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Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Fandango
post Apr 1 2013, 17:02
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Jplay messes up ("tweaks") the process scheduling, shuts down services and and and... who knows what it could have done to your system. Hats off to all of you who dared to install such an instrusive software for conducting tests that you are not even obliged to do, since you aren't the ones with the bold claims.
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phofman
post Apr 1 2013, 17:11
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Modifying the system is not dangerous by itself. But in combination with its closed undocumented nature is what makes it a suspicious black box. But that is to some extent any closed-source software smile.gif
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Apr 1 2013, 17:29
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QUOTE (Wombat @ Apr 1 2013, 10:11) *
I wonder also what we talk about here now.
We know that the recorded samples "3 copy.wav" and "4 copy.wav" when level-matched still sound completely different!


Someone did a listening test?

What I know is that when normalized, their stats are still somewhat different:

Foobar

Left Right
Min Sample Value: -28149 -28981
Max Sample Value: 29490 29491
Peak Amplitude: -.92 dB -.92 dB
Possibly Clipped: 0 0
DC Offset: -.001 0
Minimum RMS Power: -41.01 dB -44.16 dB
Maximum RMS Power: -8.79 dB -8.66 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.09 dB -20.12 dB
Total RMS Power: -17.64 dB -18.58 dB
Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Jplay

Left Right
Min Sample Value: -29490 -27202
Max Sample Value: 26978 29490
Peak Amplitude: -.92 dB -.92 dB
Possibly Clipped: 0 0
DC Offset: 0 0
Minimum RMS Power: -73.37 dB -77.64 dB
Maximum RMS Power: -10.18 dB -10.17 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.58 dB -18.95 dB
Total RMS Power: -17.58 dB -17.93 dB
Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Looking at the FFTs of the two files when normalized, I see a lot of differences. There are differences over wide bands that are on the order of several dB.

QUOTE
These huge differences between these 2 samples you provided can only be caused by hefty processing -> Something on your playback does alter the sound when played back with VLC to a not small degree.
Please try to get your playback right first before making any more speculations. Others already provided some hints how to get it right.



They not both anything like bit-perfect or even bits-close.

Without the file being played, it is hard to say which is more accurate.
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Wombat
post Apr 1 2013, 18:42
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 1 2013, 18:29) *
Someone did a listening test?

Are you seriously asking for some abx log? Just replaygain both files and listen. The voice coming in on second 9 sounds completely different!

QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Apr 1 2013, 18:29) *
Without the file being played, it is hard to say which is more accurate.

It is pointless to judge what is more accurate because we know already by some posts that the captured VLC playback is way to much off. I still don´t see the poster having fixed that playback issue.
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greynol
post Apr 1 2013, 19:01
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We also no nothing about the soundcard that was used to pass optical to the DAC or how the OS and various media players were configured.

In addition, it seems that superior sound will end up being associated with something that isn't bit-perfect. While this is all fine and dandy, Jplay is claiming audible superiority through bit-perfection. If people are being led to believe that audible differences are due to this rather than signal-processing then Jplay truly is a scam.


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db1989
post Apr 1 2013, 19:09
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Jplay will already be a scam even if it doesn’t alter signals on the way out. It doesn’t really matter how much the sellers do or don’t believe their own nonsense: if you’re selling something that runs contrary to any needs, physical facts, or common sense, while shouting about how your product is essential in all of these respects… you’re scamming, in effect. The question of whether this is being done deliberately is another thing I wish I could be a fly-on-the-wall to determine, but it wouldn’t change the end-result that buyers’ funds are being wasted and people are being misled by completely implausible nonsense left, right, and centre.

Maybe I should state that this is my personal opinion and is not valid for use by another umpteen concern-trolls to accuse the site of being Really Nasty. rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by db1989: Apr 1 2013, 19:14
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Nessuno
post Apr 1 2013, 19:26
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QUOTE (pawelq @ Apr 1 2013, 15:37) *
I installed Jplay with an intention of testing it thoroughly, including recording the output via both S/PDIF and analog, and comparing to other players.

Here are some initial observations:
[...]
I think these are pretty worrying signs and I am leaning towards getting this software off my machine instead of doing any serious testing.

Does it need to be installed and/or run with administrative privileges?


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pawelq
post Apr 1 2013, 19:35
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QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 1 2013, 14:26) *
Does it need to be installed and/or run with administrative privileges?




I don't think admin privileges were required to run, but they were probably required to install. I do not remember exactly.


I cannot check because I uninstalled the application and restored my system to an earlier date.


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dhromed
post Apr 1 2013, 20:05
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 13:09) *
I'd really like to make some more accurate tests, but don't have the skills to do so. Can I put a call out to some people on the forum who are experienced in this area to run a quick test with the volume levels of the tracks matched?


I've already pretty much done this by eyeballing the spectra. As I said, what's left is a non-subtle EQ modification with reduced bass and reduced highs.
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Nessuno
post Apr 1 2013, 20:19
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QUOTE (pawelq @ Apr 1 2013, 19:35) *
I don't think admin privileges were required to run, but they were probably required to install. I do not remember exactly.

I ask because it seems to me all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc... are impossible to be performed as normal or even power user and this may also lead to security or stability issues, at least if the PC is not used solely as a music player.
Could someone report the actual executable owner and/or which account JPlay is actually running under, and possibly other data like CPU time, memory usage etc?


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Porcus
post Apr 1 2013, 20:51
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QUOTE (Nessuno @ Apr 1 2013, 20:19) *
I ask because it seems to me all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc... are impossible to be performed as normal or even power user and this may also lead to security or stability issues, at least if the PC is not used solely as a music player.


That fine-tuning is something I could actually wish for ...


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Propheticus
post Apr 1 2013, 21:27
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This thread has been a really amusing read. The amount of twists and turns in Josef's arguments is astounding. Almost every 'foul' that a debater can commit has been made. The blatant attempt to come across as the genuine and sincere bloke that gets burned down (victim role) made me snicker as well. The criticism was mostly that, criticism and (scientific) rigour. Not a personal attack, but he made it look as if it was.

All that most people (on multiple occasions) did was explaining why they thought it was a: doubtful a program like jplay indeed addresses a problem in pc audio (is it claiming to fix a problem that isn't there on modern computers?) and b: when assuming it does, asking if he could provide proof (of acceptable quality) that it actually improved sound quality above the threshold where it become noticeable to a double blind tester.

It's clear to me: SCAM. (personal opinion)
For anyone that has the energy to continue the debate and/or enjoys doing so, this might be a useful read: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheist...bateTheists.htm. I see a lot of parallels in the jplayer 'believers' that came by to support it (what did he pay?) and certain (extremely) religious theists. They show the same logical flaws in reasoning. Making reasoning with them neigh impossible.

This post has been edited by Propheticus: Apr 1 2013, 21:36
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sabrehagen
post Apr 1 2013, 23:18
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QUOTE (Wombat @ Apr 2 2013, 00:11) *
I wonder also what we talk about here now.
We know that the recorded samples "3 copy.wav" and "4 copy.wav" when level-matched still sound completely different!
These huge differences between these 2 samples you provided can only be caused by hefty processing -> Something on your playback does alter the sound when played back with VLC to a not small degree.
Please try to get your playback right first before making any more speculations. Others already provided some hints how to get it right.


There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:

QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Mar 29 2013, 19:47) *
QUOTE (skamp @ Mar 29 2013, 19:10) *
Make a 30 second sample of a song that you like, which shows the differences. Play it first in foobar2000, and record the output. Play it again with jplay, and record the output. Post the two recordings in the uploads forum. Someone competent can then sample align the recordings and volume match them, and then compare them.

I have done exactly this and the two outputs to not match, there is significant difference. I used Audio DiffMaker to do the test. I have also posted in the uploads section: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100156

This is a sound output. Now how do I test the bitstream?


QUOTE (pawelq @ Apr 2 2013, 00:37) *
I installed Jplay with an intention of testing it thoroughly, including recording the output via both S/PDIF and analog, and comparing to other players.

Here are some initial observations:

- the installer required computer restart, pretty unusual for a medi aplayer
- the antivirus had some doubts about the program
- the computer is no longer accessible via remote desktop
- there are signs of heavy processor load (for example, foobar visualisations became choppy when played over JPLAY) which are hidden from the Task Manager (I'll download Process Explorer onto this machine later)'

I think these are pretty worrying signs and I am leaning towards getting this software off my machine instead of doing any serious testing.


To demystify you observations:
1. JPLAY installs itself as a service, and as such, a restart is required. Pretty unusual sophistication for a media player, I would agree.
2. Because the program is small enough to be loaded into CPU cache, it is, and this can appear suspicious to an antivirus program. False positives are a bane of the software development world.
3. I would suggest this is a completely unrelated issue. You are probably looking for connections that aren't there.
4. It is hidden from task manager as it is a service, not a running user-level process. If you are so fond of task manager, take a look in the next tab, called services, and you'll see "JPLAYService". As for the lag, to programs are interfacing via a plugin system. This interface may have its shortcomings, possibly evident through visualisations lagging. I personally noticed the little graphic equaliser next to the progress bar wasn't as smooth. This is probably a foobar-JPLAY compatibility issue. Audio is uncompromised.
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pawelq
post Apr 1 2013, 23:21
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 18:18) *
3. I would suggest this is a completely unrelated issue. You are probably looking for connections that aren't there.



What I can say is that on the same day:

1. I connected to computer A remotely from computer B
2. installed JPlay on A
3. could not connect to A from B anymore
4. could not connect to a from C (this worked previously)
5. uninstalled JPlay from A and restored system to an earlier date (just in case)
6. was able to connect to A from B again.

Does not look unrelated.


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Wombat
post Apr 1 2013, 23:27
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 2 2013, 00:18) *
There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:

Then just replace VLC in my posts with foobar but fix your playback.
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sabrehagen
post Apr 1 2013, 23:31
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QUOTE (pawelq @ Apr 2 2013, 08:21) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 18:18) *
3. I would suggest this is a completely unrelated issue. You are probably looking for connections that aren't there.



What I can say is that on the same day:

1. I connected to computer A remotely from computer B
2. installed JPlay on A
3. could not connect to A from B anymore
4. could not connect to a from C (this worked previously)
5. uninstalled JPlay from A and restored system to an earlier date (just in case)
6. was able to connect to A from B again.

Does not look unrelated.


If something happened to your remote connection configuration after installing JPLAY, then you wound back to a time before JPLAY and before the issues started happening, it doesn't mean JPLAY was the source of that issue.

At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

QUOTE (Wombat @ Apr 2 2013, 08:27) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 2 2013, 00:18) *
There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:

Then just replace VLC in my posts with foobar but fix your playback.


Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?
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db1989
post Apr 1 2013, 23:42
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 23:18) *
To demystify you observations:
1. JPLAY installs itself as a service, and as such, a restart is required. Pretty unusual sophistication for a media player, I would agree.
Please demystify us with an explanation of why this is “sophistication” rather than pointlessness. Actually, not so far away, sophistry is a much better word.

QUOTE
This is probably a foobar-JPLAY compatibility issue.
I would suggest that the issue is not on fb2k’s side because it should not have to make allowances for a pointless front-end that installs itself as an intermediary and puts up a facade of providing better quality when fb2k is already doing everything perfectly well, as can any barely competent player.

QUOTE
Audio is uncompromised.
Indeed it is, regardless of whether or not one performs the redundant additional step of passing it through Jplay and all of its ‘optimisations’!

Until the issue with the blatantly mismatched samples can be resolved and a proper test provided (with its forgone conclusion), this thread might as well revert to its own ‘hibernate mode’.

QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 23:31) *
QUOTE (Wombat @ Apr 2 2013, 08:27) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 2 2013, 00:18) *
There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:
Then just replace VLC in my posts with foobar but fix your playback.
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?
If you say that you believe you are getting the same output from both players tested but at different levels, then you are not getting the same output. It should not be difficult to have both players output the signal unaltered at 0 dB, and again, until the levels are matched thusly, no tests are reliable. I say “should not” with an intrinsic bias towards reasonable and predictable behaviour, which might not be a fair assumption in the case of Jplay.
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Wombat
post Apr 1 2013, 23:43
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 2 2013, 00:31) *
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?

This is becoming silly. We discuss over several pages now some differences that only come from your broken setup. It is not only different levels. When i play back your Pretzel_Logic_Excerpt.wav it sounds completely different as your foobar capture, no matter what i play it back with.

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greynol
post Apr 1 2013, 23:44
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 15:31) *
At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

This is off-topic to the discussion. Either handle this matter through PM or take it up someplace else. Further discussion on this matter will be binned.

QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 15:31) *
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output.

Assuming you are not instructing the player to adjust the gain, any volume change in the bitstream is adulteration. In my book, having the player adjust the playback gain away from unity also constitutes adulteration.

This post has been edited by greynol: Apr 1 2013, 23:48


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sabrehagen
post Apr 2 2013, 00:06
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QUOTE (Wombat @ Apr 2 2013, 08:43) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 2 2013, 00:31) *
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?

This is becoming silly. We discuss over several pages now some differences that only come from your broken setup. It is not only different levels. When i play back your Pretzel_Logic_Excerpt.wav it sounds completely different as your foobar capture, no matter what i play it back with.

I was using a fresh install of foobar, having never used the software in my life before. No DSP, no nothing, just a stock install. I connected the output of my DAC to the line in on my on board sound card and recorded it there. Of course it isn't going to sound exactly the same as what you hear, as each system is unique. This is the result of the digital to analogue conversion process, hence the reason for the number of DACs in the world; there is a difference. This is why for about the *last three pages* I have requested a method to analyse the bitstream. This is the only data that is common to all systems as it is digital.

I don't have a broken setup, those tests were to purely illustrate a difference. I believe you have a flawed understanding of which data needs to be tested.

QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 2 2013, 08:44) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 15:31) *
At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

This is off-topic to the discussion. Either handle this matter through PM or take it up someplace else. Further discussion on this matter will be binned.

QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 15:31) *
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output.

Assuming you are not instructing the player to adjust the gain, any volume change in the bitstream is adulteration. In my book, having the player adjust the playback gain away from unity also constitutes adulteration.


Thank you, the remote desktop issue is nothing more than trivia.
If then, JPLAY's result has a difference in volume, we may never be able to get accurate tests.

I was hoping to get the assistance of some experienced audio testers on this forum to record the bitstream, as I do not have the setup or experience to do so. Until somebody has the requisite interest in this issue, can offer assistance, I will bow out of this discussion as it seems to be going nowhere, and fast.

This post has been edited by sabrehagen: Apr 2 2013, 00:06
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greynol
post Apr 2 2013, 00:14
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 16:06) *
Of course it isn't going to sound exactly the same as what you hear, as each system is unique. This is the result of the digital to analogue conversion process, hence the reason for the number of DACs in the world; there is a difference.

Unless you can prove there is, you can't claim it. We have covered imaginary differences in DAC quality with placebophiles TO DEATH. I see no reason why we should even begin to take this silly detour.

Besides, you are claiming night and day differences and it appears as though you're getting them. Any possible differences in competently performing DACs, assuming they can be demonstrated and verified in a properly conducted double blind test, will be subtle at best.

QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 16:06) *
it seems to be going nowhere, and fast.

If you can't be bothered to attempt to understand what it is that you're testing before thinking you have the smoking gun then yes, this whole charade is pointless.

At a minimum you could have fed-back your samples into their respective players in order to show generational degradation as you were asked.

With a BSCS I would have expected better.

This post has been edited by greynol: Apr 2 2013, 00:19


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sabrehagen
post Apr 2 2013, 00:23
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Digital data is discrete, analogue is constantly varying. If you want to make comparisons without error, discrete data is the way to do it, hence the tests must be done before the digital to analogue conversion.

A BSCS teaches you to use tools. Go to the people who are experienced, seek assistance, save time, have it done properly to save error. You aren't going to put together the bricks and mortar of your own house when you're a property developer.

This post has been edited by db1989: Apr 2 2013, 16:03
Reason for edit: deleting unnecessary full quote
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pawelq
post Apr 2 2013, 01:15
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QUOTE (greynol @ Apr 1 2013, 18:44) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 15:31) *
At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

This is off-topic to the discussion. Either handle this matter through PM or take it up someplace else. Further discussion on this matter will be binned.

Sure, I am not going to waste time arguing why it is not likely to be just a coincidence that a system function that has worked for me for years flawlessly stopped working only during this one hour or so when JPlay was installed in the system.

It's just interesting why Sabrehagen, who paints himself as a JPlay user only, was so much interested in this technicality and so much sure it could not have happened.


QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 1 2013, 19:06) *
I was hoping to get the assistance of some experienced audio testers on this forum to record the bitstream
Well I was going to do it, but my interest in JPlay is not strong enough to overcome my resistance aginst installing a piece of software that messes up my system. Sorry, I do other stuff on my computers, and I need them in working order, including remote desktop.

I must say that I was rather appalled seeing that a 99EUR audio player does not even have its own user interface, and I have to either use this weird "copy from another player" method, or use a good player as JPLAY's frontend, ending up with some functionalities of the good player negatively affected.


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db1989
post Apr 2 2013, 01:27
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QUOTE (pawelq @ Apr 2 2013, 01:15) *
I have to either use this weird "copy from another player" method, or use a good player as JPLAY's frontend, ending up with some functionalities of the good player negatively affected.
And nothing gained! Thus one is expected to pay 99 EUR for the software equivalent of a jar of Brilliant Pebbles or some other totally functionless gimmick to place on or near one’s normal player, fuelling the placebo effect with strong mental cues based upon the need to retroactively justify the purchase.
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greynol
post Apr 2 2013, 01:28
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FWIW, pawelg, I believe you.

It was my attempt to get to the bottom of what software was affecting the bitstream instead of veering off on a tangent about what the software may or may not be doing to the non-sound-related portion of your OS.

This post has been edited by greynol: Apr 2 2013, 01:51


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