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Closed Back Headphones like Senn HD600
Hifisound
post Jul 8 2013, 08:35
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Hi,

I currently have Senn HD600 which I like it a lot.
But I am unable to use them many a times (office , baby sleeping etc) since they are open back and leak sound.

I am keen to know which closed back headphone will be similar in sound to HD600 or even AKG 702 (found it a bit more neutral than HD600) and yet be comfortable as well as portable ?

Would like your suggestions here.
I see one good option which is Senn HD380 pro which is portable as well.
( recommended in some older posts here )
Planning to buy Fiio E07K USB DAC+Amp as well.

Thanks in advance,
Hifisound

This post has been edited by Hifisound: Jul 8 2013, 08:38
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LithosZA
post Jul 8 2013, 15:41
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I don't have much experience with too many closed models.
I have a Sennheiser HD-280 PRO, Ultrasone HFI-680 and an open Sennheiser HD-650. If you like the sound of the Sennheiser HD-650 then I would go with the Ultrasone HFI-680. My favorite is the Sennheiser HD-280.
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mzil
post Jul 8 2013, 16:12
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Sony MDR-7506 (/MDR-V6). I actually prefer them to the HD600 and conveniently they are a fraction of the price, especially when on sale.
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RonaldDumsfeld
post Jul 8 2013, 17:00
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Don't have much experience with open backed headphones. Prefer to listen on speakers whenever possible.
Anyhow it's possible no closed backs sound identical to any open backs - else why bother?

However if you like the Sennheiser brand I can recommend the closed back HD25-1 II (75 Ohms). These are classic studio tracking, outside broadcast and DJ tools. Sturdy, easy to drive, comfortable over long periods and providing excellent isolation. If they are good enough for pro use they are good enough for me.

I use them on the train all the time and have never noticed any sour looks from nearby passengers. Not considered a headphone attenuator/amplifier as they are dangerously loud on 30% max via a line level output.

HD25-1 II
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lunkhead
post Jul 8 2013, 21:03
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I have read that the Beyerdynamic DT250 (250 ohms version) sounds similar to the Sennheiser HD 600.
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Hifisound
post Jul 9 2013, 06:57
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Thanks for replies upto now.

Anybody had a a chance to compare HD380pro with HD600 ?
Or any feedback on AKG K550 ?

(I will be purchasing from Amazon US and I am from India, so will not get a chance to compare myself before buying)
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mzil
post Jul 9 2013, 15:37
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I personally find the verbal comparisons at the main headphone review sites to be filled with audio woo, mythology, and heavily influenced by expectation bias based on things like price and brand reputation, however I do like to use the raw data generated by their headphone couplers and dummy heads, to compare frequency response curves myself. Here's an example:
HD600 vs MDR7506 vs K550

Several sites publish such curves, but I don't recommend comparing them across different sites because differences in their methodologies, dummy heads, microphones, and correction curves may make such comparisons unreliable.

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saratoga
post Jul 9 2013, 17:07
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One should be careful with those frequency response plots however. I suspect that they're relatively accurate, so that you can compare to headphones on the same test and see how flat they are compared to one another. I doubt they're absolutely accurate though. My experience EQing some of the headphones I've bought from headphone.com often gives me very different "neutral" curves for my head then those tests suggest.
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Hifisound
post Jul 10 2013, 14:42
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Jul 9 2013, 21:37) *
One should be careful with those frequency response plots however. I suspect that they're relatively accurate, so that you can compare to headphones on the same test and see how flat they are compared to one another. I doubt they're absolutely accurate though. My experience EQing some of the headphones I've bought from headphone.com often gives me very different "neutral" curves for my head then those tests suggest.


Btw, is it how "pro" folks use headphones for critical listening usually ? i.e something like MDR7506 or hd280pro with appropriate EQing rather than hunting for inherently more accurate headphone ?

Just curious.....

This post has been edited by Hifisound: Jul 10 2013, 14:43
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 10 2013, 15:01
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 10 2013, 09:42) *
QUOTE (saratoga @ Jul 9 2013, 21:37) *
One should be careful with those frequency response plots however. I suspect that they're relatively accurate, so that you can compare to headphones on the same test and see how flat they are compared to one another. I doubt they're absolutely accurate though. My experience EQing some of the headphones I've bought from headphone.com often gives me very different "neutral" curves for my head then those tests suggest.


Btw, is it how "pro" folks use headphones for critical listening usually ? i.e something like MDR7506 or hd280pro with appropriate EQing rather than hunting for inherently more accurate headphone ?

Just curious.....


IME Working pros learn how to translate results from what they have at hand to some kind of conceptual ideal. If they can use the headphones they are most familiar with, then that gives the best results, but if they have a range of known alternatives at hand, then they can get the job done.

On a given day I wander around between ATH M50s, HD 280s, HD 380s, Superlux 688Bs, and a heavily-equalized pair of RS-170s. In the field I mostly find HD 280s mainly because I induced the relevant parties to use them. MDR 7506 remain the most commonly used in professional contexts and I have a pair of them as well.
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Hifisound
post Jul 10 2013, 15:53
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QUOTE
IME Working pros learn how to translate results from what they have at hand to some kind of conceptual ideal. If they can use the headphones they are most familiar with, then that gives the best results, but if they have a range of known alternatives at hand, then they can get the job done.

On a given day I wander around between ATH M50s, HD 280s, HD 380s, Superlux 688Bs, and a heavily-equalized pair of RS-170s. In the field I mostly find HD 280s mainly because I induced the relevant parties to use them. MDR 7506 remain the most commonly used in professional contexts and I have a pair of them as well.


Hmm, I guess then working on music needn't have the same requirements as enjoying it smile.gif, unless its all snake oil above some of the models you mentioned.

Btw you mentioned HD380s. Did you have a chance to compare then with HD600 ? Are they similar in sound ?
HD600, due to open design, will be comfortable for sure but have usage restrictions like I mentioned in the first post.

This post has been edited by Hifisound: Jul 10 2013, 15:54
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jul 10 2013, 17:48
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 10 2013, 10:53) *
QUOTE
IME Working pros learn how to translate results from what they have at hand to some kind of conceptual ideal. If they can use the headphones they are most familiar with, then that gives the best results, but if they have a range of known alternatives at hand, then they can get the job done.

On a given day I wander around between ATH M50s, HD 280s, HD 380s, Superlux 688Bs, and a heavily-equalized pair of RS-170s. In the field I mostly find HD 280s mainly because I induced the relevant parties to use them. MDR 7506 remain the most commonly used in professional contexts and I have a pair of them as well.


Hmm, I guess then working on music needn't have the same requirements as enjoying it smile.gif,


True, no joke.

QUOTE
Btw you mentioned HD380s. Did you have a chance to compare then with HD600 ? Are they similar in sound ?


No. My methodology for auditioning headphones is typically to own them. HD 680s are a little salty for me. I owned 580s for many years.

QUOTE
HD600, due to open design, will be comfortable for sure but have usage restrictions like I mentioned in the first post.


Open back can't be very effective for monitoring live recording, but closed back headphones such as the HD 280s and even IEMs IME don't have enough isolation.

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DVDdoug
post Jul 10 2013, 18:24
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QUOTE
Btw, is it how "pro" folks use headphones for critical listening usually ? i.e something like MDR7506 or hd280pro with appropriate EQing rather than hunting for inherently more accurate headphone ?
In general, pros don't use headphones for mixing or otherwise processing/adjusting sound... Sound quality & accuracy are important, but not necessarily the most important thing..

From Recording Magazine:
QUOTE
As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts. In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story. Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.


I'd say most pros consider:
- Reliability & ruggedness
- Comfort
- Sound Quality
- Isolation (where appropriate)
- Tradition/standardization (What we usually buy, or what most others in our industry use)
- Cost

A recording/mixing/mastering engineer buying personal-use headphones might not be too concerned with cost, but for a manager buying headphones for "the studio", or for a radio/TV station, etc., cost is going to be a big consideration. So, you are not going to find too many super-expensive "audiophile" headphones in "pro use".

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LithosZA
post Jul 10 2013, 18:31
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QUOTE
In general, pros don't use headphones for mixing or otherwise processing/adjusting sound... Sound quality & accuracy are important, but not necessarily the most important thing..

Maybe if they also start using headphones for mixing it might end the loudness war... smile.gif
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Hifisound
post Jul 10 2013, 18:48
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Jul 10 2013, 22:18) *
QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 10 2013, 10:53) *
QUOTE
IME Working pros learn how to translate results from what they have at hand to some kind of conceptual ideal. If they can use the headphones they are most familiar with, then that gives the best results, but if they have a range of known alternatives at hand, then they can get the job done.

On a given day I wander around between ATH M50s, HD 280s, HD 380s, Superlux 688Bs, and a heavily-equalized pair of RS-170s. In the field I mostly find HD 280s mainly because I induced the relevant parties to use them. MDR 7506 remain the most commonly used in professional contexts and I have a pair of them as well.


Hmm, I guess then working on music needn't have the same requirements as enjoying it smile.gif,


True, no joke.

QUOTE
Btw you mentioned HD380s. Did you have a chance to compare then with HD600 ? Are they similar in sound ?


No. My methodology for auditioning headphones is typically to own them. HD 680s are a little salty for me. I owned 580s for many years.

QUOTE
HD600, due to open design, will be comfortable for sure but have usage restrictions like I mentioned in the first post.


Open back can't be very effective for monitoring live recording, but closed back headphones such as the HD 280s and even IEMs IME don't have enough isolation.


Looks like I will just go for Senn HD380pro / AKG K551 once the price is good.... and see how it goes

Thanks everybody for inputs.
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Martel
post Jul 11 2013, 10:07
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I have (had) 380s and they are very heavy on the lowest base (especially with equipment able to properly drive the base). It's impressive and enjoyable... for a while, then it gets tiresome (further "augmented" by their clamp force). I couldn't use them for more than an hour so I gave them to my father.

You should definitely try them before buying.


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mzil
post Jul 11 2013, 17:43
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^An emphasized bass is very common in many headphones, if not the norm, but it makes no sense to me from the perspective of wanting to hear a faithful, accurate, high fidelity rendition of the recording. Some (not all) of the headphone review sites even specifically state that an elevated bass is the standard, target curve which all should strive for. I think that's baloney.

Sure, one could concoct some bogus explanation like "Modern day recordings are intentionally made too bright, to compensate for the greater loss in the highs, which occurs from listening to speakers at a distance, but doesn't occur with headphones (or with near field monitors)", or some similar contrivance, but in the end I think the real reason so many headphones are made this way is quite simple: market taste for elevated bass.

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Hifisound
post Jul 11 2013, 17:52
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Anybody listened to AKG K551 ?
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mzil
post Jul 11 2013, 18:49
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My understanding is the K551 is exactly the same, sonically, as the K550, so reviews and graphs [such as the one I posted earlier] should be nearly identical. The difference is the added price of the K551 gets you an inline iOS device remote control with built-in mic (for phone calls). The cord is shorter (1.1m vs. 3m), thinner gauge, non-detachable, may come in different colors, and does not come with a 1/4 inch adaptor for full-size stereos, screw on or otherwise.

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Hifisound
post Jul 19 2013, 17:28
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Another model which looks interesting is Beyer DT770 pro
The 250 ohm is cheapest (compared to other impedances) and I guess it will work just fine with Fiio E07K

One basic question I get here though, is why are not source components always designed to one standard output impedance so that the headphones also can be one standard impedance ?

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saratoga
post Jul 19 2013, 19:49
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 19 2013, 12:28) *
One basic question I get here though, is why are not source components always designed to one standard output impedance so that the headphones also can be one standard impedance ?


Because the people selling this stuff have no incentive to do so.
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Canar
post Jul 20 2013, 00:15
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QUOTE (Hifisound @ Jul 19 2013, 09:28) *
One basic question I get here though, is why are not source components always designed to one standard output impedance so that the headphones also can be one standard impedance ?

QUOTE (Andrew S. Tanenbaum)
The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from.



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skamp
post Jul 20 2013, 06:46
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QUOTE
IS THERE A STANDARD FOR OUTPUT IMPEDANCE? The only standard I’m aware of is IEC 61938 from 1996. It specifies an output impedance of 120 ohms. There are numerous reasons why this is standard is way out of data and a really bad idea. In a Stereophile article about headphones, they said of the 120 ohm standard:

“Whoever wrote that must live in a fantasy world.”

I have to agree with Stereophile. The 120 ohm standard might have been (barely!) tolerable before the iPod and other portable music sources became immensely popular, but it’s not any more. Most headphones are designed very differently today.


http://nwavguy.blogspot.fr/2011/02/headpho...-impedance.html


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Hifisound
post Jul 25 2013, 03:15
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One general complaint I read about closed headphones (including dt770) is the recessed mids.
Is it so ? As that would be pretty big difference wrt HD600 and a real concern...
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Martel
post Jul 25 2013, 07:21
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Sony MDR-V6 (a closed headphone) seems to have bass-mid balance similar to HD 600. My HD 215 does not have recessed mids either. I don't think that closed headphones implicitly need to have a V-shaped FR curve.

comparison

This post has been edited by Martel: Jul 25 2013, 07:22


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