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Vorbis development, status & patent issues, PART 2 - Technical discussion
Gabriel
post Sep 25 2003, 14:37
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Moderator comment
Currently the Vorbis patent issue covers these threads:
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 1 - NON-technical discussion
Vorbis development, status & patent issues PART 2 - Technical discussion (This thread)
/Moderator comment

By looking at this:
http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/20...2/index.html#83
it seems that Xiph (at least in 2000) was open to the idea of disclosing the patent research.
Is this position changed now, or does it still stand?
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Ivan Dimkovic
post Oct 7 2003, 15:02
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QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 01:22 PM)
JohnV,

It seems to me that Monty's unofficial position on this matter is that patent 5,214,742 is not about Window Switching, but a specific method on when to switch (according to his IRC statement).  To answer the question that you asked on IRC, if a window-switching codec CAN avoid infringment with this patent, then Vorbis is doing so.

The problem is that the wording of that part of the patent is a little vague. I think even you are willing to concede that point. Vorbis doesn't use signal amplitude changes directly to control the window switching.  But since I would dare say that all signals are defined by their amplitude changes, Vorbis is at the very least INDIRECTLY using signal amplitude changes.

So there are two different ways of interpreting this patent, one of them shows Vorbis to be infringing.  Which one is right?  No one is saying officially because no one wants to lose credibility if they're wrong.  I'm betting that Xiph is staying away from it, because they stand to lose no matter how it's cut.

Incidentally, I found two other patents that were interesting:
  • US5,321,729 - which appears to ALSO be a patent for Window Switching... I'm not sure since I find reading patent filings is quite painful.



  • US5,848,391 - which is completely unrelated to Vorbis, but I was wondering whether Musepack infringed on this (I don't know the details of MPC).

QUOTE
It seems to me that Monty's unofficial position on this matter is that patent 5,214,742 is not about Window Switching, but a specific method on when to switch (according to his IRC statement). To answer the question that you asked on IRC, if a window-switching codec CAN avoid infringment with this patent, then Vorbis is doing so.


According to my analysis of claims patent is basically claiming this:

1. Improvement consisting of selecting of window length depending on signal amplitude change

2. Window length is a function of signal amplitude change

3. Length of the window is small for large changes, and big for small changes

4, 5, 6 - deal with the forming of transition "overlap/add" windows

7. Tells the spacing between windows changes depending on the amp. chng.

8. Changes are in time

9. Signals are audio signals

QUOTE
The problem is that the wording of that part of the patent is a little vague. I think even you are willing to concede that point. Vorbis doesn't use signal amplitude changes directly to control the window switching. But since I would dare say that all signals are defined by their amplitude changes, Vorbis is at the very least INDIRECTLY using signal amplitude changes.


Well, defending Xiph position can be done on two basis:

#1 Attacking claim 1 with argument that vorbis do not code spectrum, but residual

#2 Attacking claim 1 with argument that switching criterion is different from "signal amplitude change"


Personally, I think argument #1 can't be very helpful, because the final result before IMDCT in decoder is actual MDCT signal - which is overlapped and added, so the signal is "coded" no matter how the coding representation is done in the encoder/bitstream (LPC+VQ or direct scalar quantization of the coefficients, like in MP3/AAC) - and the patent does not go into the coding implementation at all.

Argument #2 is more serious - and the validity of it is only subject to determining if Parseval's theorem applies - i.e., is checking envelope level change in threshold bands equal to "signal amplitude change"... but we have another problem - patent does not specify whether "signal amplitude change" is in time or frequency domain, or how should checking/triggering be done at all!

It is a very tricky argument I must admit - because, correct me if I wrong, Vorbis triggers to short block if the amplitude level change between consecutive frequency bands in time (meeting claim #8) - this is ... well... at least looks like "changing of the signal amplitude" smile.gif

This post has been edited by Ivan Dimkovic: Oct 7 2003, 15:19
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Posts in this topic
- Gabriel   Vorbis development, status & patent issues   Sep 25 2003, 14:37
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 08:12 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 14:43
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Fair enough, let's start a scientific di...   Sep 25 2003, 14:53
- - Ivan Dimkovic   One more thing - the claims are not related to any...   Sep 25 2003, 14:59
- - menno   Claim 1 from patent US5214742: QUOTE 1. In a metho...   Sep 25 2003, 15:20
- - menno   1.3. High-level Decode Process It seems that the ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:41
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, so we have a pretty clear basis for a serious ...   Sep 25 2003, 15:43
- - c_haese   I've already said everything I'm qualified...   Sep 25 2003, 16:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Well, at least there is a nice bunch of factual da...   Sep 25 2003, 16:14
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:36 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 16:50
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Claim 1 does not claim the "windowing/o...   Sep 25 2003, 16:56
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 05:56 PM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE First of all, do you also think that claim 1...   Sep 25 2003, 17:22
- - petracci   Yes, Claim 4 is not easy to avoid. Claim 6 points ...   Sep 25 2003, 17:34
- - c_haese   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 25 2003, 11:22 AM)...   Sep 25 2003, 17:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Wouldn't all claims have to apply to mak...   Sep 25 2003, 18:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (petracci @ Sep 25 2003, 11:34 AM)Yes, ...   Sep 25 2003, 23:31
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Sep 26 2003, 01:31 AM)QUOTE ...   Sep 26 2003, 00:23
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I took a deeper look at the patent - It seems that...   Sep 26 2003, 01:05
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the Claim 1...   Sep 26 2003, 01:13
- - ErikS   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 01:13 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 01:48
- - petracci   QUOTE I took a deeper look at the patent - It seem...   Sep 26 2003, 08:59
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE E.g. incorporating the rate in the switching...   Sep 26 2003, 09:05
- - petracci   QUOTE I mean - in my opinion, the purpose of the C...   Sep 26 2003, 09:16
- - menno   Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that freque...   Sep 26 2003, 09:19
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE I can obviously not say that either of us is...   Sep 26 2003, 09:21
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:21 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:31
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think it was: QUOTE 5853 Michael J. Smithers,Br...   Sep 26 2003, 09:48
- - petracci   QUOTE Doesn't Parseval's Theorem say that ...   Sep 26 2003, 09:49
- - petracci   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 10:48 AM)...   Sep 26 2003, 09:57
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I think we got into one very serous discussion rig...   Sep 26 2003, 10:04
- - petracci   QUOTE I think we got into one very serous discussi...   Sep 26 2003, 10:12
- - Ivan Dimkovic   http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/ffmp...=1.18...   Sep 26 2003, 10:38
- - petracci   QUOTE I dunno about the patent - will take some ti...   Sep 26 2003, 10:49
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so I am ...   Sep 26 2003, 10:53
- - petracci   QUOTE Actually, I never tried that FFMPEG code, so...   Sep 26 2003, 11:01
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If they paid for licensing that patent on wi...   Sep 26 2003, 11:06
- - DSPguru   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 16:53 PM)...   Sep 26 2003, 11:15
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE recently, the official ffmpeg homepage had b...   Sep 26 2003, 11:21
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE e.g. if the complete technological details w...   Sep 26 2003, 12:01
- - petracci   QUOTE Ivan Dimkovic That is also interesting,...   Sep 26 2003, 12:18
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE If a respected developer/researcher like Iva...   Sep 26 2003, 12:34
- - petracci   QUOTE You are right - I am not sure,  of cour...   Sep 26 2003, 14:18
- - danchr   QUOTE (DSPguru @ Sep 26 2003, 12:15 PM)QUOTE ...   Sep 27 2003, 11:09
- - c_haese   Okay, let's get back to the scientific problem...   Sep 29 2003, 22:17
- - menno   QUOTE (c_haese @ Sep 29 2003, 10:17 PM)After ...   Sep 30 2003, 14:03
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Ok, for those with lmiited ability to read: Inste...   Sep 30 2003, 23:09
- - JohnV   Thread re-arranged. This thread is now only for te...   Oct 1 2003, 09:00
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 30 2003, 05:09 PM)...   Oct 1 2003, 23:26
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 1 2003, 10:26 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 2 2003, 09:21
- - JohnV   Ok, I asked Xiph's opinion about this specific...   Oct 5 2003, 23:38
- - Ivan Dimkovic   All in all, this is how I perceive the picture... ...   Oct 6 2003, 08:30
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 5 2003, 05:38 PM)Ok, I ask...   Oct 6 2003, 20:11
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 6 2003, 10:11 PM)QUOTE (...   Oct 6 2003, 21:25
- - jmvalin   QUOTE (JohnV @ Oct 6 2003, 03:25 PM)Discussio...   Oct 7 2003, 03:17
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 05:17 AM)I said ...   Oct 7 2003, 04:54
- - jmvalin   QUOTE I was the only one who was talking about tha...   Oct 7 2003, 06:40
- - JohnV   QUOTE (jmvalin @ Oct 7 2003, 08:40 AM)OK, fir...   Oct 7 2003, 07:09
- - Ivan Dimkovic   Like I said - if somebody is so sure he avoided pa...   Oct 7 2003, 08:06
- - PatchWorKs   I don't want to be boring, but i have to say i...   Oct 7 2003, 08:34
- - Dibrom   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 12:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 08:43
- - sthayashi   JohnV, It seems to me that Monty's unofficial...   Oct 7 2003, 14:22
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Oct 7 2003, 07:34 AM)I do...   Oct 7 2003, 14:36
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 01:22 PM)JohnV...   Oct 7 2003, 15:02
- - rsilva   Let me try to "preach to the deaf" once ...   Oct 7 2003, 19:17
- - sthayashi   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Oct 7 2003, 06:02 AM)W...   Oct 7 2003, 20:41
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 03:41 PM)QUOTE...   Oct 7 2003, 21:20
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE "Vorbis is a hybrid transform domain ge...   Oct 7 2003, 23:00
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE (sthayashi @ Oct 7 2003, 07:41 PM) QUOT...   Oct 7 2003, 23:04
- - PatchWorKs   From XviD.org website: QUOTE European parliament ...   Oct 8 2003, 09:39
- - Ivan Dimkovic   I don't know what XVid claims (and for what pa...   Oct 8 2003, 10:07
- - Ivan Dimkovic   QUOTE Sorry to be so boring...  Sorry if I s...   Oct 8 2003, 11:27
- - Garf   QUOTE (ScorLibran @ Oct 7 2003, 10:20 PM)(Not...   Oct 8 2003, 17:07
- - Diocletian   QUOTE (Ivan Dimkovic @ Sep 26 2003, 12:01 PM)...   Oct 9 2003, 18:27
- - ScorLibran   QUOTE (Diocletian @ Oct 9 2003, 01:27 PM)Do y...   Oct 9 2003, 19:09


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