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DTS Audio CDs
duchski2
post Apr 1 2010, 17:53
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I searched the web for a definitive answer but still could not find definitive specs for what is called DTS CD i.e. CD encoded with audio in DTS format.

As I understand DTS files are "encapsulated" in wav format so to the CD player thay look like "normal" wav files i.e. 16 bit, 44.1khz etc but then inside the fake wav file is a DTS encoded audio info. Now, what are the specs for the actual DTS stream inside the "wav" file i.e what DTS bit rates, sampling freq. etc are allowed?




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Skelsgard
post Apr 1 2010, 19:41
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Keep in mind that the DTS CD will not be playable by a standard CD player, it will produce only noise. You'll need the send the signal thru S/PDIF to a receiver with DTS decoding to play it properly.
The specs are up to 5.1 channels - 44100 Hz - 16bit - 1411kbps.

This post has been edited by Skelsgard: Apr 1 2010, 19:42


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DVDdoug
post Apr 1 2010, 20:39
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I think this is a "hack". So, I don't believe there are any formal specs or standards. (This isn't part of the CD, DVD-video, DVD-Audio, or Blu-Ray spec.)

SurCode uses a bitrate of 1234kps.
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duchski2
post Apr 1 2010, 23:08
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QUOTE (DVDdoug @ Apr 1 2010, 15:39) *
I think this is a "hack". So, I don't believe there are any formal specs or standards. (This isn't part of the CD, DVD-video, DVD-Audio, or Blu-Ray spec.)

SurCode uses a bitrate of 1234kps.



DVDDoug,

It is definetely kind of a hack as it circumvents CD-DA specs by hiding not sanctioned by Red Book DTS info inside a fully compliant CD-DA.
You could say DTS CDs are fully compliant recordings of white noise wink.gif and as such they have to APPEAR as being 44.1khz/16bit/1411kbit streams.

When you are sying Surcode produced a 1234kps file do you mean the wav or the actual bit rate of the "encapsulated" DTS stream?

Also, do you know the sampling frequency of an actual DTS stream inside the pseudo-wave? Is it 44.1Khz or 48Khz?

This post has been edited by duchski2: Apr 1 2010, 23:09
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Skelsgard
post Apr 2 2010, 07:21
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The files to be encoded (WAVs) have to be 44.1 kHz 16 bit up to 5.1 channels (1411 kbps).
The final kbps used in the DTS WAV file is 1234 effective kbps but the encoding is done at 1411kbps. The difference between the 1411 kbps and the 1234 kbps can be explained by a signal level reduction intended to avoid saturation of speakers.
The final DTS WAV is 44.1 kHz.


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duchski2
post Apr 2 2010, 18:18
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QUOTE (Skelsgard @ Apr 2 2010, 02:21) *
The files to be encoded (WAVs) have to be 44.1 kHz 16 bit up to 5.1 channels (1411 kbps).
The final kbps used in the DTS WAV file is 1234 effective kbps but the encoding is done at 1411kbps. The difference between the 1411 kbps and the 1234 kbps can be explained by a signal level reduction intended to avoid saturation of speakers.
The final DTS WAV is 44.1 kHz.



Thanks so much Skelsgard. I have several DTS files as .dts which are 48000 and was wondering if there is any way to encode them to dtswave i.e. .wav so they can be burned into a CD-DA compliant ROM... Based on what you wrote I understand that I would have to first downsample them to 44.1... Is that a lossy process? What is the best tool to extract wavs from .dts file and then downsample to 44.1K? I have SureCode Pro to reencode files to dtswav...
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DVDdoug
post Apr 2 2010, 23:00
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QUOTE
... Based on what you wrote I understand that I would have to first downsample them to 44.1...

...What is the best tool to extract wavs from .dts file and then downsample to 44.1K?
See this post. (I've never done ths, so I don't know if those programs will work, but you can try 'em.)

QUOTE
Is that a lossy process?
Yes. In order to resample, the DTS has to be decompressed, resampled, and and then re-compressed. DTS is lossy compression and you have a 2nd lossy compression step. (If it turns out that you need to convert to uncompressed WAV as an internmediate step, this step is not lossy.)

I have another suggestion:
Since your files are 48kHz (DVD standard), why don't you just make a DVD? You can make a standard "slideshow" DVD complete with a menu that will play on any* DVD player. A Video DVD needs some video, but the "video" can be a still image. For example, a picture of text showing the artist & title.

If you don't have DVD Authoring software, here are some suggestions:
DVD Styler (FREE!!!)
DVD Flick (FREE!!!)
DVD-Lab ($100 - $250 USD)

Or, Wikipedia has a list of DVD authoring applications.

I haven't used DVD Styler or DVD Flick, but my impression is that DVD Styler looks very powerful and DVD Flick looks lightweight.




* I have to qualify that because DTS is not required by the standards and some DVD players can't decode it. If it was me, I'd include both an AC3 and a DTS track. And, some DVD players have trouble with "burned" DVDs.
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Skelsgard
post Apr 2 2010, 23:14
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The conversion is never lossy when recoding (unless using lossless to lossless formats) and you hve to do resampling for Surcode to accept the files for DTS WAV.
Use eac3to + the Arcsfot HD audio filters to decode to mono wavs and then use Surcode to recompress to DTS WAV. aec3to uses SSRC which is a high quiality resampling tool.
Eac3to command line to achieve the decoding to 6 mono wav files is:

eac3to source.dts output.wavs -resampleTo44100


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Cavaille
post Apr 3 2010, 02:13
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Guys, dont want to intrude here, but DTS-CDs can store 24 Bit / 44.100 Hz. It is perfectly clear in the helpfile of the SurCode DTS encoder. TELARC produced a few discs using this format. And they are "real" compact disc - one can read a bit more at Wikipedia.


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Skelsgard
post Apr 3 2010, 05:08
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QUOTE (Cavaille @ Apr 2 2010, 22:13) *
Guys, dont want to intrude here, but DTS-CDs can store 24 Bit / 44.100 Hz. It is perfectly clear in the helpfile of the SurCode DTS encoder. TELARC produced a few discs using this format. And they are "real" compact disc - one can read a bit more at Wikipedia.


Actually, you don't deal with bitdepth when talking about lossy formats that work in the frequency domain.
DTS/AC3/MP3/others really don't have a resolution/bitdepth. They might have a header that contains info about the source but that's all.
Only lossless formats keep the bitdepth.


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duchski2
post Apr 4 2010, 08:27
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QUOTE (Cavaille @ Apr 2 2010, 21:13) *
Guys, dont want to intrude here, but DTS-CDs can store 24 Bit / 44.100 Hz. It is perfectly clear in the helpfile of the SurCode DTS encoder. TELARC produced a few discs using this format. And they are "real" compact disc - one can read a bit more at Wikipedia.



Ok. What about the sampling freq, can DTS-CD contain 48,000 Hz files?
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andy o
post Apr 4 2010, 16:46
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The PCM "noise" is stereo 44.1 kHz, but when decoded, the DTS stream will be 5.1-channel 48 kHz. You can download DTS wav files from the net and check them out. I don't know how this would work for DTS 96/24 streams though, whose bitrates are probably higher.

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duchski2
post Apr 5 2010, 02:01
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QUOTE (andy o @ Apr 4 2010, 11:46) *
The PCM "noise" is stereo 44.1 kHz, but when decoded, the DTS stream will be 5.1-channel 48 kHz. You can download DTS wav files from the net and check them out. I don't know how this would work for DTS 96/24 streams though, whose bitrates are probably higher.



Andy,
Thanks for the info. Do you know of an app that would write wav headers (wrap dts file in a wav container) other than dts2wav which does not work under Win 7?

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andy o
post Apr 5 2010, 08:09
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Nope, sorry all my experience with these is with playback.
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GeSomeone
post Apr 13 2010, 17:07
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QUOTE (duchski2 @ Apr 4 2010, 09:27) *
Ok. What about the sampling freq, can DTS-CD contain 48,000 Hz files?
It could depend on the (DTS) encoder, but so far I was only able to encode 44.1kHz input files on DTS-CD. When trying 48kHz the playback speed was totally wrong.

QUOTE (andy o @ Apr 4 2010, 17:46) *
The PCM "noise" is stereo 44.1 kHz, but when decoded, the DTS stream will be 5.1-channel 48 kHz. [..] I don't know how this would work for DTS 96/24 streams though, whose bitrates are probably higher.
DTS(WAV) files can be either either 44.1 or 48kHz. AFAIK the DTS-CD (44.1kHz) that can be burned on a CD, can only contain 44.1 kHz payload (see above). You can use 24 bit input however (as you can for making mp3's). The 96/24 extension can only be used in a full bit rate, 1536 kbps, stream and it will have a 48kHz core for backwards compatibility.

BTW the channel layout does not necessarily have to be 5.1. It could also be 5.0, 4.0 or even 2.0 although the last one is hardly ever used (I'm not sure about 4.1).


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luigiagostini
post Aug 14 2011, 10:42
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Hi,

I produce 3D audio disc that you can play on a regular 7.1 home theater system if you use a switcher for Center and LFE channels.
Two more satellites are needed, as Lsh and Rsh, and you must use Lh and Rh.

I can assure you that you can store and playback eight channels at 24 bit, 96 kHz using DTS HD Master Audio and HDMI 1,4 to connect the player and the A/V receiver.
In my opinion this is the best configuration in terms of quality.

My two cents...

Ciao, Luigi
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