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so what to expect for lame 4?, and all about it
adlai
post Jan 25 2005, 03:44
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so, I have a few questions about LAME 4.

1. Who's developing it? LAME devs? Or wasn't some Japanese guy doing it?

2. If it's the future, why are other LAME versions being released?

3. what sort of quality will it be? from what I've seen, it's supposed to be really fast... which is nice, but that wouldn't matter if it's quality were not as good as 3.90.3

4. when will it come out?
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Digga
post Jan 25 2005, 03:56
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all your questions are answerd in the forum already. SEARCH.


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rjamorim
post Jan 25 2005, 04:06
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QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 25 2005, 12:44 AM)
1. Who's developing it? LAME devs? Or wasn't some Japanese guy doing it?


Mostly Takehiro Tominaga, which happens to be a japanese guy and a LAME dev.

QUOTE
2. If it's the future, why are other LAME versions being released?


It's a big rewrite of several parts of Lame, so, while it is being written, old small bugs are being addressed in the old codebase. I don't think heavy tuning is going on at the 3.x code, though.

QUOTE
3. what sort of quality will it be? from what I've seen, it's supposed to be really fast... which is nice, but that wouldn't matter if it's quality were not as good as 3.90.3


From what I heard, the first versions aren't going to output very high quality, but they are going to be blazing fast and, better of all, the code will be clean, which will hopefully make tuning much easier than playing with the horribly messy code of current Lame.

QUOTE
4. when will it come out?
*


When it's ready rolleyes.gif


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rjamorim
post Jan 25 2005, 04:07
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QUOTE (Digga @ Jan 25 2005, 12:56 AM)
SEARCH.
*


Good luck searching for "LAME 4" :B


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Digga
post Jan 25 2005, 04:10
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http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....opic=29575&st=0
well, this is prolly the most important thread, mainly post 15.

(edit) besides,
QUOTE
1. Who's developing it? LAME devs? Or wasn't some Japanese guy doing it?
I'm not sure if I'm the only one who thinks that ignorance is not an excuse for being not polite.

This post has been edited by Digga: Jan 25 2005, 04:12


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rjamorim
post Jan 25 2005, 04:15
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QUOTE (Digga @ Jan 25 2005, 01:10 AM)
I'm not sure if I'm the only one who thinks that ignorance is not an excuse for being not polite.
*


Where is he being unpolite? Calling Takehiro a "Japanese guy"? He even capitalized Japanese! :B

Or would you prefer that he refer to him as "a gentleman of Nipponic origin"?


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Digga
post Jan 25 2005, 04:22
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Jan 25 2005, 04:15 AM)
Where is he being unpolite? Calling Takehiro a "Japanese guy"?
I know I'm close to nitpicking here... but I was under the impression that adlai wanted something (i.e. information) without even bothering to search. instead, he wanted others to do his work. this is unpolite IMO. in the light of this, 'some Japanese guy' sounds rather unpolite and careless.
but maybe I take things to serious...

QUOTE
He even capitalized Japanese! :B
he

This post has been edited by Digga: Jan 25 2005, 04:24


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adlai
post Jan 25 2005, 05:02
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lol, a forum fiend. if it's not on the front page, it's worth to post. sheesh
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Digga
post Jan 25 2005, 05:21
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QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 25 2005, 05:02 AM)
if it's not on the front page, it's worth to post.
if it's not on the front page it's worth to search wink.gif


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shadowking
post Jan 25 2005, 05:35
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Hopefully version 4 will be more like Vorbis and MPC and disable destructive command line options that non HA users can't get enough of.

I would love to see just quality based presets mapped to the current V settings:

Q0: Low / Medium (V7)

Q1: Medium quality (V5)

Q2: Medium / High quality (V4)

Q3: High quality ** Default (v2)

Q5: Highest Mp3 quality (CBR320k)

This post has been edited by shadowking: Jan 25 2005, 05:36


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Totuma
post Jan 25 2005, 06:08
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QUOTE (shadowking @ Jan 24 2005, 08:35 PM)
Hopefully version 4 will be more like Vorbis and MPC
*


With the current Lame versions, Vorbis perform better in Killer samples than Lame (based in my own ABX tests...)
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Lev
post Jan 25 2005, 11:00
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Do Takehiro and Gabriel work closely together?
Does Takehiro still post here?
I like the idea of Lame 4 being nice and clean code, but I dunno if its very motivating to Gabriel and his tunings of 3.9x smile.gif

Oh, and I cant get sensible results out of the search on this forum either, but then its a forum full of helpful people, so thats not often a problem smile.gif


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john33
post Jan 25 2005, 11:22
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The current TODO list from the LAME 4.0 source:
QUOTE
encoding core:
1.
LAME has problems with test signals.
1. pure DC input.(i.e. a square wave with a frequency well below 20 Hz)
2. sin sweep signal (i.e. 20Hz->22kHz in 60sec)
3. steep/saw wave (i.e. 100Hz)
Seems not very important, but they are related to "REAL" problem of
some kind of music. 1 and 2 are caused by ATH handling problem.
3 is by short block threshold problem.



2.
To prevent the lower frequency uncertainness (because of FFT length),
we should add the some highpass filter(cut < 20Hz or so) before
psycho-analysis.


3.
Some switches to support the "BUGGY" decoders.
--strictly-enforce-ISO is not perfect to these players.

--sameblock  : forcing to use coupling block type (implemented),
                for some DVD players
--lesserixmax : reduce IXMAX_VAL (not yet), for old winamp.

it seems we do not need --noscfsi or --noscalefac options. That's good news.


4.
short block encoding quality problem

At the high frequency region, LAME4 increases the threshold too much.
And more the worse, there's sfb21 sad.gif


5.
Tag problem.
Still there're some tag problems between VBR(LAME) tag and MS-Windows.
Clipping detection/replaygain tag is supported LAME3.x, but LAME4 does not.



8.
low bitrate quality problem and better intensity stereo support.
and LAME4 should support i-stereo even when MPEG2 Layer3 (currently not).

Note: mpg123 (and all derivatives, like xmms and lame/mpglib)
have bugs in the intensity stereo decoding.  Bugs have been there
for years since there are very few intensity stereo mp3's out there.




9.
We should rewrite all the documentation, such as INSTALL, README*,...


11.
Tuning reservoir handling (especially for low bitrates); CBR arround
90kbps (-b 90) is worse than VBR quality 7 (-V 7). This is probabry
because of poor resorvoir handling.

Right now the code is tuned with the LAME3's pe calculation and
psymodel. Now they are all changed and we should re-tune these code.

2-pass VBR/ABR will perfectly solve the problem, but before it,
we should improve the 1-pass encoding.

And about ABR, it should be removed and new "VBR but some constant bitrate"
algorithm, IMHO.



10.
over 2^31 byte cleaness (especially header handling).


15.
LAME has a 31 point FIR filter used for resampling, which
can also be used as a lowpass.  When resampling is done,
use that filter to also lowpass instead of the polyphase filter.


16.
Even when resampling is not needed, should we use an FIR filter
for the lowpass?  If it is not too much slower, yes.  If it
is slower, then it should be an option since it will produce
higher quality. 


17.
better highpass/lowpass filter:
We need to first replace the polyphase filter with an FIR filter.
And setting highpass filtering to enhance the playback frequency range.


20.
Replacing the resampling code of ssrc (Shibatch sampling rate conv.)
will bring better result. But ssrc only supports some specific frequencies.

So we should use both of ssrc/old resample code...


25.
mp3x does not work at all when the input is too short.



40.
mp3x cannot display subblock of short blocks correctly.



50.
Better tonality estimation.
Nspsytune seems to miss tonals when several of them are too narrow.
maybe nspsy2 based model will solve it.



70.
Use mixed blocks.




998.
Merge GOGO's fast assembler routines.




decoding support.
1.
mp3 decoding is not reentrant nor thread safe.

2.
mp3 decoding support code has poor error recovery.

3
mgplib has bugs with i-stereo.  flag denoting invalid
i-stereo value (= frame is m/s stereo) is not correct.

4.
modify mpglib to output floating point and have finaly quantization
step a easy-to-change module so it can output other than 16bit.
(replace mpglib with MAD?  MAD has agreed to write a call back
which will return all data needed by the frame analyzer)






NOGAP encoding:

-nogap:  more testing, fix options, test id3 tags?
Can we change id3 tags without reseting the encoder??
At the end of encoding 1.wav, call lame_get_mf_samples_to_encode()
to find the number of non encoded buffered PCM samples.  Then
encode samples from 2.wav until these PCM samples have been
encoded, *THEN* call lame_encode_flush_nogap() and close
out file 1.mp3.


NOGAP decoding: 
lame --decode --nogap file1.mp3 file2.mp3 file3.mp3
should also work.  What needs to be done:
get_audio.c:  We need a way to open a second mp3 file, without
              calling lame_decode_init() and reinitializing mpglib.
              And the mpglib needs to know to look for new Xing
              tags at the beginning of file2.mp3 and file3.mp3.


frontend code:

1.
raw file format and options.
--signed, --unsigned, --little-endian and --big-endian do not work correctly.

2.
Code is a complete mess. But it has so many debugged features it will
be a lot of work to re-write.

999.
It would be nice to save some information whilst encoding when
wave <-> mp3
a RIFF/wave can contain LIST chunks with information
about author, title, etc.
id3tag in mp3 can contain these information, too.

auto converting each of them may be good.



Build environment
1. MSVC .net solution files.

2. more 64 bit environment support.

3. check the "HACKY and FAST" code on many environments. They are
really fast, but are not confirmed to run on all environments.

4. NASM version check. LAME4 needs nasm 0.98.38 (or maybe upper).



ACM
see ACM/TODO file


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smz
post Jan 25 2005, 11:50
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QUOTE (Digga @ Jan 25 2005, 05:22 AM)
QUOTE (rjamorim @ Jan 25 2005, 04:15 AM)
Where is he being unpolite? Calling Takehiro a "Japanese guy"?
I know I'm close to nitpicking here... but I was under the impression that adlai wanted something (i.e. information) without even bothering to search. instead, he wanted others to do his work. this is unpolite IMO. in the light of this, 'some Japanese guy' sounds rather unpolite and careless.
but maybe I take things to serious...

QUOTE
He even capitalized Japanese! :B
he
*



WOW! You were "under the impression" he wasn't polite and he didn't bothered to do a search. I'm impressed.. you must have very strong psychic powers.

Did you botherd, as Roberto suggested, to do a "LAME 4" search?

Frankly, Digga, I don't like your frequent attitude at shooting a "SEARCH" at everbody that is looking something you already happens to know or already have searched for.

Mods are here for moderating the board. If I think a post is wasted bandwidth I just ignore it and don't waste more. I don't try to "educate" every member of this board. I don't think it is my duty and I think it is not everybody's else.

BTW, it turned out that I too got some interesting info from this thread...

Sergio


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Digga
post Jan 25 2005, 17:05
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QUOTE (smz @ Jan 25 2005, 11:50 AM)
WOW! You were "under the impression" he wasn't polite and he didn't bothered to do a search. I'm impressed.. you must have very strong psychic powers.
WOW, do I? as you know very well, I surly do not. just common sense (which then maybe is not so common at all, regarding my side).
QUOTE
Did you botherd, as Roberto suggested, to do a "LAME 4" search?
yes. I did this some time ago, because I was also interested in LAME 4 and came up (among other) with the link I posted above.
QUOTE
Frankly, Digga, I don't like your frequent attitude at shooting a "SEARCH" at everbody that is looking something you already happens to know or already have searched for.
Mods are here for moderating the board. If I think a post is wasted bandwidth I just ignore it and don't waste more. I don't try to "educate" every member of this board. I don't think it is my duty and I think it is not everybody's else.
BTW, it turned out that I too got some interesting info from this thread...
I don't pretend to know everything, or even a lot. but I think to make others aware that there are other solutions to a problem / reflect their behavior is a good thing most of the time. just as you did now.
In the end, I think we all learn something out of it.
anyway, this has become far OT. I suggest anybody who wants to discuss this further is invited to do so via PM or other means.


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Thor
post Jan 25 2005, 17:23
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QUOTE (Digga @ Jan 25 2005, 05:21 AM)
QUOTE (adlai @ Jan 25 2005, 05:02 AM)
if it's not on the front page, it's worth to post.
if it's not on the front page it's worth to search wink.gif
*


Dude, it doesn't _hurt_ anyone, nor the server to post a question, even if it has been answered before. A forum is a means of communication and in communication it's quite normal to ask questions which have been answered before. If you don't like answering peoples questions, then just don't reply.

-Thor
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xmixahlx
post Jan 25 2005, 19:00
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bunch of women in here


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aclip
post Jan 25 2005, 21:16
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QUOTE (john33 @ Jan 25 2005, 04:22 AM)
The current TODO list from the LAME 4.0 source:
QUOTE
encoding core:
1.
LAME has problems with test signals.
1. pure DC input.(i.e. a square wave with a frequency well below 20 Hz)
2. sin sweep signal (i.e. 20Hz->22kHz in 60sec)
3. steep/saw wave (i.e. 100Hz)
Seems not very important, but they are related to "REAL" problem of
some kind of music. 1 and 2 are caused by ATH handling problem.
3 is by short block threshold problem.



2.
To prevent the lower frequency uncertainness (because of FFT length),
we should add the some highpass filter(cut < 20Hz or so) before
psycho-analysis.

<snip -- aclip>

*



encoding core:
0. obfuscate algorithms so some rule-the-code-world hatchetmen don't claim patents on every idea expressed within.

aclip laugh.gif
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ezra2323
post Jan 25 2005, 22:40
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Somewhat on topic......

The following is the official Hydrogen Audio position on LAME 3.90.3 and 3.96.1.

QUOTE
The presets (--alt-preset xxx) for the 3.90.X branch of LAME were designed by many of the original members of this site and were exhaustively tested to make sure that they utilized the best possible settings for quality. Subsequent versions of LAME broke compatibility with these presets to allow for many other improvements (faster, bug issues, etc), thus making a temporary regression in quality. LAME 3.96.1 seemed as though it might be about the same quality as 3.90.3 in some of the tests done after it was released. However, in the minds of the administration of this forum it has not yet been tested extensively enough, thus 3.90.3 is still the recommended version. LAME 3.96.1 has been proven to be of superior quality for some bitrates where there are no VBR presets for 3.90.3, only ABR. Thus 3.90.3 --alt-preset standard is considered to be better than 3.96.1 -V 2 (--preset standard) but 3.96.1 -V 5 (approximatly 128kb/s) is better then 3.90.3 --alt-preset 128. It is also worth noting that 3.96.1 is at least twice as fast as 3.90.3 for encoding and that -V 2 produces slightly smaller files then --alt-preset standard.


Given what we have read about 3.97 and 4.0 above (basically - they ar ethe focus and in development), can we assume that 3.96.1 will never be as well tested as 3.09.3??? If it will be tested extensively enough to be able to make a firm recommendation one way or another, who is doing this testing and when will it be completed?

Sorry for an "annoying" question but I see the 3.90.3 vs. 3.96.1 question and argument all over this forum.
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magic75
post Jan 26 2005, 07:41
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Testing is done here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=30631&hl=
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AgentMil
post Jan 26 2005, 12:10
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QUOTE (xmixahlx @ Jan 26 2005, 02:00 AM)
bunch of women in here
*


Throws xmixahlx a beer... grab a seat! biggrin.gif


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