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Vorbis development, status & patent issues, PART 2 - Technical discussion
Gabriel
post Sep 25 2003, 14:37
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LAME developer


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From: Nanterre, France
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Moderator comment
Currently the Vorbis patent issue covers these threads:
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 1 - NON-technical discussion
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 2 - Technical discussion (This thread)
/Moderator comment

By looking at this:
http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/20...2/index.html#83
it seems that Xiph (at least in 2000) was open to the idea of disclosing the patent research.
Is this position changed now, or does it still stand?
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Oct 6 2003, 08:30
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Nero MPEG4 developer


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All in all, this is how I perceive the picture... sorta "thinking loud":

Xiph - "We claim Ogg Vorbis is patent free (on the website)"

Q1: "Can you guarantee you are free of patents"

Xiph - "No, nobody can - and you need a expensive lawyer opinion for that"

Q2: "Ok, so how can you claim "patent free" on the website without applying the same logic?"

Xiph - "We are about to define "patent free" after the meeting" (analogy with RMS goes here... )

(still, while not defined what actually is, claim "patent free" is key marketing argument for years and the way to disqualify some better codecs as "codecs with patent issues" like somebody said on this forum - see the problem?)

<personal opinion> Maybe it is better to call Vorbis "license free" or "royalty free" since both statements are true even if some patents are infringed smile.gif </personal opinion>

Q3: "What is the Xiph's stand on US 5,214,742?"

Xiph: "We cannot comment, you need a professional lawyer opinion"

Q4: "But in-depth technical discussion is presented on HA... c"

Xiph: "We said enough... case closed... meeting moves to... next topic"


IMHO, one thing is somewhat unclear - Xiph does not want to go into any technical discussion about Vorbis implementation and current patent situation in US and EU, and especially couple of patents which raise eyebrows - some kind of "no - patent describes THIS WAY, and we did THAT WAY" discussion would be welcome - but unfortunately hard to expect. I understand that stand, probably every Monty's word has very big legal weight since he is the leader and founder of Xiph - and he probably likes to hear lawyer's opinion before he says something about Ogg in public (but somehow I think technical aspects are of no lawyer's concern)

So, let's wait for the new definition of "patent free" in Vorbis - and, maybe some official lawyer's opinion if it is allowed to be said in public smile.gif

This post has been edited by Ivan Dimkovic: Oct 6 2003, 08:33
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- Gabriel   Vorbis development, status & patent issues   Sep 25 2003, 14:37
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 08:12 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 14:43
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Fair enough, let's start a scientific di...   Sep 25 2003, 14:53
- - Ivan Dimkovic   One more thing - the claims are not related to any...   Sep 25 2003, 14:59
- - menno   Claim 1 from patent US5214742: QUOTE 1. In a metho...   Sep 25 2003, 15:20
- - menno   1.3. High-level Decode Process It seems that the ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:41
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, so we have a pretty clear basis for a serious ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:43
- - c_haese   I've already said everything I'm qualified...   Sep 25 2003, 16:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Well, at least there is a nice bunch of factual da...   Sep 25 2003, 16:14
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:36 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 16:50
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Claim 1 does not claim the "windowing/o...   Sep 25 2003, 16:56
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:56 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE First of all, do you also think that claim 1...   Sep 25 2003, 17:22
- - petracci   Yes, Claim 4 is not easy to avoid. Claim 6 points ...   Sep 25 2003, 17:34
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 11:22 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Wouldn't all claims have to apply to mak...   Sep 25 2003, 18:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (petracci @ Sep 25 2003, 11:34 AM)Yes, ...   Sep 25 2003, 23:31
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Sep 26 2003, 01:31 AM)QUOTE ...   Sep 26 2003, 00:23
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I took a deeper look at the patent - It seems that...   Sep 26 2003, 01:05
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the Claim 1...   Sep 26 2003, 01:13
- - ErikS   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 01:13 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 01:48
- - petracci   QUOTE I took a deeper look at the patent - It seem...   Sep 26 2003, 08:59
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE E.g. incorporating the rate in the switching...   Sep 26 2003, 09:05
- - petracci   QUOTE I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the C...   Sep 26 2003, 09:16
- - menno   Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that freque...   Sep 26 2003, 09:19
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE I can obviously not say that either of us is...   Sep 26 2003, 09:21
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:21 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:31
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think it was: QUOTE 5853 Michael J. Smithers,Br...   Sep 26 2003, 09:48
- - petracci   QUOTE Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that ...   Sep 26 2003, 09:49
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:48 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:57
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think we got into one very serous discussion rig...   Sep 26 2003, 10:04
- - petracci   QUOTE I think we got into one very serous discussi...   Sep 26 2003, 10:12
- - Ivan Dimkovic   http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/ffmp...=1.18...   Sep 26 2003, 10:38
- - petracci   QUOTE I dunno about the patent - will take some ti...   Sep 26 2003, 10:49
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so I am ...   Sep 26 2003, 10:53
- - petracci   QUOTE Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so...   Sep 26 2003, 11:01
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If they paid for licensing that patent on wi...   Sep 26 2003, 11:06
- - DSPguru   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 16:53 PM)...   Sep 26 2003, 11:15
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE recently, the official ffmpeg homepage had b...   Sep 26 2003, 11:21
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE e.g. if the complete technological details w...   Sep 26 2003, 12:01
- - petracci   QUOTE Ivan Dimkovic That is also interesting,...   Sep 26 2003, 12:18
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If a respected developer/researcher like Iva...   Sep 26 2003, 12:34
- - petracci   QUOTE You are right - I am not sure,  of cour...   Sep 26 2003, 14:18
- - danchr   QUOTE (DSPguru @ Sep 26 2003, 12:15 PM)QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2003, 11:09
- - c_haese   Okay, let's get back to the scientific problem...   Sep 29 2003, 22:17
- - menno   QUOTE (c_haese @ Sep 29 2003, 10:17 PM)After ...   Sep 30 2003, 14:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, for those with lmiited ability to read: Inste...   Sep 30 2003, 23:09
- - JohnV   Thread re-arranged. This thread is now only for te...   Oct 1 2003, 09:00
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 30 2003, 05:09 PM)...   Oct 1 2003, 23:26
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 1 2003, 10:26 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 2 2003, 09:21
- - JohnV   Ok, I asked Xiph's opinion about this specific...   Oct 5 2003, 23:38
- - Ivan Dimkovic   All in all, this is how I perceive the picture... ...   Oct 6 2003, 08:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 5 2003, 05:38 PM)Ok, I ask...   Oct 6 2003, 20:11
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 6 2003, 10:11 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 6 2003, 21:25
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 6 2003, 03:25 PM)Discussio...   Oct 7 2003, 03:17
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 05:17 AM)I said ...   Oct 7 2003, 04:54
- - jmvalin   QUOTE I was the only one who was talking about tha...   Oct 7 2003, 06:40
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 08:40 AM)OK, fir...   Oct 7 2003, 07:09
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Like I said - if somebody is so sure he avoided pa...   Oct 7 2003, 08:06
- - PatchWorKs   I don't want to be boring, but i have to say i...   Oct 7 2003, 08:34
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 12:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 08:43
- - sthayashi   JohnV, It seems to me that Monty's unofficial...   Oct 7 2003, 14:22
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 07:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 14:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 01:22 PM)JohnV...   Oct 7 2003, 15:02
- - rsilva   Let me try to "preach to the deaf" once ...   Oct 7 2003, 19:17
- - sthayashi   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Oct 7 2003, 06:02 AM)W...   Oct 7 2003, 20:41
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 03:41 PM)QUOTE...   Oct 7 2003, 21:20
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE "Vorbis is a hybrid transform domain ge...   Oct 7 2003, 23:00
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 07:41 PM) QUOT...   Oct 7 2003, 23:04
- - PatchWorKs   From XviD.org website: QUOTE European parliament ...   Oct 8 2003, 09:39
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I don't know what XVid claims (and for what pa...   Oct 8 2003, 10:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Sorry to be so boring...  Sorry if I s...   Oct 8 2003, 11:27
- - Garf   QUOTE (ScorLibran @ Oct 7 2003, 10:20 PM)(Not...   Oct 8 2003, 17:07
- - Diocletian   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 12:01 PM)...   Oct 9 2003, 18:27
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (Diocletian @ Oct 9 2003, 01:27 PM)Do y...   Oct 9 2003, 19:09


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