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Closed Back Headphones like Senn HD600
Hifisound
post Jul 25 2013, 18:36
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If were to compare HD600, AKG550, DT770, ATH-M50

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.p...e=0&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=3571&graphID[]=713&graphID[]=2941&scale=30

I see that all 3 closed ones have higher bass response and they all dip faster after 2K only to rise much higher at 8-9K.
And HD600 is known to be a very neutral headphone so does it mean other 3 are bassy, sparkly treble , etc ?

Or are the graphs ok for the latter 3 considering they are closed phones ? And the differences really minor ?
Is 50db range a better scale to use ?

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Rollin
post Jul 25 2013, 20:18
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I have ATH-M50, and it really has sparkly treble and also emphasis on upper bass.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 26 2013, 09:38
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 25 2013, 13:36) *
If were to compare HD600, AKG550, DT770, ATH-M50

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.p...e=0&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=3571&graphID[]=713&graphID[]=2941&scale=30


The link doesn't work for me.
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skamp
post Jul 26 2013, 10:12
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 26 2013, 10:38) *
The link doesn't work for me.


Fixed link


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Hifisound
post Jul 26 2013, 11:00
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QUOTE (skamp @ Jul 26 2013, 14:42) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 26 2013, 10:38) *
The link doesn't work for me.


Fixed link


Thanks Skamp
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 26 2013, 13:29
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 25 2013, 13:36) *
If were to compare HD600, AKG550, DT770, ATH-M50

http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.p...e=0&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=3571&graphID[]=713&graphID[]=2941&scale=30

I see that all 3 closed ones have higher bass response and they all dip faster after 2K only to rise much higher at 8-9K.
And HD600 is known to be a very neutral headphone so does it mean other 3 are bassy, sparkly treble , etc ?

Or are the graphs ok for the latter 3 considering they are closed phones ? And the differences really minor ?
Is 50db range a better scale to use ?


I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

In my book the HD 600 is an open back phone no matter what the thread title may or may not be implying. It's tougher to build an open back headphone with accurate bass simply because the open back lets the back wave escape.

I suspect that the HD 600 is prized because of the smoother high end and perhaps in spite of the unimpressive bottom end. I apply electronic equalization to the bottom end of my open back Sennheisers because based on A/Bing of microphone feeds at live performances that I'm recording with excellent and flat microphones, that's what it takes for natural sound.

There are a lot of non-intuitive things about human perception of smoothness and balance. One is that improvements at one end of the audible spectrum can make the other end of the spectrum sound better. One common example of this is that providing smooth extended bass often makes the treble sound smoother and less harsh.

Also some reviewers are well known to become biased by big price tags and favorable reviews by others. These are all AFAIK sighted evaluations, so who knows everything that influences them?

Good DBTs of headphones would be tough because they include tactile influences that would be hard to hold constant without actually changing the UUTs.
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Hifisound
post Jul 26 2013, 13:59
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What I meant to say by this title is "searching for closed back headphones which sound like HD600" (which I currently have and like)
But what you are saying is some closed back headphones maybe infact more accurate than HD600.
So I can expect a more neutral/natural sounding headphone in a good closed back

This post has been edited by db1989: Jul 26 2013, 16:18
Reason for edit: deleting pointless full quote of above post
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 26 2013, 14:59
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 26 2013, 08:59) *
What I meant to say by this title is "searching for closed back headphones which sound like HD600" (which I currently have and like)


Which I was trying to answer but leave the door open for that meaning.

QUOTE
But what you are saying is some closed back headphones maybe infact more accurate than HD600.


That is possible, and it is more possible that some closed back headphones are in fact more accurate at just the bass end.

The HD600 may be among the best for high frequencies, but my experience and the data that has been referenced asks some tough questions about their bass.

IME many people are more accepting of what turns out to be somewhat attenuated bass than rough treble. Besides the HD 600 measure flat down to 40 Hz, and only a few dB down at 30 Hz and in the cosmic scheme of things, that's really very good.


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Hifisound
post Jul 26 2013, 15:53
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So based on graph, will it be correct to say the other 3 have more but uneven treble and hence inaccurate treble ?
The bass output is surely more for the other 3 but can one conclude from graph that its accurate ?

This post has been edited by db1989: Jul 26 2013, 16:18
Reason for edit: deleting pointless full quote of above post
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 26 2013, 18:09
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 26 2013, 10:53) *
So based on graph, will it be correct to say the other 3 have more but uneven treble and hence inaccurate treble ?



Yes. The HD600 seems to have the most accurate treble response. It's smoother and has less of a dip in the midrange than the rest.

It does have less bass response but if I weigh that by the decreasing sensitivity of the ear to variations at lower frequencies, that should not be a big issue.

QUOTE
The bass output is surely more for the other 3 but can one conclude from graph that its accurate ?


I wouldn't call any of these accurate, but the HD 600 is probably the best sounding and most accurate of the bunch based simply on the measurements.

I own and routinely use a pair of ATH-M50s, and owned and very happily used HD 580s for years before they got stolen.
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Hifisound
post Jul 27 2013, 01:25
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Any other closed headphone which you can recommend which is more accurate than these 3 or known to be most accurate in closed category (max $300)

This post has been edited by db1989: Jul 27 2013, 01:42
Reason for edit: same as on your last two posts. Please stop that.
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Hifisound
post Jul 27 2013, 09:21
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The MDR-7506 does not drop above 2K like DT770/AKG K550 but it rolls off much faster after 10K. Look interesting at just $77
Sadly there is no HD380pro freq graph on headphone.com for comparison with 7506,DT770 and K550
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Hifisound
post Jul 27 2013, 11:44
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Looks like Shure SRH940 could be the closest to HD600

HD600 vs SRH940 vs MDR-7506
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 27 2013, 14:36
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 27 2013, 06:44) *
Looks like Shure SRH940 could be the closest to HD600

HD600 vs SRH940 vs MDR-7506


I see an approx 7 dB difference around 8 KHz which should be pretty darn audible and potentially irritating.

Piece of mastering lore - peaks in the 8-9 KHz range are extra irritating to most people, and putting a strategic dip there can make a system or a recording more euphonic.
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Hifisound
post Jul 27 2013, 17:07
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Well, it looked closest as compared to other many closed headphone graphs smile.gif

Btw, how good are the Sony MDR-7510, MDR-7520 ?
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Hifisound
post Jul 27 2013, 19:52
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Just realized that Martel had suggested the similar for MDR-V6 (almost same as MDR-7506)

2 questions about V6/7506

1) Are they dark sounding due to roll off after 10K ?
2) How are they comfortwise (say in comparison to DT770) ?

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pisymbol
post Jul 28 2013, 02:38
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 26 2013, 20:25) *
Any other closed headphone which you can recommend which is more accurate than these 3 or known to be most accurate in closed category (max $300)


If you are willing to spend a little extra, LFF's T50p modded Paradox are known for having a fairly neutral FR curve.

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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 28 2013, 15:43
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 27 2013, 14:52) *
Just realized that Martel had suggested the similar for MDR-V6 (almost same as MDR-7506)

2 questions about V6/7506

1) Are they dark sounding due to roll off after 10K ?
2) How are they comfortwise (say in comparison to DT770) ?


Usually people complain about thin low bass, boomy upper bass, and slightly tizzy high end.
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mzil
post Jul 28 2013, 17:13
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^What "people"? Headphone forum members? Advertisement funded, "High-end" magazine reviewers? Might such people suffer from expectation bias and "group think" in regards to their sighted evaluations of what they undoubtedly might dismiss as being "cheap headphones" by their standards?

Sighted reviews are just as scientifically worthless with headphones as they are with anything else in audio. It's no different. The argument, "But it is nearly impossible to conduct a truly double blind test of headphones, as one might do, say with amplifiers!" doesn't suddenly mean sighted evaluations somehow miraculously become scientifically valid and are "exempt" from the exact same problems we carefully protect against, say in a good (scientifically controlled) amplifier comparison test. Namely, they are dubious for the same following reasons they are for typical (uncontrolled) amplifier comparisons:

- no level matching using instrumentation
- no way to preclude expectation bias due to both sight [and in the case of headphones, also "feel", against one's head/ears]

This is an inconvenient truth, for sure, but it is still the truth.

This post has been edited by mzil: Jul 28 2013, 18:12
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Martel
post Jul 28 2013, 18:29
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 26 2013, 14:29) *
I suspect that the HD 600 is prized because of the smoother high end and perhaps in spite of the unimpressive bottom end. I apply electronic equalization to the bottom end of my open back Sennheisers because based on A/Bing of microphone feeds at live performances that I'm recording with excellent and flat microphones, that's what it takes for natural sound.
Your microphones go down to 20 Hz within, say, -1dB?


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copperblue
post Jul 28 2013, 21:22
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QUOTE (mzil @ Jul 28 2013, 17:13) *
^What "people"? Headphone forum members? Advertisement funded, "High-end" magazine reviewers? Might such people suffer from expectation bias and "group think" in regards to their sighted evaluations of what they undoubtedly might dismiss as being "cheap headphones" by their standards?

Sighted reviews are just as scientifically worthless with headphones as they are with anything else in audio. It's no different. The argument, "But it is nearly impossible to conduct a truly double blind test of headphones, as one might do, say with amplifiers!" doesn't suddenly mean sighted evaluations somehow miraculously become scientifically valid and are "exempt" from the exact same problems we carefully protect against, say in a good (scientifically controlled) amplifier comparison test. Namely, they are dubious for the same following reasons they are for typical (uncontrolled) amplifier comparisons:

- no level matching using instrumentation
- no way to preclude expectation bias due to both sight [and in the case of headphones, also "feel", against one's head/ears]

This is an inconvenient truth, for sure, but it is still the truth.

Bias is bias, but - for what it's worth - the poster you are replying to "invented" Double Blind Testing. Appeal to Authority noted... tongue.gif
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db1989
post Jul 28 2013, 21:27
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ABX, not double-blind testing. The former is just one subset of the latter, which has been a concept for much longer.
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mzil
post Jul 28 2013, 22:08
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QUOTE (copperblue @ Jul 28 2013, 16:22) *
Bias is bias, but - for what it's worth - the poster you are replying to "invented" Double Blind Testing. Appeal to Authority noted... tongue.gif


Yes indeed, I am well aware of that [well, ABX that is, not "double-blind"], in fact I thanked him for it in an unrelated thread:

QUOTE (mzil @ Oct 18 2012, 14:16) *
P.S.

[Arny] ... And just to set the record straight, I'm not attempting to help anyone's "cause" except for science. [And thanks for inventing ABX, by the way. That was a huge contribution, unlike this relatively trivial matter!]


This post has been edited by mzil: Jul 28 2013, 22:36
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Hifisound
post Jul 29 2013, 01:46
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 28 2013, 20:13) *
Usually people complain about thin low bass, boomy upper bass, and slightly tizzy high end.


All the other known and respected headphones (DT770, HD280, ATH-M50 etc ) should exhibit more of this (esp boomy bass) and similar treble issues as MDR-7506/V6 based on the FR, shouldn't it ?

ATH-M50 vs DT770 vs HD280pro vs MDR-7506

On a general note : The more I look at lot of FR graphs of different headphones the more I think that none of the manufacturers are really attempting a "neutral" or natural sound but their own version of EQed or "signature" sound based on the target price range of the product.
But I still wonder why the FR graphs are not as flat as possible for the above 3 headphones known to be used for applications requiring accuracy, and leave the EQing to users if required.
(unless I am missing something basic here, kindly correct me if so )
Strangely, even the Sony MDR-Z1000, MDR-ZX700 (which seem to be same as 7520 and 7510) have deviated from flatter response of 7506...

Like the headphone.com, goldenears or innerfidelity I wish there was similar repository (of measurements) for speakers , atleast from the big manufacturers....
(I guess current way is to go through various reviews at stereophile etc)

At the end of it I am as confused as I was in the first post smile.gifsmile.gif
Though one thing I did realize is that I will not attempt to replace my HD600s with a closed one, but just buy one more to be used when and wherever required smile.gif

This post has been edited by Hifisound: Jul 29 2013, 02:28
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Martel
post Jul 29 2013, 07:31
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They have monitor loudspeakers in recording studios for a reason.

Apart from that, flat ("boring") sound would not sell many units to non-professionals, meaning less profit for the company.

This post has been edited by Martel: Jul 29 2013, 07:31


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