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Samples chosen, for the 64kbps test
rjamorim
post Aug 18 2003, 07:10
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Hello.

I'd like to announce what I "decided" after testing all the samples you guys uploaded to the "call for samples" thread (thanks a lot)

Actually, it's not a decision yet. That's why I'm posting my thoughts here, so that I can get constructive criticism.

So, here's what I'm thinking as a sample suite for the 64kbps test (and maybe other tests)

All samples, after encoded with Vorbis or HE AAC, stay between 70 and 60kbps, with one exception that goes a little beyond 70 (Waiting). I tried to represent a wide range of styles while keeping an eye at bitrates.

Update: The Chopin sample (piano solo) has a much bigger bitrate variation (44kbps for vorbis), but that reflects vorbis' default behaviour on those kinds of samples, so there is not much that can be done on that aspect.

"Heavy Stuff" (Punk Rock): My Blood Rusts
http://www.rc55.com/friends/tobias/files/a...ample20sec.flac
Solo Organ: Illinois
http://www.phong.org/audio/Illinois.flac
Latino (Salsa): La Voz de la Experiencia
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=126081
Orchestral: Rite of Spring
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125086
"Easy Listening"(?): Big Yellow Taxi
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125150
Electronic (New Wave): Enola Gay
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125204
Pop(?), lots of details: New York City
http://www.phong.org/audio/NewYorkCity.flac
Electronic (House) - Da Funk
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125332
Extreme Metal: Gone
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125356
Heavy Orchestral w/ Drums: Scars Left by Time
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125873
Rock: Waiting
http://ff123.net/samples/Waiting.flac
Piano Solo: Chopin Polonaise in D Minor (or moll) Op. 71, No. 1
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=post&id=125004

That's it.

Now, the sample suite is "soft-frozen", meaning it will only change if a very good reason is brought to my attention.

In some days I'll start a pre-test discussion thread.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best regards;

Roberto.

This post has been edited by rjamorim: Aug 20 2003, 23:30


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guruboolez
post Aug 18 2003, 11:33
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I'm very limited in bandwith (and time), and then I can't DL for the moment the 11 'choosen' sample. I have a question : is there any low volume, or very quiet, sample ? It may be interesting to have one, in order to check the performance of these low-bitrate encoders, generally more tuned for pop/rock/dynamically-compressed music than for classical adagios. I would be really nice, and maybe more interesting than a melting pot of various genre but with uniform volume.

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Aug 18 2003, 11:44
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tigre
post Aug 18 2003, 12:06
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I've tried many piano samples (ogg + he-aac as suggested).
With ogg the highest bitrate (on a 20 sec. sample) I've been able to get is 48 kpbs.
The best ogg/he-aac ratio was ogg: 47kbps/he-aac: 70kbps.

In fequency view piano music doesn't have much content > 10khz - I guess this is the reason for the behaviour of oggenc. To get higher bitrates I see some possibilites:

- Use a piano recording with much (high frequency) noise.
- Use a piano recording with some percussion (e.g. jazz).
- Use something else with other sound characteristics like trumpet, (classical/flamenco) guitar, string quartet, harpsichord, bandoneon. (I wouldn't use harpsichord as it's not as common as e.g. guitar or strings IMO and probably a bit too hard to encode @ 64kbps given the problems it causes at high bitrates).


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AstralStorm
post Aug 18 2003, 13:22
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I have a good trumpet sample, please wait...

/EDIT\
Better, but still not there - Vorbis 41kbps, HE-AAC 63kbps, MP3PRO 46kbps.
I think if it were louder, it would take much more space. I'll amplify it.
No difference when amplified. sad.gif

Okay, found another one - will Aida do? There's mostly trumpet in it...
Even better - Vorbis 46 kbps, HE-AAC 60kbps, MP3PRO 51kbps.
Uploading...
\EDIT/

This post has been edited by AstralStorm: Aug 18 2003, 13:57


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tigre
post Aug 18 2003, 14:07
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I've kept on trying. My results (best bitrate-wise):

Flamenco: 2 Guitars: Ogg 53kbps, HE-AAC 70kbps
Tango/Milonga: 1 Bandoneon + 1 Guitar: Ogg 54-65kbps, HE-AAC 59-70kbps.
E.g. one good sample (20 sec.) bitrate-wise would be: Ogg 63kbps, HE-AAC 66kbps
If you're interested tell me and I'll upload it/them. I just don't want to waste HA's bandwith/space for nothing.


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AstralStorm
post Aug 18 2003, 14:52
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Heck, if I still had my piano (antique, in bad shape - 1939, somewhat out of tune)
I could play something that gives high bitrate - high volume variations,
wide range of frequencies - just like Prokofiev's Morning laugh.gif
Then record it with a portable tape recorder using mid-fi stereo microphone, rip it and encode.
Unfortunately, it isn't possible now. sad.gif

This post has been edited by AstralStorm: Aug 18 2003, 14:53


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dev0
post Aug 18 2003, 14:59
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Congratulations to your own test set and thanks for all the effort you put into your tests.

After listening to the clips for a couple of times, I think they are a lot less annoying to my ears than ff123's test set, but I might have just gotten tired of it.

dev0
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Q!
post Aug 18 2003, 15:33
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how about this one?
http://www.icpnet.pl/~q_ba/tb2k3.flac
mike oldfield - introduction (tubular bells 2003)


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Gecko
post Aug 18 2003, 15:46
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Too bad there isn't any celtic/irish music in there. But that's just me complaining; can't please everybody. smile.gif

That's a nice selection of samples though. I don't like to listen to mybloodrusts, but I see how it can be very interesting as a test case.
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tigre
post Aug 18 2003, 16:03
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I've tried another classical / flamenco guitar CD: 2 guitars live, channels are very much seperated (one guitar 95% left, one 95% right). Bitrates this time: Ogg 60-75, HE-AAC 80->90; a typical 20 sec. sample: Ogg 64kbps, HE-AAC 81kbps.

To me it seems like string instruments like piano or guitar (probably harp too) just give these different bitrates while with most other music bitrates are closer. One solution (to make "bitrate-moaners" shut up) could be to take a higher quality setting with ogg (e.g. q0.10) so the final average bitrates for the entire suite (including a piano sample) match.


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john33
post Aug 18 2003, 16:40
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Having hunted through my solo piano collection, the best I can manage is Rachmaninov's Piano Sonata No. 2 in B Flat Minor - 75 HE-AAC, 44 ogg. I have an album containing 2 Franz Schubert Piano Sonatas played by Alfred Brendel where there isn't a single track that manages better than 36kbps in ogg at 'q 0'!! rolleyes.gif


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AstralStorm
post Aug 18 2003, 16:50
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Which MP3Pro plugin will be used and with what quality setting?
My MP3Pro bitrate measurements were done with CEPv2@30 (55-70kbps).

This post has been edited by AstralStorm: Aug 18 2003, 17:21


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phong
post Aug 18 2003, 19:20
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One concern - I don't believe any of those eleven have female vocals (though I might remember some incorrectly.)


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rjamorim
post Aug 18 2003, 21:24
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QUOTE (Gecko @ Aug 18 2003, 11:46 AM)
Too bad there isn't any celtic/irish music in there. But that's just me complaining; can't please everybody. smile.gif

Well, I checked out your irish samples. Bitrates wouldn't work.

Geraldine MacGowan & Friends - January Snows - Timeless
HE AAC: 56kbps Vorbis: 58kbps

Geraldine MacGowan & Friends - Sweet Biddy Daly - The Cliffs of Moher - Timeless
HE AAC: 56kbps Vorbis: 67kbps

Who knows, maybe in my next test? smile.gif

QUOTE
One concern - I don't believe any of those eleven have female vocals (though I might remember some incorrectly.)


True. You suggest something to be replaced? Actually, people didn't upload many samples with female vocals, AFAI remember.

QUOTE
Which MP3Pro plugin will be used and with what quality setting?
My MP3Pro bitrate measurements were done with CEPv2@30 (55-70kbps).


Indeed, I'll use CEP v2.1@30
I didn't calculate the bitrates on MP3pro (as I did with Vorbis and HE AAC) because I don't know of any way of doing batch encoding with CEP and I can't be arsed to load sample-by-sample, wait for the graph to be built, then encode.

QUOTE
- Use something else with other sound characteristics like trumpet, (classical/flamenco) guitar, string quartet, harpsichord, bandoneon. (I wouldn't use harpsichord as it's not as common as e.g. guitar or strings IMO and probably a bit too hard to encode @ 64kbps given the problems it causes at high bitrates).


That's OK. Point is, I wanted a solo instrument in the test (The Illinois sample doesn't count, that's more of a joke), and Piano came to my mind. If only the codecs didn't behave so badly distributing bitrates... wink.gif

Indeed, Harpsichord is more of a problem instrument, like harmonica.

Well, so, looking for solo instruments. Whatever you want (as long as it's somewhat popular). Strings quartet would to too. Any suggestions?

QUOTE
I have a question : is there any low volume, or very quiet, sample ?


No, that was to be the piano sample. Although a strings quartet would probably also fit.

QUOTE
One solution (to make "bitrate-moaners" shut up) could be to take a higher quality setting with ogg (e.g. q0.10) so the final average bitrates for the entire suite (including a piano sample) match.


True. But, still, I don't think only .10 would make a big difference. If the piano sample is at 44, it'll go, at best, to 50kbps, which is still almost 15kbps lower than the test's nominal bitrate.

QUOTE
Having hunted through my solo piano collection, the best I can manage is Rachmaninov's Piano Sonata No. 2 in B Flat Minor - 75 HE-AAC, 44 ogg. I have an album containing 2 Franz Schubert Piano Sonatas played by Alfred Brendel where there isn't a single track that manages better than 36kbps in ogg at 'q 0'!!


Shame on Vorbis. Xiph is conspiring to ruin my tests laugh.gif

Well, thanks for all your comments. Now, looking forward to your ideas. smile.gif

Best regards;

Roberto.


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AstralStorm
post Aug 18 2003, 22:06
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Would you like 'Tocca in D minor, BWV 565' by J. S. Bach?
Pure organs, bitrates: Vorbis 64k, MP3Pro@40 60k, HE-AAC 66k

You should use MP3Pro quality 40, because at 30 all samples I've tried produce too low bitrate (50-65k).

This post has been edited by AstralStorm: Aug 19 2003, 00:42


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rjamorim
post Aug 18 2003, 22:14
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QUOTE (AstralStorm @ Aug 18 2003, 06:06 PM)
Would you like 'Tocca in D minor, BWV 565' by J. S. Bach?
Pure organs, bitrates: Vorbis 64k, MP3Pro@40 60k, HE-AAC ??k (temporary problems)

Sure. All samples are welcome.

QUOTE
You should use MP3Pro quality 40, because at 30 all samples I've tried produce too low bitrate (50-65k).


Yes, I'll find the best MP3pro setting after the test suite is frozen. Thanks for the hint.

Regards;

Roberto.


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AstralStorm
post Aug 18 2003, 22:29
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Sorry, my guess over MP3Pro was wrong.
Quality 30, all stereo image options checked, no CRC, High Quality is okay.
I have obviously tried too few samples. smile.gif

Tocca MP3Pro@30 - 52k.


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Ariakis
post Aug 18 2003, 22:45
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For batch conversion in CEP, you can go to... Options -> Scripts & Batch Processing... then open the collection "batch utilities.scp". Optionally, you could do File -> Batch File Convert, in 2.1 at least.
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rjamorim
post Aug 18 2003, 23:29
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QUOTE (AstralStorm @ Aug 18 2003, 06:29 PM)
Sorry, my guess over MP3Pro was wrong.
Quality 30, all stereo image options checked, no CRC, High Quality is okay.
I have obviously tried too few samples. smile.gif

Well, things are getting strange here then.

I ran the sample suite on CEP, and the average at quality 40 was 66,1kbps.
At quality 30 it was 60,3.

@Ariakis: Thanks for the hint smile.gif


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phong
post Aug 18 2003, 23:35
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 18 2003, 08:24 PM)
QUOTE
One concern - I don't believe any of those eleven have female vocals (though I might remember some incorrectly.)

True. You suggest something to be replaced? Actually, people didn't upload many samples with female vocals, AFAI remember.

Oh sure, let me figure out the hard problems. tongue.gif If somebody left me in charge, the test would include 487 samples.

We could kill two birds with one stone I suppose (a sample that is a solo piano or something for part, and female vocals for another part). OR, add the female vocals sample instead of the solo piano sample. The first part of gone.flac is just a piano. OK, maybe it's not the best example of piano music...

The three Lamb samples I had (All In Your Hands, Bonfire, The Little Things) were female vocals and come out with reasonable vorbis bitrates (sorry don't have an AAC encoder). Also, some of those Celtic samples were really great and had female vocals, though I guess the bitrates don't work.

I've got a couple things I can dig through that are female vocals and overlap with some of the other samples. Skunk Anansie could replace one of the heavy things, or maybe some Cardigans to replace one of the pop/easy listening things. Also got Björk, No Doubt, some miscelaneous things... Ah hell, I'll start making up some samples and maybe something will be useful. Who knows.

This post has been edited by phong: Aug 18 2003, 23:35


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AstralStorm
post Aug 19 2003, 00:16
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 19 2003, 12:29 AM)
I ran the sample suite on CEP, and the average at quality 40 was 66,1kbps.
At quality 30 it was 60,3.

I've mixed both quality settings by mistake, bleh. headbang.gif

I'll post another orchestra sample - Total Annihilation - Vorbis 62k, MP3Pro 63k, HE-AAC 77k
/EDIT\
A real bitrate bloater it is. Sounds bad with all codecs to me. smile.gif
\EDIT/

Current one (Rite of Spring) isn't very melodic. (sounds Matrix-like to me tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by AstralStorm: Aug 19 2003, 10:07


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Gecko
post Aug 19 2003, 09:29
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Aug 18 2003, 10:24 PM)
Well, I checked out your irish samples. Bitrates wouldn't work.

If you are interested, I could hunt for some more similar samples, allthough I can only verify ogg bitrates.
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rjamorim
post Aug 19 2003, 09:36
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QUOTE (Gecko @ Aug 19 2003, 05:29 AM)
If you are interested, I could hunt for some more similar samples, allthough I can only verify ogg bitrates.

Well, only if it ends up replacing one of the others samples. Does anyone have any suggestion of what should be replaced?


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rjamorim
post Aug 20 2003, 22:30
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Just something that has been brought to my attention:

I am under the impression that, if I try too hard to find a sample where Vorbis behaves well bitrate-wise, it'll be like if I was favouring it. The opinion of this person that talked to me about this is that, if vorbis doesn't know how to properly allocate bitrates on some kinds of sample, it is only proper that it ends up punished in the final score.

My original goal when striving to make bitrates match 64kbps average was to avoid criticism, but I would change my mind on that subject for the sake of the test obtaining more credibility.

So, what are your thoughts on this subject?

Regards;

Roberto.


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kl33per
post Aug 20 2003, 22:44
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I tend to agree. If HE AAC decides that it needs a fair amount of bit rate, and Vorbis thinks it doesn't, then fair enough. I would probably stick with your original choice, as it seems almost impossible to get a piano solo with equivalent Vorbis/HE AAC bitrates anyway. Why have a variable bit rate test if your trying to make your samples as close to 64kbps as possible?

BTW, glad to see 'The Rite Of Spring' was included.

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