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Adding ReplayGain tags kills/moves original tags!
Rowan
post Aug 17 2005, 23:04
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I can't seem to add ReplayGain tags to my mp3s without foobar mutilating my other tags. For example, depending on the options I've chosen (tag to write: ID3v1 only, ID3v1 & V2, etc), instead of simply adding replaygain tags (ID3v2), foobar decides to either:

(a) copy my ID3v2 tags over to my ID3v1 tags (artist, title, etc)
(b) delete my ID3v1 tags (artist, title, etc)

These are things I don't want it to do. All I'm trying to do is ADD ReplayGain tags, and I dont want any of my other tags touched, copied, or moved. Is it possible somehow?

I'm not the only one getting frustrated by this it seems... http://www.misticriver.net/boards/showthre...ed=1#post294203

[ 1st post - sorry if its in the wrong place. ]
[ I'm a lover of foobar, keep up the good work - I love the ORDER BY ARTIST feature in the playlist, which winamp doesnt have]

This post has been edited by Rowan: Aug 17 2005, 23:07
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foosion
post Aug 18 2005, 02:15
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QUOTE (Rowan @ Aug 18 2005, 12:04 AM)
(a) copy my ID3v2 tags over to my ID3v1 tags (artist, title, etc)
(b) delete my ID3v1 tags (artist, title, etc)
*

a) When foobar2000 updates the tags on an MP3 file, it writes all of the tag types you have told it to write, so that the information contained in different tag types is consistent.

b) There's a note about that on the relevant preferences page. See the screenshot below, if you don't know what I'm talking about.


Neither the consistent tagging nor the removal of other tag formats can be disabled.


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Lyx
post Aug 18 2005, 10:17
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Reason why it is handled this way is because fb2k is designed so that you do not need to care about tag-types. The idea is that the user only needs to care about the contents of the metadata, and fb2k automatically cares about tag-types.

Or in other words: Foobar does not support having *different contents* in different tag-types simultaneusly.


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Rowan
post Aug 18 2005, 11:34
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Rather than have foobar helpfully asume it knows what is best for my tags, wouldnt it be better to have an option? Like I say, I'm not asking it to mess with my tags, theres good reason why some of my collection uses ID3v1, some uses ID3v2, ad some use a mixture - I don't want a program to mess them up - especially without asking me first. What other hidden functions does foobar perform when I ask it to perform routine tasks I wonder.. scary!

At the end of the day all I told foobar to do was write ID3v2 replaygain tags, but it seems to have deleted the ID3v1 tags on ALL my 10gigs worth of mp3 collection, and overwritten them with (sometimes incomplete) ID3v2 tags. Crazy. Wheres the undo button?

Is the developers don't see this as an issue, can someone recommend a program which can actually write replaygain tags without doing any other unrequested functions at the same time?

This post has been edited by Rowan: Aug 18 2005, 11:37
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anza
post Aug 18 2005, 12:17
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QUOTE (Rowan @ Aug 18 2005, 12:34 PM)
What other hidden functions does foobar perform when I ask it to perform routine tasks I wonder..
*

It isn't a hidden function. Did you even bother to check the screenshot foosion posted? blink.gif
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Rowan
post Aug 18 2005, 12:56
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You right click, you choose Replaygain scan - theres no warning that as well as doing this, it is also going to butcher the existing tags of your entire collection. Hidden away in the options I should say perhaps.

Surely stripping other tags should be optional, or a seperate command all together?

This post has been edited by Rowan: Aug 18 2005, 16:57
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sithia
post Aug 18 2005, 18:50
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I just found foobar2000 and it actually does the one function I want it to do: write replaygain ID3v2 tags. I run linux and was able to load up 0.8.3 under Wine (the 0.9 beta painfully refuses to install because "win2k is required") and while fb2k does in fact run none of my ID3v2 tags (very standard tags, no custom ones) are recognized and in fact when I process a list of files fb2k successfully removes all my standard ID2v3 tags and leaves my files with *only* the four replaygain tags. And since I don't use APE or ID3v1 tags I couldn't care less if it mutilates them. By all means, remove them. But is it normal for fb2k to remove the standard ID3v2 tags?

Thankfully I am and always will be wary of tagging apps so I run a great many tests on a select handful of files to make sure my many, many, many hours of efforts getting my audio files setup just right are not lost to apps that seemingly do things of their own accord.

Failing a way to make fb2k write the four replaygain tags (and remove NOTHING) I will have to download the mp3gain source and figure out how it's written and add support for applying ID3v2 tags (it only write APE tags) unless someone knows another app that will write ID3v2 replaygain tags.
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Lyx
post Aug 18 2005, 21:59
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QUOTE (Rowan @ Aug 18 2005, 12:34 PM)
Rather than have foobar helpfully asume it knows what is best for my tags, wouldnt it be better to have an option? Like I say, I'm not asking it to mess with my tags, theres good reason why some of my collection uses ID3v1, some uses ID3v2, ad some use a mixture
*

Then you also dont want to use foobar2000. If it would be made an option, then you would come back a few days later (after you have used foobars masstagging-functions, mass-encoding-functions, etc.) and complain why your tags are completely out of sync. There is a reason why foobar does not allow direct access to individual tag-systems: because it would be impossible efficiently do large-scale metadata operations on files, while having to care about tag-systems. In terms of metadata, foobar is about efficiently handling large amounts of files. If you want micromanagement, then foobar is the wrong tool for the task.


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Lyx
post Aug 18 2005, 22:07
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QUOTE (sithia @ Aug 18 2005, 07:50 PM)
I run linux and was able to load up 0.8.3 under Wine (the 0.9 beta painfully refuses to install because "win2k is required") and while fb2k does in fact run none of my ID3v2 tags (very standard tags, no custom ones) are recognized and in fact when I process a list of files fb2k successfully removes all my standard ID2v3 tags and leaves my files with *only* the four replaygain tags. And since I don't use APE or ID3v1 tags I couldn't care less if it mutilates them. By all means, remove them. But is it normal for fb2k to remove the standard ID3v2 tags?
*

Umm, one of those sentences is definatelly too long. I am not sure if i understand you correctly. FB2K should theoretically behave as it says it would behave in the preferences (i.e. if tagging is set to "write id3v1 and id3v2" then according to the posted screenshot it should keep and write id3v1 and v2 - but remove apev2). If there is still something wrong going on, then you may want to search the forums for the keywords "id3v2 unicode system-codepage". It should clear some things up.

BTW: the default behaviour (as well as configurable behaviour) has changed in 0.9. There, "id3v1 and id3v2" is the default, instead of "id3v1 and APEv2". And you can also change some other things there. Sorry to hear that it doesn't launch on your system.

This post has been edited by Lyx: Aug 18 2005, 22:11


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sithia
post Aug 18 2005, 23:14
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QUOTE (Lyx @ Aug 18 2005, 02:07 PM)
I am not sure if i understand you correctly. FB2K should theoretically behave as it says it would behave in the preferences (i.e. if tagging is set to "write id3v1 and id3v2" then according to the posted screenshot it should keep and write id3v1 and v2 - but remove apev2). If there is still something wrong going on, then you may want to search the forums for the keywords "id3v2 unicode system-codepage". It should clear some things up.

I have it set to "ID3v2" but it still ended up removing my ID3v2 tags. Perhaps the problem lies in the Wine emulation. I really don't know. I'll give it a few more tries. If it still doesn't work I'm writing new code for mp3gain.

QUOTE (Lyx @ Aug 18 2005, 02:07 PM)
Umm, one of those sentences is definatelly too long.

That's what I get for not reading over my post one last time before submitting. unsure.gif Sorry for that run-on sentence.
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Lyx
post Aug 19 2005, 00:10
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Hmm, wait a min - i think i may know where the problem is. Fb2k 0.8 does not support "merging" of various tag types. What this means is the following:

1. look if apev2 is present
2. look if id3v2 is present
3. look if id3v1 is present

It will stop with the first tag-type which it finds, use it, write it to the tag-types which are set to "write", and discard everything else. What this means is that if for example you have all your metadata in id3v2 and v1...... BUT some replaygain-info in apev2 but nothing else in apev2, then the following will happen: It will only read the apev2 tags, mirror them to id3v2, and discard everything else.

There have been some discussions about implementing merging of tag-types. Some (including me) were of the opinion that a "simple" merge-mechanism would be desirable - others were of the opinion that its better to have no merging at all than a bad merge-mechanism. I dont know how those discussions turned out.

- Lyx


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saratoga
post Aug 19 2005, 01:23
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QUOTE (sithia @ Aug 18 2005, 10:50 AM)
I just found foobar2000 and it actually does the one function I want it to do: write replaygain ID3v2 tags. I run linux and was able to load up 0.8.3 under Wine (the 0.9 beta painfully refuses to install because "win2k is required") and while fb2k does in fact run none of my ID3v2 tags (very standard tags, no custom ones) are recognized and in fact when I process a list of files fb2k successfully removes all my standard ID2v3 tags and leaves my files with *only* the four replaygain tags. And since I don't use APE or ID3v1 tags I couldn't care less if it mutilates them. By all means, remove them. But is it normal for fb2k to remove the standard ID3v2 tags?

Thankfully I am and always will be wary of tagging apps so I run a great many tests on a select handful of files to make sure my many, many, many hours of efforts getting my audio files setup just right are not lost to apps that seemingly do things of their own accord.

Failing a way to make fb2k write the four replaygain tags (and remove NOTHING) I will have to download the mp3gain source and figure out how it's written and add support for applying ID3v2 tags (it only write APE tags) unless someone knows another app that will write ID3v2 replaygain tags.
*


If you're run mp3gain on your files, you have APEv2 tags. Foobar ignored your ID3v2 tags since it found the APEv2 tags first (in .8 APE > ID3v2 > ID3v1, use .9 if this bothers you).
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sithia
post Aug 19 2005, 04:24
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QUOTE (Lyx @ Aug 18 2005, 04:10 PM)
It will stop with the first tag-type which it finds, use it, write it to the tag-types which are set to "write", and discard everything else. What this means is that if for example you have all your metadata in id3v2 and v1...... BUT some replaygain-info in apev2 but nothing else in apev2, then the following will happen: It will only read the apev2 tags, mirror them to id3v2, and discard everything else.

Thanks for the info. I'll figure a way to remove these APE tags and test it out with some files I know do not have APE.

QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Aug 18 2005, 05:23 PM)
If you're run mp3gain on your files, you have APEv2 tags.  Foobar ignored your ID3v2 tags since it found the APEv2 tags first (in .8 APE > ID3v2 > ID3v1, use .9 if this bothers you).

Can't get 0.9 installed. The installer keeps telling me win2k is required (I'm running 0.8.3 via Wine in linux).
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sithia
post Aug 19 2005, 16:04
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Seems Lyx hit it right. I was able to remove APE tags from a few files and fb2k started to act how I expected it to (adding replaygain to ID3v2 without removing existing tags). I'll write up some way to remove the existing APE tags and keep using fb2k to apply the replaygain tags. I never actually wanted to work out the code to add ID3v2 tags using mp3gain. smile.gif

Thanks Lyx.
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rasher
post Aug 30 2005, 16:54
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QUOTE (foosion @ Aug 18 2005, 03:15 AM)
Neither the consistent tagging nor the removal of other tag formats can be disabled.
*
This makes baby Jesus cry.
QUOTE (Lyx @ Aug 18 2005, 11:17 AM)
Or in other words: Foobar does not support having *different contents* in different tag-types simultaneusly.
*
It doesn't have to - it should just leave them alone if I'm not asking it to edit them. I'm simply adding tags, not editing any. This concept seems to be lost on fb2k.
QUOTE (anza @ Aug 18 2005, 01:17 PM)
QUOTE (Rowan @ Aug 18 2005, 12:34 PM)
What other hidden functions does foobar perform when I ask it to perform routine tasks I wonder..
*
It isn't a hidden function. Did you even bother to check the screenshot foosion posted? blink.gif
*
Well, that screenshots say that "Other supported file types will be stripped from file". It says nothing about destructively overwriting ID3v1 tags with the contents of ID3v2.
QUOTE (Lyx @ Aug 18 2005, 10:59 PM)
There is a reason why foobar does not allow direct access to individual tag-systems: because it would be impossible efficiently do large-scale metadata operations on files, while having to care about tag-systems. In terms of metadata, foobar is about efficiently handling large amounts of files. If you want micromanagement, then foobar is the wrong tool for the task.
*
I see that this is true if you're actually modifying tags, but simply adding ReplayGain tags should never modify any other tags. Why would it? I'm not asking it to "retag my files as you see fit please and add ReplayGain while you're add it". I'm asking it to add ReplayGain tags - nothing else. I don't want Foobar to do any micromanagement - I'll do that in other ways thankyouverymuch. All I'd want it to do is to add ReplayGain tags to my entire collection - but it seems insistant on modifying my tags as it goes along, for no particular reason other than it feels like I shouldn't have differing tags.

I guess all this means that you cannot make Foobar only add ReplayGain tags as the plugin promises to do. It insists on taking a dump all over your tags no matter what you do to prevent it.

Modifying mp3gain to add ID3v2 tags would appear to be the way to go. Sadly my coding skills are not up to that task, so I guess I'll just have to live without the joys of ReplayGain.

crying.gif


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saratoga
post Aug 30 2005, 19:25
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QUOTE
Well, that screenshots say that "Other supported file types will be stripped from file". It says nothing about destructively overwriting ID3v1 tags with the contents of ID3v2.


You set it to write ID3v1 tags. Are you really surprised that it wrote them? I'm not sure how it could be made more clear.

QUOTE
I see that this is true if you're actually modifying tags, but simply adding ReplayGain tags should never modify any other tags. Why would it? I'm not asking it to "retag my files as you see fit please and add ReplayGain while you're add it". I'm asking it to add ReplayGain tags - nothing else. I don't want Foobar to do any micromanagement - I'll do that in other ways thankyouverymuch. All I'd want it to do is to add ReplayGain tags to my entire collection - but it seems insistant on modifying my tags as it goes along, for no particular reason other than it feels like I shouldn't have differing tags.


Because storing a copy of alternative sets of tags for a file is retarded. The only alternative, looking through each tag to see if a field is present before writing, is equally stupid since that would cause different tags to inadvertantly accumulate whenever you switched tag writing modes, or even if you tried to update files written by software that wrote a different tag format.

QUOTE
I guess all this means that you cannot make Foobar only add ReplayGain tags as the plugin promises to do. It insists on taking a dump all over your tags no matter what you do to prevent it.


You're welcome to disable tag updates you know.

QUOTE
Modifying mp3gain to add ID3v2 tags would appear to be the way to go. Sadly my coding skills are not up to that task, so I guess I'll just have to live without the joys of ReplayGain.


Is there some reason you want to have conflicting tag types? Its going to cause you a lot of effort for no gain. If so, you're welcome to simply disable tag writing in foobar and micromange your individual tags however you like.
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rasher
post Aug 30 2005, 21:27
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QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Aug 30 2005, 08:25 PM)
QUOTE
Well, that screenshots say that "Other supported file types will be stripped from file". It says nothing about destructively overwriting ID3v1 tags with the contents of ID3v2.
You set it to write ID3v1 tags. Are you really surprised that it wrote them? I'm not sure how it could be made more clear.
I told it to add ReplayGain frames in the firm belief that that was what it'd do. It didn't - it did a whole lot more, and I don't understand why an operation as simple as adding a frame would require changing and overwriting a completely unrelated tag.
QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Aug 30 2005, 08:25 PM)
QUOTE
I see that this is true if you're actually modifying tags, but simply adding ReplayGain tags should never modify any other tags. Why would it? I'm not asking it to "retag my files as you see fit please and add ReplayGain while you're add it". I'm asking it to add ReplayGain tags - nothing else. I don't want Foobar to do any micromanagement - I'll do that in other ways thankyouverymuch. All I'd want it to do is to add ReplayGain tags to my entire collection - but it seems insistant on modifying my tags as it goes along, for no particular reason other than it feels like I shouldn't have differing tags.
Because storing a copy of alternative sets of tags for a file is retarded. The only alternative, looking through each tag to see if a field is present before writing, is equally stupid since that would cause different tags to inadvertantly accumulate whenever you switched tag writing modes, or even if you tried to update files written by software that wrote a different tag format.
Why would it even write the ID3v1 tag at all? There's absolutely no reason to touch it since it DOES NOT AND CANNOT support ReplayGain in any way. (I guess you could do some hackery in the comment field, but that'd be extraordinarily ugly, and that's not the case anyway).
QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Aug 30 2005, 08:25 PM)
QUOTE
I guess all this means that you cannot make Foobar only add ReplayGain tags as the plugin promises to do. It insists on taking a dump all over your tags no matter what you do to prevent it.
You're welcome to disable tag updates you know.
I'd be happy to, if the ReplayGain plugin would ONLY add the ID3v2 frame that holds ReplayGain information. I don't see how this could be any easier.
QUOTE (Mike Giacomelli @ Aug 30 2005, 08:25 PM)
QUOTE
Modifying mp3gain to add ID3v2 tags would appear to be the way to go. Sadly my coding skills are not up to that task, so I guess I'll just have to live without the joys of ReplayGain.
Is there some reason you want to have conflicting tag types? Its going to cause you a lot of effort for no gain. If so, you're welcome to simply disable tag writing in foobar and micromange your individual tags however you like.
*
Damn right there is. I don't want tags like "Such and such song [craptastic remix]" to show up as "Such and such song [craptastic" in players that don't support
ID3v2 or picks ID3v1 by default. Anyway, this is hardly relevant. Foobar is doing destructive things to my mp3s, for an operation where it SHOULDNT HAVE TO TOUCH THE DAMN TAGS AT ALL other than adding a single id3v2 frame.

I seem to detect that "micromanage" is an insult here, but is there anything wrong in thinking that when I set a tag, I don't want Foobar to overwrite it, unless I explicitly tell it to "meddle around with my tags, please?"?

Really, why are the tags (specifically the ID3v1 tag) rewritten just because a single Frame is to be added to the ID3v2 tag. The v1 tag doesn't even enter into it for chrissakes!

I'd gladly have accepted if unknown X, Y and Z frames were thrown out of v2 tags (don't know if they are) or even if some of the more outlandish tags. That'd be perfectly understandable. But unless I chose the "SYNC MY TAGS PLEASE" option, please don't unless there's a good reason (which there isn't)!

Edit:
X, Y and Z frames as in experimental frames as per id3v2.4.0-structure.txt section 4.
More edit:
I had used "tag" somewhat confusingly some places where I meant frame.

This post has been edited by rasher: Aug 30 2005, 21:31


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picmixer
post Aug 30 2005, 21:42
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@rasher:

Your tagging needs do not cohere with the current fb2k tagging philosopy. Please go and use another player.
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rasher
post Aug 30 2005, 21:56
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QUOTE (picmixer @ Aug 30 2005, 10:42 PM)
@rasher:

Your tagging needs do not cohere with the current fb2k tagging philosopy. Please go and use another player.
*
My tagging needs do not enter into it, so put your attitude somewhere else. I'm fully aware of the differing philosophy, and I guess that's part of the reason why I'm not using Foobar for my daily use.

There's still absolutely no reason to rewrite any tags just because I run ReplayGain on the file.

I dare you to explain why this is necessary. Go on.

Edit:
I'm not really complaining about Foobar wanting to keep tags the same. I'm complaining about the fact that it choses to enforce this policy in a totally unrelated place where it's absolutely unnecessary and uncalled for.

This post has been edited by rasher: Aug 30 2005, 21:58


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picmixer
post Aug 30 2005, 22:00
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You current posting style is not compatible with this forum either. So please go use another forum as well.
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foosion
post Aug 30 2005, 22:54
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foobar2000 is a general audio player with metadata handling that abstracts from the actual audio and tag format. That's why you will find a generic tag editor, but no ID3v2, ID3v1 or APEv2 (just to mention tag types used with MP3 files) tag editor in it. It has never been an ID3-centric MP3 player like so many others. It did not even have support for ID3v2 at all for a long time.

QUOTE (rasher)
I told it to add ReplayGain frames in the firm belief that that was what it'd do.
I've never seen an "Add ReplayGain frames" command in foobar2000. I'd say have been fooled by your assumptions.

QUOTE (rasher)
It didn't - it did a whole lot more, and I don't understand why an operation as simple as adding a frame would require changing and overwriting a completely unrelated tag.
It is not required as a part of the technical process of updating the ID3v2 tag of an MP3 file. foobar2000 does it anyway, because its creator and most people who use it prefer the player to keep information in all tag types on a given file consistent automatically. Regarding the "most people", this thread is the first time that I see people complaining about that.

As picmixer pointed out, if foobar2000 does not do the job the way you want, just use another tool. He might have come across as a little harsh, but so have you.

QUOTE
[ URL=http://whydoesthisnotwork.com ]It just doesn't![ /URL ]
Because BBCode is intentionally disabled in signatures on HydrogenAudio. See Site Related Discussion, if you feel like discussing that.


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rasher
post Aug 30 2005, 23:14
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QUOTE (foosion @ Aug 30 2005, 11:54 PM)
foobar2000 is a general audio player with metadata handling that abstracts from the actual audio and tag format. That's why you will find a generic tag editor, but no ID3v2, ID3v1 or APEv2 (just to mention tag types used with MP3 files) tag editor in it. It has never been an ID3-centric MP3 player like so many others. It did not even have support for ID3v2 at all for a long time.
QUOTE (rasher)
I told it to add ReplayGain frames in the firm belief that that was what it'd do.
I've never seen an "Add ReplayGain frames" command in foobar2000. I'd say have been fooled by your assumptions.
Okay, the entry is "Scan per-file track-gain". Still gives the impression that it's going to, you know, scan per-file track-gain, not synchronize my tags.
QUOTE (foosion @ Aug 30 2005, 11:54 PM)
QUOTE (rasher)
It didn't - it did a whole lot more, and I don't understand why an operation as simple as adding a frame would require changing and overwriting a completely unrelated tag.
It is not required as a part of the technical process of updating the ID3v2 tag of an MP3 file. foobar2000 does it anyway, because its creator and most people who use it prefer the player to keep information in all tag types on a given file consistent automatically. Regarding the "most people", this thread is the first time that I see people complaining about that.

As picmixer pointed out, if foobar2000 does not do the job the way you want, just use another tool. He might have come across as a little harsh, but so have you.
I'm all for keeping tags synchronised if people want it - I don't have an issue with presenting metadata in an abstracted way. I just don't see why this policy is being enforced in this case, where it's absolutely unnecessary.

When people are editing tags, removing, updating - by all means synchronize the tag types if that's your thing - I wouldn't like it, but that is, as you say, totally irrelevant since I'm not really the intended user of this.

I would love to use another tool, but it seems that foobar is the only one that will write Replaygain info to ID3v2 tags. If there's another tool (that'll just add the TXXX frames) that I haven't found yet, I'd be happy to know.
QUOTE (foosion @ Aug 30 2005, 11:54 PM)
QUOTE
[ URL=http://whydoesthisnotwork.com ]It just doesn't![ /URL ]
Because BBCode is intentionally disabled in signatures on HydrogenAudio. See Site Related Discussion, if you feel like discussing that.
*
I don't, but thanks for the pointer - did make me wonder, but I figured it was something like this.


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http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/JonasHaeggqvist
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GHammer
post Sep 3 2005, 05:31
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Why not just re-run mp3gain and remove the tags?
I use mp3gain but do not let it use APE tagging because APE tagging is not compatible with many MP3 players.

I have no problems with then using foobar's replay gain. Writes into the ID3V2 tags just fine.

Seems a pretty simple solution.
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R2D2
post Sep 7 2005, 07:05
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Why would you wan't apev2 tags anyway?
Just do as GHammer said, remove the mp3gain-apev2-tags.
If I understood correctly, the only apev2-tags are the mp3-gain ones, if you have replaygain, you don't need mp3gain.
Set it to write id3v2+id3v1, that should be enough.
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skywalka
post Dec 22 2007, 13:00
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I was thinnking of trying foobar. The Replay Gain functionality is very appealing to me. I thought I'd do a search before I tried it out & I'm very glad I did.

This thread is a couple years old so I was wondering if writing Replay Gain values to media still interferes with unrelated tag fields.
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