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Vorbis development, status & patent issues, PART 2 - Technical discussion
Gabriel
post Sep 25 2003, 14:37
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Moderator comment
Currently the Vorbis patent issue covers these threads:
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 1 - NON-technical discussion
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 2 - Technical discussion (This thread)
/Moderator comment

By looking at this:
http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/20...2/index.html#83
it seems that Xiph (at least in 2000) was open to the idea of disclosing the patent research.
Is this position changed now, or does it still stand?
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Sep 26 2003, 09:05
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QUOTE
E.g. incorporating the rate in the switching selection could lead to situations where you do switch when a high rate is available, but do not switch when a low rate is available, even if signal amplitude change tells you that you should switch. And although those methods might be computationally complex, I do see these as a next step in future codecs.


Well, that is used in some of the codec implementations - i.e., if the bit reservoir is near 0, and there would be a high bit loss by using short blocks coder can stick to long blocks and, say, activate TNS if such tool is available (although, TNS will be automatically activated for pre-echo clips)

Also, alternative approach would be to measure the TNS gain / savings, to see if there is a real need for short blocks after the TNS, then measure bit cost and decide whether to switch to short blocks.

Or, third method would be to code both ways (long and short) - and to measure NMR to see if short blocks yielded in signal quality increase (analysis-by-synthesis)


First two methods are different from suggested approach in the patent, but somehow I think that the "function of signal amplitude change" is always incorporated in them - because any pre-echo measurement deals with short-term amplitude change? I dunno if it is legally possible to use this as an argument, probably not - as that would be too general for my taste smile.gif

Third method would use different kind of switching criteria (NMR) but for good pre-echo performance, you would have to have third psychoacosutic model based on very short blocks (like ITU-R BS.1387 / Advanced Model) in order to screen for time-tomain artifacts.

This post has been edited by Ivan Dimkovic: Sep 26 2003, 09:14
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Posts in this topic
- Gabriel   Vorbis development, status & patent issues   Sep 25 2003, 14:37
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 08:12 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 14:43
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Fair enough, let's start a scientific di...   Sep 25 2003, 14:53
- - Ivan Dimkovic   One more thing - the claims are not related to any...   Sep 25 2003, 14:59
- - menno   Claim 1 from patent US5214742: QUOTE 1. In a metho...   Sep 25 2003, 15:20
- - menno   1.3. High-level Decode Process It seems that the ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:41
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, so we have a pretty clear basis for a serious ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:43
- - c_haese   I've already said everything I'm qualified...   Sep 25 2003, 16:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Well, at least there is a nice bunch of factual da...   Sep 25 2003, 16:14
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:36 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 16:50
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Claim 1 does not claim the "windowing/o...   Sep 25 2003, 16:56
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:56 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE First of all, do you also think that claim 1...   Sep 25 2003, 17:22
- - petracci   Yes, Claim 4 is not easy to avoid. Claim 6 points ...   Sep 25 2003, 17:34
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 11:22 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Wouldn't all claims have to apply to mak...   Sep 25 2003, 18:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (petracci @ Sep 25 2003, 11:34 AM)Yes, ...   Sep 25 2003, 23:31
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Sep 26 2003, 01:31 AM)QUOTE ...   Sep 26 2003, 00:23
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I took a deeper look at the patent - It seems that...   Sep 26 2003, 01:05
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the Claim 1...   Sep 26 2003, 01:13
- - ErikS   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 01:13 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 01:48
- - petracci   QUOTE I took a deeper look at the patent - It seem...   Sep 26 2003, 08:59
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE E.g. incorporating the rate in the switching...   Sep 26 2003, 09:05
- - petracci   QUOTE I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the C...   Sep 26 2003, 09:16
- - menno   Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that freque...   Sep 26 2003, 09:19
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE I can obviously not say that either of us is...   Sep 26 2003, 09:21
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:21 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:31
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think it was: QUOTE 5853 Michael J. Smithers,Br...   Sep 26 2003, 09:48
- - petracci   QUOTE Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that ...   Sep 26 2003, 09:49
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:48 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:57
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think we got into one very serous discussion rig...   Sep 26 2003, 10:04
- - petracci   QUOTE I think we got into one very serous discussi...   Sep 26 2003, 10:12
- - Ivan Dimkovic   http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/ffmp...=1.18...   Sep 26 2003, 10:38
- - petracci   QUOTE I dunno about the patent - will take some ti...   Sep 26 2003, 10:49
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so I am ...   Sep 26 2003, 10:53
- - petracci   QUOTE Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so...   Sep 26 2003, 11:01
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If they paid for licensing that patent on wi...   Sep 26 2003, 11:06
- - DSPguru   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 16:53 PM)...   Sep 26 2003, 11:15
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE recently, the official ffmpeg homepage had b...   Sep 26 2003, 11:21
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE e.g. if the complete technological details w...   Sep 26 2003, 12:01
- - petracci   QUOTE Ivan Dimkovic That is also interesting,...   Sep 26 2003, 12:18
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If a respected developer/researcher like Iva...   Sep 26 2003, 12:34
- - petracci   QUOTE You are right - I am not sure,  of cour...   Sep 26 2003, 14:18
- - danchr   QUOTE (DSPguru @ Sep 26 2003, 12:15 PM)QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2003, 11:09
- - c_haese   Okay, let's get back to the scientific problem...   Sep 29 2003, 22:17
- - menno   QUOTE (c_haese @ Sep 29 2003, 10:17 PM)After ...   Sep 30 2003, 14:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, for those with lmiited ability to read: Inste...   Sep 30 2003, 23:09
- - JohnV   Thread re-arranged. This thread is now only for te...   Oct 1 2003, 09:00
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 30 2003, 05:09 PM)...   Oct 1 2003, 23:26
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 1 2003, 10:26 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 2 2003, 09:21
- - JohnV   Ok, I asked Xiph's opinion about this specific...   Oct 5 2003, 23:38
- - Ivan Dimkovic   All in all, this is how I perceive the picture... ...   Oct 6 2003, 08:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 5 2003, 05:38 PM)Ok, I ask...   Oct 6 2003, 20:11
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 6 2003, 10:11 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 6 2003, 21:25
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 6 2003, 03:25 PM)Discussio...   Oct 7 2003, 03:17
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 05:17 AM)I said ...   Oct 7 2003, 04:54
- - jmvalin   QUOTE I was the only one who was talking about tha...   Oct 7 2003, 06:40
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 08:40 AM)OK, fir...   Oct 7 2003, 07:09
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Like I said - if somebody is so sure he avoided pa...   Oct 7 2003, 08:06
- - PatchWorKs   I don't want to be boring, but i have to say i...   Oct 7 2003, 08:34
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 12:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 08:43
- - sthayashi   JohnV, It seems to me that Monty's unofficial...   Oct 7 2003, 14:22
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 07:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 14:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 01:22 PM)JohnV...   Oct 7 2003, 15:02
- - rsilva   Let me try to "preach to the deaf" once ...   Oct 7 2003, 19:17
- - sthayashi   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Oct 7 2003, 06:02 AM)W...   Oct 7 2003, 20:41
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 03:41 PM)QUOTE...   Oct 7 2003, 21:20
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE "Vorbis is a hybrid transform domain ge...   Oct 7 2003, 23:00
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 07:41 PM) QUOT...   Oct 7 2003, 23:04
- - PatchWorKs   From XviD.org website: QUOTE European parliament ...   Oct 8 2003, 09:39
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I don't know what XVid claims (and for what pa...   Oct 8 2003, 10:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Sorry to be so boring...  Sorry if I s...   Oct 8 2003, 11:27
- - Garf   QUOTE (ScorLibran @ Oct 7 2003, 10:20 PM)(Not...   Oct 8 2003, 17:07
- - Diocletian   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 12:01 PM)...   Oct 9 2003, 18:27
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (Diocletian @ Oct 9 2003, 01:27 PM)Do y...   Oct 9 2003, 19:09


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