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New tuned encoder
Garf
post Oct 15 2001, 02:33
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I've uploaded a new version of my tuned Ogg encoder.

New
-----

- Fixes 'nominal bitrate=999' issue in 160kbps mode
- tuned 350 kbps mode
- 'sortof' tuned 128kbps mode

http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis/oggdropgt2.exe

I'll put out a Linux tarball (and perhaps an oggenc) when I have more time.

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PatchWorKs
post Oct 15 2001, 10:36
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...tune OGG for 40-48 Kbps (32KHz, mono).
Thanks
tongue.gif
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lucpes
post Oct 15 2001, 11:17
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We're getting close to RC3? smile.gif

What I'd like to hear is if ogg compares to mpc at around 170, 180 VBR ...

I know it's better than anything tongue.gif at lower bitrates, but how does it compete against mpc above 160kbps VBR?
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Garf
post Oct 15 2001, 12:10
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QUOTE
Originally posted by PatchWorKs
...tune OGG for 40-48 Kbps (32KHz, mono).
Thanks
tongue.gif


I think RC2 actually already includes such a mode by default, but I don't know if it's enabled in the actual encoder.

When I tested it, 48kbps 32kHz [b]stereo
sounded pretty good, keeping in mind it was 48kbps.

48kbps 32kHz mono should be no problem. Doesn't the standard RC2 encoder have it?

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Garf
post Oct 15 2001, 12:14
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QUOTE
Originally posted by lucpes
We're getting close to RC3? smile.gif


I think so, although my tuned modes are still based on RC2 + some fixes. RC3 incorporates some of the improvements in the tuned modes into the default encoder.

QUOTE
What I'd like to hear is if ogg compares to mpc at around 170, 180 VBR ...

I know it's better than anything tongue.gif at lower bitrates, but how does it compete against mpc above 160kbps VBR?


The tuned 160kbps VBR mode is an attempt to provide an alternative to MPC. It doesn't get the same quality level as MPC does at that bitrate, but it's still pretty good. Beating MPC at it's forte will be hard.

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lucpes
post Oct 15 2001, 13:14
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Thanks for the quick answers... anyway I must say that the builds that have 128kbps limit beat r3mix mp3s...

Good thing that they're limited, 'cause I would start using them instead of mpc... this way I'll have to wait until rc3.
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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Oct 15 2001, 13:42
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and again the same question biggrin.gif
could you compile an oggenc.exe with the new tweaks?
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PatchWorKs
post Oct 15 2001, 13:48
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Garf


I think RC2 actually already includes such a mode by default, but I don't know if it's enabled in the actual encoder.


True, but the encoder (OggEnc v0.8) says: "... the encoder is only tuned for rates of 44.1 and 48 kHz and while other rates will be accepted quality will be significantly degraded."


When I tested it, 48kbps 32kHz stereo sounded pretty good, keeping in mind it was 48kbps. 48kbps 32kHz mono should be no problem.


I have encoded the same wav file (32KHz, mono) through dbpoweramp and was successfull.

Doesn't the standard RC2 encoder have it?

dbpoweramp uses rc2, so the answer is yes.
I change the question in other way:
]i can encode at any KHz/Chans/Bits for sure, but i really want know which of them are more tuned... thanks
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Garf
post Oct 15 2001, 23:52
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Benjamin Lebsanft
and again the same question biggrin.gif
could you compile an oggenc.exe with the new tweaks?


Done. It's up on http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis

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Garf
post Oct 16 2001, 00:05
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QUOTE
Originally posted by PatchWorKs
True, but the encoder (OggEnc v0.8) says: "... the encoder is only tuned for rates of 44.1 and 48 kHz and while other rates will be accepted quality will be significantly degraded."

[...]

i can encode at any KHz/Chans/Bits for sure, but i really want know which of them are more tuned... thanks


The 'only tuned for 44.1/48khz' warning is outdated I think.

Edit: Segher corrected me on this. The encoder is really tuned for 44.1/48khz audio right now. Although lower sampling rates may usually work fine, they will be sensitive to preecho issues and such.

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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Oct 16 2001, 05:23
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Thx Garf smile.gif
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elfin
post Oct 16 2001, 07:15
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It seems to me, that in 350 kbps mode there is the 19 kHz lowpass. Must it be at that high bitrate?

How does Vorbis compare to MPC at 256 - 350 kbps modes?
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Garf
post Oct 16 2001, 08:22
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QUOTE
Originally posted by elfin
It seems to me, that in 350 kbps mode there is the 19 kHz lowpass. Must it be at that high bitrate?


There is no lowpass. It's just that the ATH+masking decides that most of those sounds aren't audible. That's what psychoacoustic compression is all about...

Edit: I checked, and my mode does really encode up to 20kHz if needed, and very sometimes even above that...

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elfin
post Oct 16 2001, 10:27
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Garf


There is no lowpass. It's just that the ATH+masking decides that most of those sounds aren't audible. That's what psychoacoustic compression is all about...

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Isn't the ATH+masking just a little too aggressive at such a high bitrate?

How about adding a switch to manipulate ATH & masking threshold?
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Garf
post Oct 16 2001, 12:07
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QUOTE
Originally posted by elfin

Isn't  the ATH+masking just a little too aggressive at such a high bitrate?


Unless you come up with a clip that you can positively ABX because of a lack of HF, the answer is no.

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elfin
post Oct 16 2001, 14:04
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Garf


Unless you come up with a clip that you can positively ABX because of a lack of HF, the answer is no.

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Though I have a pair of elven
ears, a HQ amp and my loudspeakers weighing 90 kg, I can't ABX at that bitrate.

sad.gif
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Corsair
post Oct 16 2001, 21:40
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How does Vorbis compare to MPC at 256 - 350 kbps modes?

Modes b256 and b350 in RC2 still have some issues, pre-echo mostly. But Garf's tuned b350 really rocks - I tested it with several hard-to-encode test cases, like castanets and fatboy, and there's no pre-echo at all. Actually, I can't find a sample that has artifacts. The bitrate is roughly 300-350kbps, depending on the material you're encoding. I get around ~320kbps for most rock/metal stuff. I think this mode is very high quality and can be used for archiving. Since MPC is also transparent at these bitrates, I think there's no difference between Vorbis (i.e. Garf's tuned b350 mode) and MPC in 300+ kbps range. Definitely better then MP3 with same bitrate. smile.gif

Great job, Garf. I'm very happy with your tuned -b350 mode smile.gif
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niktheblak
post Oct 17 2001, 11:43
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Heck, I even refuse to ABX the 160 kb/s mode. Absolutely too transparent.

Short while ago I whined about rc2's 160kb/s mode sounding horrible at this certain Test Clip, in fact worse than 128kb/s mp3.

Now what is really disturbing here is that the official rc2 oggenc @ 160 tries to maim my Official Test Clip in to a 179kb/s package.
GTuned2 manages to bring peace of mind and smooth harmony at 164kb/s. Serious progress here!

OGG rules wink.gif

Thanks Garf!
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ChristianHJW
post Oct 23 2001, 13:44
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QUOTE
Originally posted by elfin
[B9Though I have a pair of elven ears, a HQ amp and my loudspeakers weighing 90 kg,  I can't ABX at that bitrate.sad.gif


Outing myself : Mine weigh 65 kg each, tube/MOSFET amp, but i simply refuse to torture them with compressed music, even 24/96 is not good enough for my precious music IMHO ...

Compression, whatsoever kind, is good for my soundtracks in my DivX movies, but thats it wink.gif ....
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elfin
post Oct 23 2001, 14:14
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QUOTE
Originally posted by ChristianHJW


Mine weigh 65 kg each, tube/MOSFET amp, but i simply refuse to torture them with compressed music, even 24/96 is not good enough for my precious music IMHO ...

Compression, whatsoever kind, is good for my soundtracks in my DivX movies, but thats it  wink.gif ....



So what do you listen to? Live music only? smile.gif

My loudspeakers are my own design, made after studying the loudspeaker design theory. None of the retail loudspeakers were good enough. Not even the expensive ones, which I could not afford anyway.

Now aren't we off topic? Sorry cool.gif
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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Oct 23 2001, 19:05
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to get back to the topic ohmy.gif
as it is always me, Garf could you compile an oggenc.exe with the rc 2.9 release ?? biggrin.gif
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Garf
post Oct 23 2001, 19:36
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Benjamin Lebsanft
to get back to the topic ohmy.gif
as it is always me, Garf could you compile an oggenc.exe with the rc 2.9 release ?? biggrin.gif


That 'RC2.9' is a special version I did for the BBC.

It takes in 32kHz 16bit stereo and puts out 48kbps files, suitable for streaming over a modem.

You really want _that_ ?

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Benjamin Lebsanf...
post Oct 23 2001, 19:43
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ok, not really biggrin.gif I'll stick with the gt2 version
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jianxin yan
post Oct 24 2001, 03:39
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hi garf.
in rc2, if not a wavelet or wavelet package transform is used?

if used, how deal with blocks connection between mdct and wavelet ?


regards.
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PatchWorKs
post Oct 24 2001, 08:21
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QUOTE
Originally posted by Garf


That 'RC2.9' is a special version I did for the BBC.

It takes in 32kHz 16bit stereo and puts out 48kbps files, suitable for streaming over a modem.

You really want _that_ ?

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YYYYYEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS !!! I REALLY WANT IT
I need 32 kHz, 16 bit, mono please (bitrate: min 32 - max 48 - average 40 kbps)...

Tnx rolleyes.gif
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