures making the aluminum data layer become more accurate to the source? LOL.

Luckily, these folks don't seem to even offer an explanation, they just assume you'll think it's better and charge you $5.00 for the favor.
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fewtch
post Dec 5 2003, 23:15
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Here's another "cute" one:

http://www.audionut.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=197

Achieve "a more transparent electrical power" by "avoiding filtration." This 6-outlet, $299.99 "AC distribution center" for the "audio/video purist" is most assuredly and undoubtedly... exactly the same thing as a $4.95 power strip at the local hardware store (except for the cute looks and 'audiophile panache'). laugh.gif
QUOTE
The question is: what kind of justification could possibly convince someone that a CD will become "better" after being subjected to ultra-low temperatures?
Are the low temperatures making the aluminum data layer become more accurate to the source? LOL.

Dunno, but after the cryogenic treatment you may want to apply a healing salve to the CDs for deep moisturizing, conditioning and rejuvenation after coming in out of the cold... ahh, the refreshment! http://www.audionut.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=142

"This allows the CD or DVD player to receive more of the information that is on the disk..."

This site is just too entertaining... biggrin.gif I'd love to know who writes the copy for their website, they could have a career as a sci-fi/fantasy author...

This post has been edited by fewtch: Dec 5 2003, 23:54


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Dologan
post Dec 6 2003, 06:43
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Perhaps they do know their products aren't really special and therefore call their audiophile-ripping company audioNUT? wink.gif
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ScorLibran
post Dec 6 2003, 09:45
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QUOTE (Audible! @ Dec 5 2003, 05:09 PM)
It's a well-known fact that cryogenically frozen discs of polycarbonate are apt to make their owners fool themselves into believing they sound better!
Especially if they had to pay to get it done.

The question is: what kind of justification could possibly convince someone that a CD will become "better" after being subjected to ultra-low temperatures?
Are the low temperatures making the aluminum data layer become more accurate to the source? LOL.

Luckily, these folks don't seem to even offer an explanation, they just assume you'll think it's better and charge you $5.00 for the favor.

You hit on a good point. Unfortunately, in the blended sea of valid information, F.U.D., and commisioned salespeople out there, it has come to pass in the minds of many people that sound quality = the amount of money spent on the audio equipment.

All you have to do to convince many people that Speaker A for $800 sounds twice as good as Speaker B for $400 is to show them the price tags. The same seems to apply to all other types of equipment...amps, cables, CD/DVD players, headphones, connectors, line conditioners, etc. And I bet the same formula applies to video equipment as well.

If I don't find a better job soon in IT-SCM, then I'm going to become a stereo saleman. My specialty will be electron lubricant, ionized conduits, optical disc treatments, and platinum end connectors. My catch line will be "Because your ears are worth it!" biggrin.gif
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tronester
post Dec 8 2003, 06:34
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http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?nu...item=1&mitem=70

Compact Disc that "completely conditions all components (speakers, cables and electronics) in the sound system, removing molecular stresses and residual magnetism while "opening" the system to perform to its full potential."

smile.gif
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Audible!
post Dec 8 2003, 06:57
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I really love how they have a quote from Stereophile to back up the veracity of their claims about how their test CD will remove "glare and grain in cables".

Stereophile never has had much if any credibility, this just proves why.
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fewtch
post Dec 8 2003, 08:11
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QUOTE (tronester @ Dec 7 2003, 10:34 PM)
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?nu...item=1&mitem=70

Compact Disc that "completely conditions all components (speakers, cables and electronics) in the sound system, removing molecular stresses and residual magnetism while "opening" the system to perform to its full potential."

smile.gif

"As far as new components are concerned, the effect is anything but subtle..." what'd I say? This is the standard "buy this now or suffer the horrors of your current system" tagline in many of these sales pitches. If anything, it should be a red flashing warning sign for snake oil... rolleyes.gif

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