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Scale the Summit's "Master" Fail, Ths is what we can expect now, I guess.
greynol
post Feb 27 2013, 08:08
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Reading comprehension escapes you.


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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 08:14
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QUOTE (LithosZA @ Feb 26 2013, 23:18) *
Personally I don't care if anything was sourced from 16bit/44.1Khz. It doesn't make any difference in audible sound quality so why worry?
What I DO care about is the DRC. If the music is mastered at high dynamic range compression then...that is unprofessional which means I think most music today is done unprofesionally biggrin.gif
Even 24bit/96Khz won't help that. Sadly some people think 24bit/96Khz is better, but it will sound just as sh**.


I agree. DRC is a far bigger deal to me than this topic as well.

Are you talking about vinyl, though? I'm just wondering how much vinyl is pressed using a CD-R when the music was recorded and edited at a higher sampling rate and bit depth.

I find it "odd" to do so. The only record company I've thus far got a response from says they think so as well. They stated that they'd never do it. I wasn't asking for an argument about CD vs. vinyl or if I can hear frequencies beyond Nyquist or how well they're reproduced on vinyl.

Think of it this way: I invest a considerable amount of my time cleaning up needledrops of material that I feel was overly-compressed for the CD-version. It's important to me in an academic sense. (On a similar note: some vinyl IME is still overly-compressed or uses the same "master." And by "master" I don't mean a completely different master necessarily; I rather mean the same master, with an RIAA curve, that wasn't normalized to 0 dB for the CD. It doesn't cost anyone a thing or require a different "master" to screw up a CD like almost every one is now.)

I just want to know. Whether it "matters" or not. It matters (maybe for less of a good reason than I imagine) to the label I asked and it matters to me. That's all.


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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 08:16
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 27 2013, 01:08) *
Reading comprehension escapes you.


As the role of moderator and definition of moderation does you.

This post has been edited by Engelsstaub: Feb 27 2013, 08:17


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greynol
post Feb 27 2013, 08:46
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Somehow as a moderator I'm not allowed to challenge baseless and silly notions about what constitutes professiomalism in the record industry or how vinyl should be mastered? I don't get to be a regular Joe, ever?

I could just as easily let others make the case I made and then shut the thread down because of the growing lack of civility that began once people didn't agree with you. These are people who posess a great deal of knowledge and insight about a topic in which you appear to have great interest.


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greynol
post Feb 27 2013, 09:05
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 22 2013, 14:26) *
what's on the disc can hardly be more than Redbook. That's the issue.

If you can't tell the difference (and you've already admitted as much), why do you care?


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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 09:46
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 27 2013, 01:46) *
Somehow as a moderator I'm not allowed to challenge baseless and silly notions about what constitutes professiomalism in the record industry or how vinyl should be mastered? I don't get to be a regular Joe, ever?

I could just as easily let others make the case I made and then shut the thread down because of the growing lack of civility that began once people didn't agree with you. These are people who posess a great deal of knowledge and insight about a topic in which you appear to have great interest.


Shut it down then. Once again: I got nothing but snark from any of these people who you say possess a great deal of knowledge about this topic. In fact, they contributed nothing to demonstrate that pressing vinyl from CD-R is a standard practice in the industry...which is fine. A few were just antagonistic and made far stupider statements than you think I did. And it was all goaded on by you. That's how you moderate...by leading a lynch mob. It's easy to espouse popular opinions, isn't it? Don't bother trying to sit in the middle where you belong and shoot down some obvious BS from the mob too. Especially if it's anti-vinyl...people can say anything no matter how unfounded or ludicrous.

No matter how hard I try to play ball according to your rules you still cheat. This is an ongoing thing between you and I. The last time I had to talk to the Ump (you) it was because some dick was cross-thread harassing me over nearly the same thing. Another poster made some stupid claim about how he never heard a vinyl master that sounded different from the CD. I politely asked him to tell me what vinyl he was listening to and that that was far from my experience. (Predictably no reply because the poster was full of it.) I even started a thread attempting to give examples of all the vinyl I had recorded to attempt to draw some sort of conclusions. Same poster followed me thread-to-thread harassing me with more baseless crap. Harassed me about the price of a record brush I linked to...you happily jumped on top of that too. The price of a brush FFS. I apologized for nothing to play nice but it never ends. My efforts are in earnest even if I'm just stupid like you'd have me to believe through your condescending "moderation." You just have this raging hard-on for certain posters where we must toe some poorly-defined line while others can say ridiculous crap and contribute nothing on topic.

You're the mod here. You're staff but you're not interested in helping...just leading a bunch of people with pitchforks and torches. You don't have to like that I care about the bit/sample used to press vinyl. My only question is about the norm...not whether I'm stupid for caring. Now if you and your experts (Arny and GeSomeone, I'm guessing) can go ahead and convince me what that norm is I'm all ears. Statements like "this happens all the time" are demonstrably at odds with the only expert statement presented thus far in this entire thread. I'll bet you'd rather my ilk just f___ off over to Hoffman's forum, but here I am trying my ass off to have some meaningful discussion in a forum ruled by those unfriendly to anyone who likes vinyl.

So...if we're going back to the beginning I'd just love to hear from anyone who can say with some authority that they've seen vinyl pressed from Redbook or what the specifics are. I would love for somebody above you to read all of this and see what they think. Otherwise just shut it down if you're afraid or need to be that guy. Save me from wasting anymore of my time.


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greynol
post Feb 27 2013, 10:42
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You're sure pinning a lot on a sample of only one, and while it probably doesn't mean much, I've never even heard of that label. Still, I never dismissed the comment, nor did anyone else AFAICT.

I did dismiss your idea of professionalism since it is clear you've never participated in the process. You're entitled to your opinion, but when you throw it out there, don't expect everyone will cow to you and "STFU" if they don't agree. Perhaps I'm simply wrong in believing that professionalism in how business is conducted is defined by the professionals.

Those are two separate issues. Slamming them together as you did was disingenuous.

That I felt the need to defend our community against your disrespectful insults was yet another issue. When I suggested that our community knew more about the technical aspects than many in the record industry, I made sure to point out that I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, meaning those involved in the discussion (the record company or the new poster who is affiliated with an indie label). While I don't believe the people at the record company you attacked (and now herald as your example of how business is done and should be done in the industry) will be able to justify their comforting assurances on technical grounds, I certainly don't doubt that they might have such a policy. Again, I have never claimed otherwise.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 27 2013, 10:49


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2Bdecided
post Feb 27 2013, 11:15
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 26 2013, 03:21) *
I don't really read the Hoffman forums unless a Google-search sends me there for something. I wouldn't have crapped myself if they said they were mastered from 24/44.1. I'm surprised they even told anyone that.
This guy cut the vinyl...
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/search/1394390/

We already had our own thread here...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....75&start=75


btw, in asking for proof that "pressing vinyl from CD-R is a standard practice in the industry" - aren't you setting up a straw man there? I mean, whether the source is a CD-R, a pressed CD, some 16/44.1 files off a DAW, 16/48 off a DAT back in the day, etc - they're all (what I think you believe to be) comparatively low resolution sources.

None of us have a large enough sample to claim what the majority practice is these days, but using those as sources for vinyl releases is certainly common practice. Signal analysis proves it. Some engineers admit it. As you said, given the market, "I'm surprised they even told anyone that" - well, indeed - which is why you can't always believe claims that higher resolution sources have been used. Sometimes, on various formats, such claims have been conclusively debunked.


It is not unexpected that no one here really cares. No one has ever proven an audible difference (other than vinyl can have obvious flaws). The entire point of HA is to improve what makes an audible difference, and ignore what does not.

Cheers,
David.
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Kees de Visser
post Feb 27 2013, 11:38
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Emil Berliner Studios has re-introduced vinyl mastering a few years ago.
One of the options is direct-to-disc vinyl, which seems to offer higher-than-redbook quality audio, at least in theory.
Looking at their analogue suite equipment, it seems also rather likely that hi-res audio is quite common. Plenty of DAW's and analog gear.

http://www.emil-berliner-studios.com/en/vinyl.html
http://berliner-meister-schallplatten.de/en/direct_to_disc
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probedb
post Feb 27 2013, 11:55
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 27 2013, 10:15) *
The entire point of HA is to improve what makes an audible difference, and ignore what does not.


I think HA needs that as a tag line smile.gif So many people don't seem to get it.
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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 12:00
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 27 2013, 03:42) *
...
That I felt the need to defend our community against your disrespectful insults was yet another issue...


Absolute BS. The insults didn't begin with me and you very well know it. In fact the person with the most and biggest insults in this thread is you...the moderator. You tried to gloss over some of them or be vague with others...but many were very blatant. The only person I really insulted was you...and that was on the basis of your blatant bias and the way you "moderate." I called Arny Dr. Krueger because he was disrespectful and insulting most of all by playing psychologist over an internet comment.

(Edit: "...the record company you attacked (and now herald as your example of how business is done and should be done in the industry..." I fairly admitted being mistaken or jumping to conclusions already. My ego will allow me to confess that I was wrong and I stated more than once that I regretted starting the topic. Mostly because of that.)

You weren't defending anyone from my insults. You were the most egregious example of disrespect here. Frame this differently now but all it comes down to is your petty grudges against certain members and your outrageous biases that blind you to the most BS statements in the thread are unfitting of the very word "moderator." If I were to truly insult you I'd call you a hack. You've acted like one here, but I won't.

Garf? Anybody??

@Kees de Visser: thanks for your input smile.gif

@David: thanks for yours as well. I understand that many here won't care. That's why I was really hoping I could post something about vinyl (perhaps it should have gone in that forum?) without getting OT trolled by the usual suspects (not referring to you.)

Perhaps I've created a strawman. but it was a mere response to unchecked BS about how it always happens. It clearly does not.



This post has been edited by Engelsstaub: Feb 27 2013, 12:29


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noiselab
post Feb 27 2013, 13:06
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 26 2013, 23:14) *
I'm just wondering how much vinyl is pressed using a CD-R when the music was recorded and edited at a higher sampling rate and bit depth.

I find it "odd" to do so. The only record company I've thus far got a response from says they think so as well. They stated that they'd never do it. I wasn't asking for an argument about CD vs. vinyl or if I can hear frequencies beyond Nyquist or how well they're reproduced on vinyl.

Think of it this way: I invest a considerable amount of my time cleaning up needledrops of material that I feel was overly-compressed for the CD-version. It's important to me in an academic sense.

I just want to know. Whether it "matters" or not. It matters (maybe for less of a good reason than I imagine) to the label I asked and it matters to me. That's all.


QUOTE
Yeah, I'm not trying to play that "16 bits is more than enough for vinyl!" flame-fest. That's not even what I'm getting at.

So tell me how it's handled. I believe it should be handled at at least 24/48. I don't think I need to be a musician to state that.

...but enlighten me. Seriously. I'm not above being wrong.

I'm not stating that Redbook isn't adequate as a delivery-format. I'm also aware that some labels were said to have used lossy for mastering CDs. That's even bigger crap...but this is still completely unprofessional IMO.

So you're saying anything less than 24/48 is unprofessional because of? ...of loss in sound quality? (hard to see why else lossy could be relevant)

If so, then "CD vs vinyl" relevant to the topic. Because most people here believe there is no loss in sound quality, at least any that's of audible substance.

QUOTE
My entire thing is that IMO there's no reason not to use higher than Redbook until it goes to Redbook.


But if there's no reason to use higher than Redbook either, what's there to be shocked about and why are the band dumbasses?

What you think is unprofessional or odd comes across as completely arbitrary to most of the people in this forum. (And IIRC, you think DRC is a problem and yet at the same time refer to record labels as a reliable authority?) This is why you're being questioned on why it matters to you. This forum cares about scientific validity, so you can't just make arbitrary statements or opinions or questions, and then expect no one will try to argue with you. And you can't just ask for enlightenment and a productive conversation (or did you?), while expecting not to hear about "CD vs vinyl" when it's relevant to very nature of topic.

I believe what I believe because of the sources below. I'm personally more keen on believing audio engineers of academic merit who give reasoned explanations and arguments, rather than a record label reps who know more about business than science.

why the bit depth doesn't matter for vinyl:
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil....html#toc_1bv2b
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...ble_frequencies

why the sample rate doesn't matter for vinyl:
http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil...g.html#toc_gmye
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...s_can_reproduce
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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 13:26
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QUOTE (noiselab @ Feb 27 2013, 06:06) *
...
So you're saying anything less than 24/48 is unprofessional because of? ...of loss in sound quality? (hard to see why else lossy could be relevant)

If so, then "CD vs vinyl" relevant to the topic. Because most people here believe there is no loss in sound quality, at least any that's of audible substance.
...
I believe what I believe because of the sources below. I'm personally more keen on believing audio engineers of academic merit who give reasoned explanations and arguments, rather than a record label reps who know more about business than science....


Lossy was relevant because I was referring to a much talked about thing here regarding Century Media using MP3 sources to press CDs. You should check out my copy of Sentenced "The Cold White Light." ...you weren't expected to know that. It's cool. But it's not what you thought it was.

CD vs. Vinyl is not a relevant topic in this discussion. There's plenty of threads devoted to that. This is not one of them.

I only followed the first link you provided because (nothing to do with you) I've completely tired of this and should have had the common sense to just let it go a long time ago.

I'm quoting exactly what you directed me to here: "It's true that 16 bit linear PCM audio does not quite cover the entire theoretical dynamic range of the human ear in ideal conditions. Also, there are (and always will be) reasons to use more than 16 bits in recording and production."

First of all there's no real byline here let alone any indication that this is written by an "audio engineer of academic merit." All I see is -Monty. Could be Monty Hall for all I know. Not seeing a proper accreditation let alone the lofty credentials you've assigned to this seeming blog.

Second: what I just quoted doesn't seem to bolster your assertions at all. Read it again, please with special emphasis on that last sentence.

Thank you.

Edit: I just followed the other non-HA Wiki (not accredited to any audio engineer of academic merit either) link and was a bit dismayed to see -Monty again all the way at the bottom. Would somebody please help me out and tell me who this Monty is?

This post has been edited by Engelsstaub: Feb 27 2013, 13:40


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db1989
post Feb 27 2013, 13:59
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Montgomery
The “xiphmont” in the links posted immediately adjacent to the links to the wiki might be seen in retrospect as a handy clue. wink.gif

QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 27 2013, 11:00) *
If I were to truly insult you I'd call you a hack. You've acted like one here, but I won't.
Although having precisely no desire to get involved in the catfight spirited debate between you two, I will say that it’s almost unbelievably naïve for anyone to think that s/he can be innocent of throwing an insult by framing it in hypothetical terms. The phrase “You can’t have your cake and eat it too” comes to mind.
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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 14:09
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Feb 27 2013, 06:59) *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Montgomery
The “xiphmont” in the links posted immediately adjacent to the links to the wiki might be seen in retrospect as a handy clue. wink.gif

QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 27 2013, 11:00) *
If I were to truly insult you I'd call you a hack. You've acted like one here, but I won't.
Although having precisely no desire to get involved in the catfight spirited debate between you two, I will say that it’s almost unbelievably naïve for anyone to think that s/he can be innocent of throwing an insult by framing it in hypothetical terms. The phrase “You can’t have your cake and eat it too” comes to mind.


Cool. Xiphmont seemed to say exactly the opposite of what noiselab was thinking he said.

It wasn't naive. It was an insult. I am an unprofessional unworthy of commenting on what I think is professional and can't read. greynol moderated this entire thread like a hack. The italics on the word won't (which you left out while quoting me) should have been the clue that I was to be understood as calling him a hack in a clever way.

I appreciate your handy clue though. wink.gif Edit @noiselab: I'm still not seeing his credentials as an "audio engineer of academic merit." Sounds like the guy's a helluva programmer though. (Seriously...)

This post has been edited by Engelsstaub: Feb 27 2013, 14:14


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noiselab
post Feb 27 2013, 14:24
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To the first - I'm not really fussed about credentials to begin with, so I shouldn't have mentioned that part, sorry (Or is audio programming not considered audio engineering? oops). I meant to emphasize reasoned explanations, which I'm having a hard time finding from you or the label on why a cd source matters for vinyl.

You think the cd-r format, and anyhting less than 24/48, is unprofessional and odd, why? You think CD-sourced vinyls would shock people, and that it matters to you and label, why?
Only sensible answer I can think of is loss in audio quality. So cd vs vinyl seems pretty relevant. Or you're being arbitrary, which is self-defeating.

To the second - Those reasons do not include vinyl. Read it again, please with no selective reading lol ...and special emphasis on "no loss in sound quality, at least any that's of audible substance."
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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 14:58
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QUOTE (noiselab @ Feb 27 2013, 07:24) *
...
You think the cd-r format, and anyhting less than 24/48, is unprofessional and odd, why?...Only sensible answer I can think of is loss in audio quality. So cd vs vinyl seems pretty relevant. Or you're being arbitrary, which is self-defeating.

To the second - Those reasons do not include vinyl. Read it again, please with no selective reading lol ...and special emphasis on "no loss in sound quality, at least any that's of audible substance."


"It's true that 16 bit linear PCM audio does not quite cover the entire theoretical dynamic range of the human ear in ideal conditions. Also, there are (and always will be) reasons to use more than 16 bits in recording and production.

None of that is relevant to playback..."

The person you wanted me to read gave a very good reason to not produce a non-Redbook playback format from a source that he admits is less than ideal for production. Cutting records is not playback. ...and there's no reason not to use the theoretical best that you can.

If you want to start a topic about CD vs. Vinyl be my guest. This one has already been OT-crapped in enough. I'm tired of more than this and going to sleep. It's not you...you're just late to the party and it's already been crashed and turned into a huge drama fest. If you want to argue now I'm just going to say you're absolutely right tomorrow and move on. I've pretty much had it with one person in particular and judging by correspondence outside the thread, I can rest assured I"m not alone. That's not you and I apologize that you caught the tail-end of it.

Just start a new thread or something please.



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2Bdecided
post Feb 27 2013, 15:21
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The reasons for using more than 16-bits during production do not apply to cutting vinyl.

24-bit production is to 16-bit digital release what 16-bit master is to vinyl release: more than sufficient quality headroom.

There would be no harm in using more though, and as I've mentioned already, there would be circumstances when "more" (bits or Hz) would be detectable in the final output (though not necessarily using human ears as the detector).

To clarify: 16-bits really us more than enough to master vinyl, but optimal 16-bits usually uses noise shaping, and that noise shaped around 20kHz might be visible on a spectrogram of vinyl replay. You could avoid that either by not using noise shaping (result would still be better than vinyl = noise floor would be quieter than vinyl), or by staying at 20 or 24-bits. No audible differences any which way IMO; YMMV wink.gif

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Feb 27 2013, 15:23
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frozenspeed
post Feb 27 2013, 16:11
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Who cares what the vessel looks like, in this case it's the bits inside that counts.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 27 2013, 16:22
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 25 2013, 22:00) *
"This actually happens all the time" is a pretty sweeping statement and I called bullshit. You can +1 Google-style all day long but until someone can back such a statement up it remains in the realm of bullshit from someone who said it always happens as if they know.


In the above sentence we see "This actually happens all the time" (in US English idiom meaning it happens very often) transmorgified into "it always happens". Sorry for speaking in my native idiom, what you interpreted is not what I meant to say.

QUOTE
I reasonably asked for any credible indication that this is true in the face of what little I have from just one record co. that claims otherwise.


I explained to you why its hard to do better, and after watching this thread spin on for a while, I see that as expected nobody can do better because its simply that difficult to find out.

BTW your record company is hardly a household name while the record company that was paying the bills for much of the work I related was Motown.

QUOTE
Nobody has even attempted to back it up. ...until such time as one can reasonably demonstrate this then bullshit it is.


Until you've done better yourself, then you are indicting yourself.

BTW, the technical statements you misrepresented as just my personal opinions are easily backed up with referreed papers in the IEEE and AES transaction. Or, just get your hands dirty and transcribe any of the goodly number of test LPs that are available onto digital and measure the capabilities of the format for yourself. Just guessing, but I suspect that doing the lab work or even just interpreting the technical papers would be well beyond your competence with audio technology, as basic chores as they are.

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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 27 2013, 16:27
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 27 2013, 09:21) *
The reasons for using more than 16-bits during production do not apply to cutting vinyl.

24-bit production is to 16-bit digital release what 16-bit master is to vinyl release: more than sufficient quality headroom.


16 bit digital is to the analog signal coming off of the mixing console what 24 bits is to 16: more than sufficient headroom.

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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 27 2013, 16:43
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 26 2013, 17:43) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 26 2013, 06:13) *
QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 25 2013, 22:00) *
"This actually happens all the time" is a pretty sweeping statement and I called bullshit.


Call it what you will.

It is clear that you have even less reliable information to share than we have.


Again, sir I beseech thee: Where. Is. Your. Information?!


It is in my post.
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krabapple
post Feb 27 2013, 20:18
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QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 27 2013, 03:46) *
Shut it down then. Once again: I got nothing but snark from any of these people who you say possess a great deal of knowledge about this topic. In fact, they contributed nothing to demonstrate that pressing vinyl from CD-R is a standard practice in the industry...which is fine.



Is cutting vinyl from a Redbook-limited master (including CD-R) ever done? I'm sure it is. Is it 'a standard practice'? I don't know. Do I care? Should anyone? Nope, or a least, not because it's *Redbook*. A digital master (Redbook included) will be a technically superior source (in terms of even frequency response, available dynamic range, pitch stability, low distortion, within the audible band) than analog tape ever could be. So it's not an automatic 'fail', as you rather dramatically suggest it is in your thread title.

If the master (of any kind -- analog or digital) has been burdened with bad recording or bad production or bad mastering, that's the fault of the people involved, not the format.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Feb 27 2013, 20:19
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krabapple
post Feb 27 2013, 20:21
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QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Feb 27 2013, 09:21) *
The reasons for using more than 16-bits during production do not apply to cutting vinyl.

24-bit production is to 16-bit digital release what 16-bit master is to vinyl release: more than sufficient quality headroom.

There would be no harm in using more though, and as I've mentioned already, there would be circumstances when "more" (bits or Hz) would be detectable in the final output (though not necessarily using human ears as the detector).

To clarify: 16-bits really us more than enough to master vinyl, but optimal 16-bits usually uses noise shaping, and that noise shaped around 20kHz might be visible on a spectrogram of vinyl replay. You could avoid that either by not using noise shaping (result would still be better than vinyl = noise floor would be quieter than vinyl), or by staying at 20 or 24-bits. No audible differences any which way IMO; YMMV wink.gif

Cheers,
David.



Monty notes in http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml, than analog tape has at best 13-bit performance, and that's including noise reduction.
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Engelsstaub
post Feb 27 2013, 23:06
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 27 2013, 09:22) *
QUOTE (Engelsstaub @ Feb 25 2013, 22:00) *
"This actually happens all the time" is a pretty sweeping statement and I called bullshit. You can +1 Google-style all day long but until someone can back such a statement up it remains in the realm of bullshit from someone who said it always happens as if they know.


In the above sentence we see "This actually happens all the time" (in US English idiom meaning it happens very often) transmorgified into "it always happens". Sorry for speaking in my native idiom, what you interpreted is not what I meant to say.

...
Just guessing, but I suspect that doing the lab work or even just interpreting the technical papers would be well beyond your competence with audio technology, as basic chores as they are.


Regarding "this happens all the time:" that's strange what you're doing now...it wasn't even you that said it but now you're owning it as your own words? To give me a lesson in my native language?? Even if it happens most of the time or a lot of the time or much of the time it seems at odds with the only things presented here from modern record companies. That's pretty sparse thus far, but I quoted one and so did Kees de Visser.

"...nobody can do better because its simply that difficult to find out." (Now that you said.) That's a glaring contrast to "This happens all the time" whether the phrase is idiomatic or not. ...or is my English failing me again?

When Porcus calmly asked a moderator to explain his statement that "AFAIC, opinions about what constitutes professionalism from a non-professional should be dismissed." ...he was dismissed with a professional "YAWN." It's already evident that two of you can not be troubled to have a conversation with the little people here but this is the best one yet:

"...just interpreting the technical papers would be well beyond your competence with audio technology, as basic chores as they are." ...arrogance is one thing. My only response to this (since it's going unmoderated as well) is you can take your past psychoanalysis, present English-lesson, and this little morsel here and shove them. You must be a sad little man if you think you know people based on some internet comments. If I were to sit and pretend I know who you are and what you're capable of I'd first ask you if you even went outside yet today.


--------------------
The Loudness War is over. Now it's a hopeless occupation.
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