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Subjective vs Objective opinions, post your favourite links / experiences
greynol
post Mar 24 2009, 22:23
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QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 13:52) *
Chris used to post here, interestingly enough. He got yelled at for blatant site advertisement, but he had the damn good sense to leave the subjective stuff out of his posts from what I recall.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535116
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535296

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 24 2009, 22:24
Reason for edit: Added quote because my post started a new page.


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FasterThanEver
post Mar 24 2009, 23:42
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QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 24 2009, 13:34) *
This is my first post so hello to all.

Ashley


I enjoyed your posts at the CA forum. I'm glad you'll be posting on another forum I follow.

I read the CA forum from the beginning but I never signed up or posted because I didn't feel I fit in that crowd.

Bill
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Axon
post Mar 24 2009, 23:59
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QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 24 2009, 16:23) *
QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 13:52) *
Chris used to post here, interestingly enough. He got yelled at for blatant site advertisement, but he had the damn good sense to leave the subjective stuff out of his posts from what I recall.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535116
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535296


Ah, yes, how could I forget.

I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.
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shenzi
post Mar 25 2009, 11:45
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QUOTE (pdq @ Mar 24 2009, 20:30) *
Hello shenzi, and welcome.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rationalist", but to me objective means based only on what can be proven by unbiased testing, which to me is the heart and soul of HA.

Rational to me implies what the mind is willing to accept, not necessarily what the evidence shows, because what is shown by the evidence may sometimes seem irrational.



Hi - By rational I mean from logical argument based on objective evidence. That includes accepting conclusions which seem unintuitive (a lot of scientific theories fall into that category).
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Ashley James
post Mar 25 2009, 12:02
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QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 23:59) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Mar 24 2009, 16:23) *
QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 13:52) *
Chris used to post here, interestingly enough. He got yelled at for blatant site advertisement, but he had the damn good sense to leave the subjective stuff out of his posts from what I recall.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535116
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=535296


Ah, yes, how could I forget.

I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.


Audioengr in many ways shows the dangers of subjective dominance of discussions in my view. It's a tiny leap from "believing the evidence of ones ears" to justifying ones beliefs with pseudo scientific claptrap, simply because one doesn't have sufficient understanding to recognise it as such.

I reckon the audio industry is way behind the Consumer or Pro electronics industry because much of it has driven off proper engineers and discredited any rational means of assessing products.

I once saw an article about an experiment done by a University to prove the value of intuition. There was none above a random guess and that's not a good way to design a 747 or a piece of electronics IMO. It's all measurable and provable and subjectivists don't like that, they want magic.

Ash

This post has been edited by Ashley James: Mar 25 2009, 13:05
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pdq
post Mar 25 2009, 13:40
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QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 17:59) *
I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.

Personally I find it amusing when a forum labels its members as "Gold" or "Platinum".
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WUXGA
post Mar 25 2009, 16:14
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I found that hilarious as well.

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 26 2009, 17:18
Reason for edit: Removed useless quote.
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tfarney
post Mar 26 2009, 10:48
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Hi folks. Another refugee from Computer Audiophile (and Head Fi) here. So Chris was blatantly self-promoting here? Who needs Shakespear for irony, huh? Think I'll go read some threads...

Tim
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odigg
post Mar 26 2009, 14:27
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QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 22 2009, 21:29) *
I kind of wonder if this is some kind of trend, with Head-Fi basically feeding HydrogenAudio - kind of like how Ayn Rand books tend to feed libertarianism (though the two things are very substantially different). The headphone amp market in particular is.... very curious. It's the cheapest way for the average joe to buy in to "the good life" of high fidelity - and so it's also the cheapest way for said joe to dismiss it as mostly claptrap. All jokes about Patrick82 besides, you see far, far more pro-DBT statements on Head-Fi that on virtually all other audio forums save here.


I do agree with you that the sheer extremity of claims on many audiophile sites can drive people away. When I first got into audio, I did believe that amps could provide audibly different sound signatures. In particular, I believed NAD amps were warm. However, when I started to read about "night and day" differences between power cables, my BS detector flared up. I got even more confused when I tried some "dedicated headphone amp required" high impedance headphones and heard no difference whatsoever with the headphones plugged straight into my sound card or through a DAC+headphone amp combo. When I combined all this with the amount of money that would go through my hands if I believed the claims of audiophilia, I started looking for more information. Then I learned about DBT in audio. And well, now I'm here.

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tfarney
post Mar 26 2009, 16:40
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QUOTE
Audioengr in many ways shows the dangers of subjective dominance of discussions in my view. It's a tiny leap from "believing the evidence of ones ears" to justifying ones beliefs with pseudo scientific claptrap, simply because one doesn't have sufficient understanding to recognise it as such.


Ash, my friend, if you're saying audioengr believes the evidence of his own ears, I think you're being too kind. Audiengr sells 3 foot mains cables for $1200. It's more likely he believes in the gullibility of his customer base.


Tim
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Ashley James
post Mar 26 2009, 19:36
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He certainly believes in himself and I think it is obvious that he's talking rubbish but people on CA were convinced and it was those who I was referring to as believing the "evidence of their ears".

In view of his track record elsewhere I'm surprised that he wasn't censored. I was for daring to suggest that in a proper comparison, it was virtually impossible to hear any differences between the top manufacturers evaluation boards and that these were designed to show DACs at their best. I don't accept that big differences occur between commercial DACs unless their manufacturers have screwed up, which is less common than it used to be.

We pay less than 2.00 for mains leads and give them away with our products. If anyone suggests an ABX test is necessary to prove they are as good as Nugent's I shall stick my head in the lavatory and keep flushing till I drown!

Ash

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 26 2009, 19:52
Reason for edit: Removed useless full quotation of previous post.
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hybris
post Mar 27 2009, 10:42
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QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 24 2009, 23:59) *
Ah, yes, how could I forget.

I'm churning through the CA forums to see what juice I can squeeze. I'm really sorry you guys have to deal with audioengr. He attempted to mix it up with real engineers at PSW once and got his ass smoked over aged woods and handed back to him on a stick. A truly timeless thread.


Fantastic thread - thanks biggrin.gif


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tfarney
post Mar 27 2009, 13:29
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QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 26 2009, 14:36) *
If anyone suggests an ABX test is necessary to prove they are as good as Nugent's I shall stick my head in the lavatory and keep flushing till I drown!

Ash


No, but someone might suggest an ABX test to prove that $1200 mains cables are fraud.

Tim
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pdq
post Mar 27 2009, 15:17
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I believe someone already posted here the results of such a test that they made, but I don't have the link.
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Kees de Visser
post Mar 27 2009, 15:21
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QUOTE (Ashley James @ Mar 26 2009, 19:36) *
If anyone suggests an ABX test is necessary to prove they are as good as Nugent's I shall stick my head in the lavatory and keep flushing till I drown!
It's always a good idea to clean your ears before doing a listening test smile.gif
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shakey_snake
post Mar 27 2009, 17:21
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I've been drug into a fun argument about this very subject here.
Lot of lulz inside.


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pdq
post Mar 27 2009, 18:16
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So how did Joel become a Supervisor at neowin.net (other than an obscene number of posts)?
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shakey_snake
post Mar 28 2009, 04:58
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Not for his audio skills, obviously.


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shenzi
post Mar 28 2009, 13:50
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I believe James Randi has got involved in a cable listening test but I don't think the challenge has happened yet.

http://www.randi.org
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Mar 29 2009, 11:51
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QUOTE (shenzi @ Mar 28 2009, 08:50) *
I believe James Randi has got involved in a cable listening test but I don't think the challenge has happened yet.

http://www.randi.org



All of the cable reviewers and manufacturers ran the other way.

No fools, they. ;-)
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krabapple
post Mar 31 2009, 22:00
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This CD player thread appears to be a classic recent example of disproportionate subjectivist outrage at the mere idea that maybe you can't always trust your ears . (Props to stereocentral )

This post has been edited by krabapple: Mar 31 2009, 22:04
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pdq
post Mar 31 2009, 22:16
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Mar 31 2009, 17:00) *
This CD player thread appears to be a classic recent example of disproportionate subjectivist outrage at the mere idea that maybe you can't always trust your ears . (Props to stereocentral )


"There are still a great number of people who do believe that all CD players do sound virtually the same. Many of these people also believe in the old DBT. No point arguing with them.
"

laugh.gif
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2Bdecided
post Apr 1 2009, 15:28
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QUOTE
Differences HEARD that are huge cannot possibly be imaginary and to think that is possible only displays a complete lack of understanding
The placebo effect can genuinely, provably (measurably!) cure people of real illnesses.

How can people be so silly as to dismiss it in their listening?


Brave SiriusB - why waste your time? sad.gif


As I usually say at this point, the really sad thing is how great sound reproduction would be by now if everyone embraced double-blind testing. Use your ears - just don't let them be fooled.

Cheers,
David.
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krabapple
post Apr 1 2009, 15:40
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Apr 1 2009, 10:28) *
QUOTE
Differences HEARD that are huge cannot possibly be imaginary and to think that is possible only displays a complete lack of understanding
The placebo effect can genuinely, provably (measurably!) cure people of real illnesses.



usually only temporarily, if it was a 'real' illness (not psychosomatic)


QUOTE
How can people be so silly as to dismiss it in their listening?



Never understimate the power of denial.
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pdq
post Apr 1 2009, 16:46
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I believe it has been shown, however, that people heal more quickly from a real illness if they are in the right frame of mind.
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