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Wavegain vs. MP3Gain, Why the former might be better...
wdk40
post Aug 13 2005, 19:02
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QUOTE (wdk40 @ Aug 13 2005, 12:59 PM)
QUOTE (Jebus @ Aug 4 2005, 11:26 AM)

The side-effect (benefit) is that you don't really need to run LameGain from EAC at all, but can use it from a command-line. So you could for instance store the cue sheets and FLAC the wav images, then make MP3s automatically out of them later.
*



I tried to run LameGain from the command line but recieved an error when it attempts to parse the wav into separate tracks. The error popup from LameGain says: Error splitting source WAVE into separate tracks.

It works fine from within EAC though ....

any suggestions?
*




oh yeah, from the LameGain output:
E:\Documents and Settings\auser\My Documents\My Music\WAV>C:\WINDOWS\system32\cs
cript.exe "C:\Program Files\LameGain\LameGain.vbs" "E:\Documents and Settings\au
ser\My Documents\My Music\WAV\CDImage.wav"
Microsoft ® Windows Script Host Version 5.6
Copyright © Microsoft Corporation 1996-2001. All rights reserved.

LameGain version 2.0, 24/06/05
Copyright © 2005 - Jeremy Herbison

Reading metadata from CUE sheet... done
Splitting source WAVE file into separate tracks...
E:\Documents and Settings\auser\My Documents\My Music\WAV>
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Jebus
post Aug 13 2005, 20:38
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Is the wav file named CDImage.wav and the cue sheet named CDImage.cue? Cause if their names don't match it won't find the cuesheet.

edit: also upgrade the latest version, fixed a few bugs.

This post has been edited by Jebus: Aug 13 2005, 20:39
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wdk40
post Aug 13 2005, 23:59
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QUOTE (Jebus @ Aug 13 2005, 02:38 PM)
Is the wav file named CDImage.wav and the cue sheet named CDImage.cue? Cause if their names don't match it won't find the cuesheet.

edit: also upgrade the latest version, fixed a few bugs.
*


it seems to find the cuesheet just fine. it just craps out during the track splitting. i can run this from a DOS command window, right?
and where can i find version 2.2? i can only seem to find 2.0 ....
thanks,
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ezra2323
post Aug 15 2005, 17:57
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I finally made it to the end of this 2 year long, very interesting, discussion.

I have a couple more questions.

1) Most of the discussion focus around a LAME solution, and why not, as that is probably by far the most popular encoder used here. But what about other encoders such as iTunes AAC encoder, or the Fraunhofer MP3 encoder (2 that I use as well as LAME). Is there anyway to apply the LAMEgain process to these encoders or is it recomended to 1st apply WAVgain and then compress the WAV when using these encoders?

2) A lot of discussion on the theoretical loss of applying WAVgain to a file and then encoding. Has anyone actually noticed a quality loss of a WAVgained file with their own ears?

3) Assuming one WAVgains their CD collection and then encodes, but also has other compressed files (purchased or downloaded) in their library where there is no access to the original WAV file, is there a way to level the volume between tracks when listening on an iPod? If I recall, Apple's soundcheck in iTunes cannot reconcile the large difference between a WAVgained and compressed file and a non-WAV gained and compressed file. I do not want to turn up the volume to listen to a song I compressed only to have my ears shattered by the following song that did not undergo the same process.
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Jebus
post Aug 15 2005, 18:52
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Main download location is version 2.2. I just checked. Is someone mirroring me?

Yes, from the command-line in the LameGain folder, just type "cscript LameGain.vbs <path_to_wav>"

It probably ISN'T finding the cuesheet. It has to be in the same directory as the wav file and have the same name but with a .cue extension.

This post has been edited by Jebus: Aug 15 2005, 18:53
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Jebus
post Aug 15 2005, 18:56
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QUOTE (ezra2323 @ Aug 15 2005, 08:57 AM)
I finally made it to the end of this 2 year long, very interesting, discussion.

I have a couple more questions.

1) Most of the discussion focus around a LAME solution, and why not, as that is probably by far the most popular encoder used here. But what about other encoders such as iTunes AAC encoder, or the Fraunhofer MP3 encoder (2 that I use as well as LAME). Is there anyway to apply the LAMEgain process to these encoders or is it recomended to 1st apply WAVgain and then compress the WAV when using these encoders?

2) A lot of discussion on the theoretical loss of applying WAVgain to a file and then encoding. Has anyone actually noticed a quality loss of a WAVgained file with their own ears?

3) Assuming one WAVgains their CD collection and then encodes, but also has other compressed files (purchased or downloaded) in their library where there is no access to the original WAV file, is there a way to level the volume between tracks when listening on an iPod? If I recall, Apple's soundcheck in iTunes cannot reconcile the large difference between a WAVgained and compressed file and a non-WAV gained and compressed file. I do not want to turn up the volume to listen to a song I compressed only to have my ears shattered by the following song that did not undergo the same process.
*


1) Other encoders deal with the high-frequency issues better so its not as big a deal, but yeah, if the encoder doesn't support a --scale switch then simply use wavegain (medium noise shaping, no dither) to adjust instead of just an analysis.

2) No one has heard anything that I know of.

3) I'd just run MP3Gain on those other files after the fact to make them match, roughly.
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wdk40
post Aug 16 2005, 03:13
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QUOTE (Jebus @ Aug 15 2005, 12:52 PM)
It probably ISN'T finding the cuesheet. It has to be in the same directory as the wav file and have the same name but with a .cue extension.
*


It finds the cue sheet (if it didn't your code spits out an error msg).

Using EAC, I created a wav image and cue sheet (but didn't execute LameGain). I then attempted to run LameGain from the command line.

I added some print statements to your program and it seems as if the following line is where the error dialog is generated:
CODE
Set wavsplit = shell.Exec("""" & baseDir & "\wavsplit\wavsplit.exe"" --c """ & cuesheet & """ --s """ & source & """ --d """ & tempDir & """")


The error dialog says wavsplit.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience. This is one of those standard dialogs that ask if you want to send an error report to microsoft. Whe I click on 'Don't Send' i then get the LameGain dialog.

I tried to run the wavsplit command from the Windows Command Prompt window and it fails there also. Same dialog box as above (... encountered a problem .. sorry ..).

Very strange. There must be something wrong/different environmentaly.

When I run LameGain directly from EAC (i used the same disk that i previously used in the above test), it works fine!

Any suggestions?

EDIT -
I added a print statement to print out the actual values of the wavsplit command line and ran the process through EAC again. I noticed that the WAV source file is named ...\My Music\WAV\Ctmp7!1!5.wav. While LameGain was running, I checked the above directory and did not see this file, but did see a CDImage.wav (and assoicated cue file). Not sure that means anything ....

This post has been edited by wdk40: Aug 16 2005, 03:41
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Jebus
post Aug 16 2005, 04:37
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I sent you a private message with upload instructions.
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wdk40
post Aug 17 2005, 01:53
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QUOTE (Jebus @ Aug 15 2005, 10:37 PM)
I sent you a private message with upload instructions.
*


i think i figured it out ....

as i mentioned in my post, i noticed that the filename for the wav file was something like Ctmp7!1!5.wav yet i couldn't find that file anywhere. i added some more print statements to your code and it looks like this is what happens ...

i followed your instructions and from EAC i select Action->Copy Image & Create Cue Sheet-> compressed. I accept the default (CDImage.wav) when prompted for a filename. EAC then reads the CD and creates the wav file only the name is a temporary name, something like Ctmp7!1!5.wav. This file appears to be an uncompressed version as it gets pretty big. It is this file that is handed off to LameGain for processing.

When I tried to test LameGain from the command line I created a compressed wav file (Action->Copy Image & Create Cue Sheet-> compressed) and was using that one. It looks like wavsplit didn't like the fact that the file was compressed (or i just don't know how to tell it the file is compressed - i couldn't find any options to do this).

i validated this by pausing your script at the begining, copying the temporary file that eac created and later using this file while running lamegain from the command line. it worked.

my plan for doing all this (maybe i should have stated this in the begining?) is to rip a bunch of cds and then run lamegain from the command line to process them overnight.

thanks for your help ... if you still want the files i can get them to you but you can just as easily test this yourself w/o my files.

again, thanks for your help ......
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Jebus
post Aug 17 2005, 17:08
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Well yeah, LameGain needs to be handed an uncompressed wav image smile.gif I'm not sure what you were handing it.
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dli
post Aug 17 2005, 17:14
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I've seen wavsplit crash when the FILE reference in the cue sheet did not match up with the WAV file name.
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Otto42
post Aug 17 2005, 19:11
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QUOTE (ezra2323 @ Aug 15 2005, 10:57 AM)
2) A lot of discussion on the theoretical loss of applying WAVgain to a file and then encoding. Has anyone actually noticed a quality loss of a WAVgained file with their own ears?

That theoretical loss is well below anything a human being could reasonably hear. The only reason it's really a consideration is:
a) Perfectionism, and
b) Like a lot of losses, it's additive. Repeated use of these sort of processes adds up, and eventually leads to something you can hear. Therefore, it's a good idea to avoid them whenever possible. Audio people frequently call these sort of things "raising the noise floor", which is a pretty good description from one perspective.

QUOTE (ezra2323 @ Aug 15 2005, 10:57 AM)
3) Assuming one WAVgains their CD collection and then encodes, but also has other compressed files (purchased or downloaded) in their library where there is no access to the original WAV file, is there a way to level the volume between tracks when listening on an iPod? If I recall, Apple's soundcheck in iTunes cannot reconcile the large difference between a WAVgained and compressed file and a non-WAV gained and compressed file. I do not want to turn up the volume to listen to a song I compressed only to have my ears shattered by the following song that did not undergo the same process.
*

I don't know why this would be an issue. iTunes SoundCheck does indeed work for this sort of thing. It actually is the same basic process as ReplayGain, except that iTunes' method of determining the volume level of the track is not as robust as ReplayGain's method. But it can make quite large changes to volume levels, if necessary.

This post has been edited by Otto42: Aug 17 2005, 19:13


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psycho
post Oct 14 2005, 13:16
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Hiya ppl!

I'm new to this forum. I like the stuff you discuss here very much! biggrin.gif
I have read through the most of this thread and I have a question.
It's not about ReplayGaining before encodin, it's about ReplayGaining when I want to make audio CD from my mp3s.
I can't come to the conclusion myself... Is it better to do a MP3Gain before decoding to wav and burning audio CD or is it better to decode mp3 to wav and then do wavgain and burn audio CD?

I'm looking forward to the debate this question will hopefully lead to. wink.gif

Goran.


--------------------
lame -V 0
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john33
post Oct 14 2005, 15:20
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QUOTE (psycho @ Oct 14 2005, 12:16 PM)
Hiya ppl!

I'm new to this forum. I like the stuff you discuss here very much! biggrin.gif
I have read through the most of this thread and I have a question.
It's not about ReplayGaining before encodin, it's about ReplayGaining when I want to make audio CD from my mp3s.
I can't come to the conclusion myself... Is it better to do a MP3Gain before decoding to wav and burning audio CD or is it better to decode mp3 to wav and then do wavgain and burn audio CD?

I'm looking forward to the debate this question will hopefully lead to. wink.gif

Goran.
*

If the mp3 files have not been replay/mp3gained, then I would mp3 gain before decoding to avoid clipped samples on decode.


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psycho
post Oct 14 2005, 16:57
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QUOTE (john33 @ Oct 14 2005, 04:20 PM)
If the mp3 files have not been replay/mp3gained, then I would mp3 gain before decoding to avoid clipped samples on decode.
*


Thank you for the answer. It makes sense... biggrin.gif
And I usually do audio CD from mp3s *only* when I don't have the original or a losslessly encoded source, as is the case, when I download something. And those mp3s aren't in any way replay/mp3gained before, IMO. So, thanks again!

Goran.


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lame -V 0
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Spam Fodder
post Dec 7 2005, 00:06
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OK, so i tried this going EAC>WaveGain>128 AAC & got no change in file size, maybe even a little _larger_ file.
i did the same files to APS MP3 & saw the smaller files.

File, dB, APS LAME, WaveGain, 128 AAC, WaveGain
1, -8.2, 5.6-MB, 5.4-MB, 4.2-MB, 4.2-MB
2, -7.8, 5.9-MB, 5.8-MB, 4.0-MB, 4.0-MB
3, -8.0, 9.3-MB, 8.9-MB, 6.2-MB, 6.3-MB

insights anyone?
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Spam Fodder
post Dec 8 2005, 16:33
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last night i ripped 'Tyrannosaurus Hives', -10.9-dB, 12 tracks, in both 128 & 192 AAC, both w/ & w/o the Wave Gain adjustment, Apple AAC.
192 w/o, 41.2-MB total
192 w/ , 41.9-MB
128 w/o, 27.7-MB
128 w/, 28.1-MB

i also used LAME 3.98 APS to verify my two '.wav' directories were OK and saw the ~10% difference in file sizes.
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Shade[ST]
post Dec 8 2005, 16:50
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QUOTE (psycho @ Oct 14 2005, 09:57 AM)
Thank you for the answer. It makes sense... biggrin.gif
And I usually do audio CD from mp3s *only* when I don't have the original or a losslessly encoded source, as is the case, when I download something. And those mp3s aren't in any way replay/mp3gained before, IMO. So, thanks again!

Goran.
*

A bit late, but an even better alternative would be to convert to wav (or burn) with foobar, and replaygain enabled, giving you even more precise volume.
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clintb
post Dec 9 2005, 05:05
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QUOTE (Spam Fodder @ Dec 6 2005, 05:06 PM)
OK, so i tried this going EAC>WaveGain>128 AAC & got no change in file size, maybe even a little _larger_ file.
i did the same files to APS MP3 & saw the smaller files.

File,  dB,    APS LAME,    WaveGain,    128 AAC,    WaveGain
1,  -8.2,  5.6-MB,  5.4-MB,  4.2-MB,  4.2-MB
2,  -7.8,  5.9-MB,  5.8-MB,  4.0-MB,  4.0-MB
3,  -8.0,  9.3-MB,  8.9-MB,  6.2-MB,  6.3-MB

insights anyone?
*

I'm assuming you haven't read through the whole thread? It was discussed earlier, that other formats/codecs don't suffer from this problem like mp3 does.

Solution for after-the-fact encodes.
1. Load in Foobar
2. Select all
3. Replaygain> Scan selection as multiple albums (if you've selected multiple, distinctly different albums)
4. Enable Replaygain in the Diskwriter component and convert away to whatever format your heart desires.

BTW, I'm referring to a lossless>lossy conversion.

This post has been edited by clintb: Dec 9 2005, 05:06
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2Bdecided
post Feb 14 2007, 14:32
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Is there a collection which includes (or allows you to put together) the latest lame version, the wavegain version with -fast option enabled, and which works from within EAC?

I've tried Wack, but it's crashing for me. If I can solve the crashing, can I get it to run wavegain in -fast mode?

(I know I should know this, and probably made it all run properly on a PC ~two years ago, but now...!)

Cheers,
David.
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john33
post Feb 14 2007, 16:22
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 14 2007, 13:32) *
Is there a collection which includes (or allows you to put together) the latest lame version, the wavegain version with -fast option enabled, and which works from within EAC?

I've tried Wack, but it's crashing for me. If I can solve the crashing, can I get it to run wavegain in -fast mode?

(I know I should know this, and probably made it all run properly on a PC ~two years ago, but now...!)

Cheers,
David.

So far as Wavegain is concerned, running in fast, or standard, mode should make no difference to anything else. The only difference is that it analyses a subset of the wave samples rather than the whole file. -s, or --fast work fine here. I've never used Wack so I can't comment specifically, but I can't see why it should make any difference.


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