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EAC 0.99 pb3 & AccurateRip, Sync Error, then no Error.
Joshatdot
post Dec 11 2007, 08:10
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1st time posting, long time Google'er of this site.

I've been looking thru some of my CD's to test AccurateRip. My 1st CD ripping (after finding 3 CD's for verifying). I got Sync Error on the last track, and afterwards I unchecked Overread Lead-In/Out, then only ripped the last track, and I got 100%.

I'll try the whole CD another time to see if I get 100%, or Sync Error again.

CODE
Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 3 from 28. July 2007

EAC extraction logfile from 10. December 2007, 22:50

Fatboy Slim / Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes

Used drive : OPTORITEDVD RW DD1203 Adapter: 0 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 691
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : Yes
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : Yes
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate : 192 kBit/s
Quality : High
Add ID3 tag : No
Command line compressor : C:\Program Files\FLAC\flac.exe
Additional command line options : -5 -V -T "artist=%a" -T "title=%t" -T "album=%g" -T "date=%y" -T "tracknumber=%n" -T "genre=%m" -T comment="%e" -T "comment=EAC (Secure Mode)" %s


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 6:00.54 | 0 | 27053
2 | 6:00.54 | 7:14.14 | 27054 | 59617
3 | 13:14.68 | 5:48.16 | 59618 | 85733
4 | 19:03.09 | 6:35.61 | 85734 | 115419
5 | 25:38.70 | 4:44.37 | 115420 | 136756
6 | 30:23.32 | 6:18.30 | 136757 | 165136
7 | 36:41.62 | 4:34.72 | 165137 | 185758
8 | 41:16.59 | 6:41.63 | 185759 | 215896
9 | 47:58.47 | 6:54.70 | 215897 | 247016
10 | 54:53.42 | 6:24.45 | 247017 | 275861


Track 1

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\01 - Wildchild , Renegade Master (Fatboy Slim Old Skool Mix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC F61103E7
Copy CRC F61103E7
Accurately ripped (confidence 7) [27BE710E]
Copy OK

Track 2

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\02 - Stretch 'N Vern , Get Up! Go Insane! (Fatboy Really Lost It Mix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3EFB8C8E
Copy CRC 3EFB8C8E
Accurately ripped (confidence 5) [F942BD3E]
Copy OK

Track 3

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\03 - Deeds Plus Thoughts , The World's Made Up Of This & That (Fatboy Slim Remix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 871FB947
Copy CRC 871FB947
Accurately ripped (confidence 5) [F1BE8EAA]
Copy OK

Track 4

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\04 - F.c. Kahuna , What Is Kahuna (Fatboy Slim's 'Smell The Kahuna' Mix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 2AFDF64A
Copy CRC 2AFDF64A
Accurately ripped (confidence 5) [DC760B66]
Copy OK

Track 5

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\05 - Psychedeliasmith , Dubby Jointy (Fatboy Slim Remix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC D8B4D60B
Copy CRC D8B4D60B
Accurately ripped (confidence 5) [402E09B9]
Copy OK

Track 6

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\06 - Mighty Dub Katz , Magic Carpet Ride (Fatboy Slim Latin Ska Acid Breakbeat Mix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0BF885E9
Copy CRC 0BF885E9
Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [69FC55FC]
Copy OK

Track 7

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\07 - Christopher Just , I'm A Disco Dancer (Fatboy Slim Remix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 0D9EC9CA
Copy CRC 0D9EC9CA
Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [1B47A4A1]
Copy OK

Track 8

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\08 - Lunatic Calm , Roll The Dice (Fatboy Slim Vocal Mix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 65D06A07
Copy CRC 65D06A07
Accurately ripped (confidence 6) [64FF2CC8]
Copy OK

Track 9

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\09 - Underworld , King Of Snake (Fatboy Slim Remix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3905BA37
Copy CRC 3905BA37
Accurately ripped (confidence 5) [70A61D89]
Copy OK

Track 10

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\10 - Jean Jacques Perrey , E.v.a. (Fatboy Slim Remix).wav

Suspicious position 0:06:24

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Test CRC 1A1D4EE1
Copy CRC E80EF594
Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 7) [F750CBD0], AccurateRip returned [4FE8E613]
Copy finished


9 track(s) accurately ripped
1 track(s) could not be verified as accurate

Some tracks could not be verified as accurate

There were errors

End of status report

------------------------------------------------------------

Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 3 from 28. July 2007

EAC extraction logfile from 10. December 2007, 23:06

Fatboy Slim / Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes

Used drive : OPTORITEDVD RW DD1203 Adapter: 0 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 691
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : Yes
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

Used output format : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate : 192 kBit/s
Quality : High
Add ID3 tag : No
Command line compressor : C:\Program Files\FLAC\flac.exe
Additional command line options : -5 -V -T "artist=%a" -T "title=%t" -T "album=%g" -T "date=%y" -T "tracknumber=%n" -T "genre=%m" -T comment="%e" -T "comment=EAC (Secure Mode)" %s


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 6:00.54 | 0 | 27053
2 | 6:00.54 | 7:14.14 | 27054 | 59617
3 | 13:14.68 | 5:48.16 | 59618 | 85733
4 | 19:03.09 | 6:35.61 | 85734 | 115419
5 | 25:38.70 | 4:44.37 | 115420 | 136756
6 | 30:23.32 | 6:18.30 | 136757 | 165136
7 | 36:41.62 | 4:34.72 | 165137 | 185758
8 | 41:16.59 | 6:41.63 | 185759 | 215896
9 | 47:58.47 | 6:54.70 | 215897 | 247016
10 | 54:53.42 | 6:24.45 | 247017 | 275861


Track 10

Filename D:\My Music\Fatboy Slim - Fatboy Slim's Greatest Remixes\10 - Jean Jacques Perrey , E.v.a. (Fatboy Slim Remix).wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC EE16F975
Copy CRC EE16F975
Accurately ripped (confidence 7) [4FE8E613]
Copy OK


All tracks accurately ripped

No errors occurred

End of status report


This post has been edited by Joshatdot: Dec 13 2007, 09:55
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wa11u
post Dec 11 2007, 08:23
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Hi there!
I've had almost identical scenarios with my other drive, dvr112d. If I check overread into lead-in/-out, accuraterip can't verify last track, and if I un check it, no problems. However I don't suffer from any sync errors, it just tells afterwards that the rip wasn't accurate. don't have the logs anymore though. Could someone clarify what's happening? Please??


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gib
post Dec 11 2007, 08:39
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I can't give you a really technical explanation, but basically your drive does not support over-reading into the leadout. If you instruct EAC to try over-reading there will be issues and those issues apparently bother AccurateRip. Just leave it unchecked and you'll be fine.

A side question: if you are using AccurateRip to verify results, why rip with secure mode test & copy? That seems needlessly overkill, not to mention really slow.
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spoon
post Dec 11 2007, 09:54
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>If I check overread into lead-in/-out, accuraterip can't verify last track

Sounds like a bug with EAC, checked or unchecked that data should not be part of EACs CRC calculation for AccurateRip.


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wa11u
post Dec 11 2007, 11:55
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I thought it could be a bug, since my CRC's always match on those few cd's, and there is no error other than the AR verification issue. Maybe the error is always the same: the drive interpolates in hardware basis so that there is no glitch/error when the software sees the situation. This last track issue, however, is absent with dBpoweramp R12.3, tried with and without overread into lead-in/-out option, and it doesn't recommend me to turn the overreading off (as it did with my notebook drive)


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spoon
post Dec 11 2007, 11:58
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Can someone report this to andre please on Digital Inn, I don't have an account there.


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greynol
post Dec 11 2007, 17:45
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If EAC asks a drive to return data from the lead-out which it cannot overread, it will sometimes return null samples (it does not interpolate the data) for the last several (>5) frames plus the offset samples and should(*) do so in a consistent way. The number of frames depends on size of the track or range being ripped.

(*)I do find it interesting that the last track gives different T&C CRCs with overreading enabled, but I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation. It would be helpful to compare files that give different CRCs with overreading enabled.

I'm not about to guess as to why this happens the way it does, but I don't think Andre will consider it a bug. You cannot expect proper performance from an improper configuration.

QUOTE (wa11u @ Dec 10 2007, 23:23) *
I've had almost identical scenarios with my other drive, dvr112d. If I check overread into lead-in/-out, accuraterip can't verify last track, and if I un check it, no problems. However I don't suffer from any sync errors, it just tells afterwards that the rip wasn't accurate. don't have the logs anymore though.
I think your drive is capable of overreading (it's a Pioneer, right?) but you haven't configured EAC to fill up missing offset samples with silence and for this reason AccurateRip will not be able to verify the last track. If this is the situation then you've also recalled incorrectly; AR won't be able to verify the last track if you uncheck overread setting.

Now if your drive truly cannot overread and you're ripping in Burst mode you won't get a sync error, but EAC will still report a suspicious position to the log file. If you're ripping in Secure mode EAC will report a sync error (and a suspicious position to the log file).

You'll have to provide logs to convince me otherwise.

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 11 2007, 19:24


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spoon
post Dec 11 2007, 22:45
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It is a bug because the last 5 frames are not used for calulation, no drive has a big enough offset to be effected by this.


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greynol
post Dec 11 2007, 22:47
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Again, enabling overreading in EAC when a drive doesn't support it can result in non-null data being replaced with null data well beyond the specified offset, including data before the last 5 frames. The program has behaved this way for quite some time now.

You cannot expect proper performance from an improper configuration.

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 12 2007, 00:50


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spoon
post Dec 11 2007, 23:40
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Ok I see, so he reads in big blocks, and if the last block (of many sectors) cannot be read the whole lot is NULLed. Still a bug in my book (we keep knocking 1 sector off and retrying and when a read comes back, the sectors which could not be read are nulled, not the whole lot).


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greynol
post Dec 11 2007, 23:56
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I really don't have an opinion whether this is a bug or not, though I like the way you guys handled it (as with most things that you guys do).


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Joshatdot
post Dec 13 2007, 05:05
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QUOTE (gib @ Dec 10 2007, 23:39) *
I can't give you a really technical explanation, but basically your drive does not support over-reading into the leadout. If you instruct EAC to try over-reading there will be issues and those issues apparently bother AccurateRip. Just leave it unchecked and you'll be fine.

A side question: if you are using AccurateRip to verify results, why rip with secure mode test & copy? That seems needlessly overkill, not to mention really slow.

So I can just use Burst Fast mode and AR?
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greynol
post Dec 13 2007, 05:22
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Let's put it this way, the disc was read a total of four times when it probably would have given the same result had it only been read once.

...but this might not happen with the next disc you try, and if AccurateRip can't verify the result then reading the disc once does little towards ensuring that there were no errors.


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gib
post Dec 13 2007, 05:33
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QUOTE (Joshatdot @ Dec 12 2007, 18:05) *
So I can just use Burst Fast mode and AR?

Yep. There's no need to waste time and wear and tear on the drive. Do a burst rip and if AR says it's good, you're all set. Of course, in the event AR can not verify the rip, and it's not because you have a different pressing than what's in the database, then trying secure mode might be of value.

Edit: as I was staring off in the distance spacing out on the reply screen, greynol beat me be a solid 11 minutes. heh

This post has been edited by gib: Dec 13 2007, 05:37
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Joshatdot
post Dec 13 2007, 09:06
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It might be my CD(s)?:

CODE
Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 3 from 28. July 2007

EAC extraction logfile from 13. December 2007, 0:04

Bach / The Best Of Bach

Used drive : OPTORITEDVD RW DD1203 Adapter: 0 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 691
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : Yes
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : Yes
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
Gap handling : Appended to previous track

Used output format : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate : 192 kBit/s
Quality : High
Add ID3 tag : No
Command line compressor : C:\Program Files\FLAC\flac.exe
Additional command line options : -5 -V -T "artist=%a" -T "title=%t" -T "album=%g" -T "date=%y" -T "tracknumber=%n" -T "genre=%m" -T comment="%e" -T "comment=EAC (Secure Mode)" %s


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.32 | 9:02.63 | 32 | 40744
2 | 9:03.20 | 3:34.07 | 40745 | 56801
3 | 12:37.27 | 4:25.13 | 56802 | 76689
4 | 17:02.40 | 3:41.30 | 76690 | 93294
5 | 20:43.70 | 4:09.67 | 93295 | 112036
6 | 24:53.62 | 4:36.50 | 112037 | 132786
7 | 29:30.37 | 11:39.70 | 132787 | 185281
8 | 41:10.32 | 12:42.45 | 185282 | 242476
9 | 53:53.02 | 1:23.58 | 242477 | 248759
10 | 55:16.60 | 8:54.12 | 248760 | 288821
11 | 64:10.72 | 7:10.05 | 288822 | 321076
12 | 71:21.02 | 2:58.65 | 321077 | 334491
13 | 74:19.67 | 3:02.10 | 334492 | 348151


Track 1

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\01 - Toccata And Fugue In D Minor (Organ) BMV565.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.32

Peak level 84.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 4C3A7603
Copy CRC 4C3A7603
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [E76CE030]
Copy OK

Track 2

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\02 - Jesu, Joy Of Man's Desiring (Orch,Choir).wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:04.35

Peak level 64.6 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 286C51D0
Copy CRC 286C51D0
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [B96E6174]
Copy OK

Track 3

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\03 - Air On The G String (From Suite No. 3 BMV1068).wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:04.62

Peak level 20.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3BF69531
Copy CRC 3BF69531
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [1052D901]
Copy OK

Track 4

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\04 - Preludio (From Partitia No. 3) BMV1006.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:05.05

Peak level 54.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 386D28A2
Copy CRC 386D28A2
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [BD3B45C0]
Copy OK

Track 5

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\05 - Sheep May Safely Graze.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:04.18

Peak level 38.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 986A3E32
Copy CRC 986A3E32
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [FA15B23C]
Copy OK

Track 6

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\06 - Wachet Auf, Ruft Uns Die Stimme BMV645.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:04.60

Peak level 40.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 8D3F1733
Copy CRC 8D3F1733
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [9A3B68F5]
Copy OK

Track 7

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\07 - Brandenburg Concerto No.3 in G BMV1048.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:05.32

Peak level 65.6 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 73816469
Copy CRC 73816469
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [78CA3742]
Copy OK

Track 8

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\08 - Italian Concerto BMV971.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:03.40

Peak level 64.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 606DDACE
Copy CRC 606DDACE
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [518682B7]
Copy OK

Track 9

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\09 - Ein' Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott (From Cantata No.80).wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:05.00

Peak level 57.6 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC EC423F08
Copy CRC EC423F08
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [C7AD734B]
Copy OK

Track 10

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\10 - Violin Concerto In E - 1 BMV1042.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:05.30

Peak level 54.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C58B93E8
Copy CRC C58B93E8
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [DE586E12]
Copy OK

Track 11

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\11 - Violin Concerto In E - 2 BMV1042.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:04.02

Peak level 30.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC BC4C45B9
Copy CRC BC4C45B9
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [8277D341]
Copy OK

Track 12

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\12 - Violin Concerto In E - 3 BMV1042.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:02.67

Peak level 49.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC BA7BADAF
Copy CRC BA7BADAF
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [6AEA65A3]
Copy OK

Track 13

Filename D:\My Music\AccurateRips\Bach - The Best Of Bach\13 - Prelude And Fugue No.5 In D (piano) BMV850.wav

Pre-gap length 0:00:04.35

Peak level 53.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 25989AB3
Copy CRC 25989AB3
Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [03DA7B41]
Copy OK


All tracks accurately ripped

No errors occurred

End of status report


This post has been edited by Joshatdot: Dec 13 2007, 09:55
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greynol
post Dec 13 2007, 09:16
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If the samples in the lead-out turn out to be null then EAC will rip the last track correctly and not report an error.

All of this is normal and fairly well-known behavior for the program.

PS: Please use "codebox" and "/codebox" instead of "code" and "/code" when posting log files. smile.gif

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 13 2007, 09:26


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Joshatdot
post Dec 13 2007, 09:54
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QUOTE (greynol @ Dec 13 2007, 00:16) *
If the samples in the lead-out turn out to be null then EAC will rip the last track correctly and not report an error.

All of this is normal and fairly well-known behavior for the program.

PS: Please use "codebox" and "/codebox" instead of "code" and "/code" when posting log files. smile.gif

nm, edited with codebox

This post has been edited by Joshatdot: Dec 13 2007, 09:55
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wa11u
post Dec 13 2007, 10:45
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@greynol: Yes, it's a pioneer. I may look into this little later, but main point: The problem ISN'T there when using dBpoweramp r12.3 (with or without overreading). If I only could remember which CD it was... hmmm... I'll look into it.


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k.eight.a
post Dec 13 2007, 17:26
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If I remember correctly there are few drives that can overread into lead-out if they have a positive read sample offset correction. In practice it means that if you lose some of the samples from the unreadable part of the CD, either in lead-in or lead-out the chances are small, that your drive will support overreading into that part of the CD. I know that Plextors and maybe other drives are capable.


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greynol
post Dec 13 2007, 17:48
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QUOTE (k.eight.a @ Dec 13 2007, 08:26) *
I know that Plextors and maybe other drives are capable.
Many drives by Pioneer are capable. I happen to have a Yamaha drive that is capable as well.

@wa11u: dBpa doesn't have an option to omit missing offset samples and Spoon already explained why it doesn't have the same problem as EAC when the overread setting is improperly configured, though I don't believe that applies to your situation.

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 13 2007, 17:52


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wa11u
post Dec 13 2007, 18:59
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Update: Found the CD: Metallica - Ride the Lightning.
Now EAC won't find correct read command if C2 is on. MMC1 is what it suggests for the drive. burst mode reports (made a quick test to find the album) timing error. In dBpa C2 was detected. twiggling little more with the program. Darn...

EDIT:
Ok, think I found the problem. When I first time ripped the album, I had some weird problems afterwards with the drive (sloppy response, read errors, some cdrom errors in the eventlogs) -> updated the firmware which fixed those problems. Maybe my "No error" problem is related to this.

Still playing with the hardware and EAC...

EDIT2:
Ok, it seems that EAC is now doing what it should. I'm a long time user of the program, first time I ran over something which could have been a bug.
Overreading enabled -> sync error (matching CRC's after the sync error (test & copy mode)), disabled -> no errors, will provide logs if you need.
My mistake here, never checked the drives behaviour after the firmware update. Consider my "problem" as solved. Checking the dBpa (reference version) behaviour later.

Firmware used now: 1.22, previously used: 1.21

This post has been edited by wa11u: Dec 13 2007, 19:27


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greynol
post Dec 13 2007, 19:30
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Seems I was wrong about your drive being able to overread (and I should have looked it up @daefeatures.co.uk!).

Could you run EAC's "Detect read sample offset correction" [Drive Options (F10) > Offset / Speed tab] and tell us the overreading capabilities of your drive?

No logs are necessary unless you're getting a situation where EAC does not report a suspicious position.

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 13 2007, 19:37


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wa11u
post Dec 13 2007, 19:38
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Overreading: None.
Simple as That! biggrin.gif


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greynol
post Dec 13 2007, 19:42
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Yep! biggrin.gif

Thanks wa11u. smile.gif

EDIT: I did a little research on Pioneer models not listed in daefeatures.co.uk and it seems that the DVR-108, DVR-110 and DVR-111 can overread into the lead-out.

This post has been edited by greynol: Dec 13 2007, 20:18


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