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Topic: Footers or risers (Read 7242 times) previous topic - next topic
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Footers or risers

Do isolation products work?

I read this :

http://www.boston-audio.com/tuneblocks.htm

Was thinking of ordering for my equipment to ensure proper isolation and no vibrations were affecting the components.

Footers or risers

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Do isolation products work?

I read this :

http://www.boston-audio.com/tuneblocks.htm

Was thinking of ordering for my equipment to ensure proper isolation and no vibrations were affecting the components.



""TuneBlocks with CD/DVD/SACD players, DACs, preamps, amps... " ???

Snake oil!

I've done technical tests on the effect of vibration on that kind of gear, and it is way below audibility.

Footers or risers

Reply #2 –
Seems like familiar audiwoo claims:
Quote
You'll notice reduced transient smearing and increased resolution through the reduction of the components' noise floor. TuneBlocks also improve localization of instruments and create a wider and deeper sound stage.

Mechanical noise entering through the mechanical system of the tonearm cartridge can be a real thing.

Footers or risers

Reply #3 –
Quote from: rick.hughes on
Seems like familiar audiwoo claims:
Quote
You'll notice reduced transient smearing and increased resolution through the reduction of the components' noise floor. TuneBlocks also improve localization of instruments and create a wider and deeper sound stage.

Mechanical noise entering through the mechanical system of the tonearm cartridge can be a real thing.



However, does this product have a Snowball's Chance In San Diego of providing that benefit?

"Each block is machined from a billet of high purity carbon graphite (not molded carbon fiber) and contain between one and seven cubic inches of carbon, depending on the model. Once shaped, the blocks are finished using our proprietary sealant applied with an automotive-quality spray finishing system. The stationary bearing is used as a coupler between the component and the carbon block. This concentrates the weight of the component into a small area, allowing vibrations to be more efficiently drained into the carbon block. Equipment does not wobble on the bearing like other designs."

Please tell me how!

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Reply #4 –
Forgot to scroll down to the prices

Quote
At $299/set including tungsten carbide bearings, our flagship "Special Edition"


I've always found old bicycle innertubes to be pretty useful in various applications.

Footers or risers

Reply #5 –
But isn't it desirable to reduce mechanical vibrations? Will it not reduce the noise floor of the equipment?

Footers or risers

Reply #9 –
More imaginary solutions for imaginary problems....

Quote
Was thinking of ordering for my equipment to ensure proper isolation and no vibrations were affecting the components.
Bang on your components or jump up & down on the floor to see if mechanical vibrations cause noise in your speakers.

That can happen if you have vacuum tubes.  But, it usually takes a rather strong shock...  And special/different feet are unlikely to help.

Of course turntables are sensitive to this kind of thing.  I've heard thumping through a turntable when walking across a wood floor.  I've heard of  getting feedback through a turntable (perhaps with the turntable sitting on top of a speaker) but I don't remember ever hearing that myself (and now I only use a turntable  to very-occasionally digitize records, not for listening).  But, turntable manufacturer's should have already optimized the support & isolation system.  You may be able to improve turntable isolation with a heavy granite block, or other isolation from the building structure.  I'd be surprised if special feet would help and they might even make things worse by changing the resonant frequency.  Again if different feet improve performance, the turntable manufacturer should be doing it already.

Speakers (woofers) can transmit vibrations into the floor,  or into walls if you have bookshelf or wall-mounted speakers, but again if you have a particular problem I'd look for a particular/custom solution which usually requires analysis & experimentation rather than some random off-the-shelf replacement feet.    Again something like a heavy granite block, or maybe hanging the speakers by bungee cords will probably do a better job of isolation.

Footers or risers

Reply #10 –
Rich, have you considered cable elevators? I've read on the Internet that they also address vibration issues and are sonically beneficial.

Is your equipment still in a standard rack? Have you considered upgrading to an audiophile grade rack? I read that they also serve to isolate your equipment from undesired vibrations. The prices might deter you at the beginning, but the claimed benefits are substantial.

Then there's the whole EM issue I've read quite a lot about... but I guess that's for a different post. So many topics still to cover!

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Reply #11 –
Years ago in my tweakier audiophile youth, I worked in a shop which sold a ton of footers. Nearly everyone "heard" a difference. But would it have stood up to a proper ABX test? Hmm  But this was more like $15-20/set, not $300.

I solved the problem of overly-microphonic turntables and tube electronics by replacing them with digital audio and opamps.

Footers or risers

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Rich B on
But isn't it desirable to reduce mechanical vibrations?


In general the first motivation to reduce vibration relates to reliability and life of the equipment. You can definitely shake equipment apart, but the likelihood of doing so in the indirect sound field of a home audio system is generally small, other than the turntable.

The well-recognized means for isolating turntables and similar devices from air and structural-borne vibrations are well-known and involve other means.

Quote
Will it not reduce the noise floor of the equipment?


In general, no. In engineering you identify the largest sources and deal with them first.

The biggest source of noise in modern audio gear is the fact that it doesn't operate at absolute zero or even close to it.

However, other than vinyl and analog tape, noise isn't usually an audible problem with most people's audio system. And most of the noise that is there, usually comes in with the pre-recorded media or the environment.

Skill testing question. How much does the volume control setting change the noise you hear from your audio system when there is no music playing?  Back in the day, the background noise from the LP media and related electronics, as well as the background noise from the analog tape were often audible.

Even when tubes were all we had, it was unusual for vibration pickup by the tubes to be an audible problem. If it was, the tube was "microphonic" and replacement would usually greatly improve the situation. If you went through the gear with a normal volume setting, plinging most of the tubes had no audible effect.

The microphonic sensitivity of most SS active components and passive components is very, very, very small. Placebophlies will damp chassis and power transformers, but that's because they eschew Science.

Footers or risers

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Rich B on
But isn't it desirable to reduce mechanical vibrations?


In general the first motivation to reduce vibration relates to reliability and life of the equipment. You can definitely shake equipment apart, but the likelihood of doing so in the indirect sound field of a home audio system is generally small, other than the turntable.

The well-recognized means for isolating turntables and similar devices from air and structural-borne vibrations are well-known and involve other means.

Quote
Will it not reduce the noise floor of the equipment?


In general, no. In engineering you identify the largest sources and deal with them first.

The biggest source of noise in modern audio gear is the fact that it doesn't operate at absolute zero or even close to it.

However, other than vinyl and analog tape, noise isn't usually an audible problem with most people's audio system. And most of the noise that is there, usually comes in with the pre-recorded media or the environment.

Skill testing question. How much does the volume control setting change the noise you hear from your audio system when there is no music playing?  Back in the day, the background noise from the LP media and related electronics, as well as the background noise from the analog tape were often audible.

Even when tubes were all we had, it was unusual for vibration pickup by the tubes to be an audible problem. If it was, the tube was "microphonic" and replacement would usually greatly improve the situation. If you went through the gear with a normal volume setting, plinging most of the tubes had no audible effect.

The microphonic sensitivity of most SS active components and passive components is very, very, very small. Placebophlies will damp chassis and power transformers, but that's because they eschew Science.


Well they must be doing something.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equi...otuneblocks.htm

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/tuneblock.htm

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bostona...2/graphite.html

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?r...neblocks-Tweak-

They can't all be delusional, lying, dishonest.

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Reply #14 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Well they must be doing something.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equi...otuneblocks.htm

They can't all be delusional, lying, dishonest.

If you are so inclined please buy all of them, do some double blind tests and post some reviews. Thank you very much.

I am highly interested in the term "Inner Resolution" in your first link. How about outer resolution? Also, "Attack" and "Decay" are usually related to "sustain" and release", please include them in your review as well.

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Reply #15 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Well they must be doing something.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equi...otuneblocks.htm

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/tuneblock.htm

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bostona...2/graphite.html

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?r...neblocks-Tweak-

They can't all be delusional, lying, dishonest.


They can all be placebophile web sites.

Name one that uses measurements + established psychoacoustic thresholds or proper listening tests to evaluate gear.

Do any have the equivalent of TOS8 in their standards for their publications?

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Reply #16 –
Quote from: Rich B on
...
They can't all be delusional, lying, dishonest.

Well, they could be, but it is not necessary to assume so to doubt the truth of their claims. Perhaps they are all sanely and honestly mistaken.

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Reply #17 –
Quote from: http://www.boston-audio.com/order.html link=msg=0 date=
Boston Audio Design is on hiatus. The current generation of products has been retired.

A sad development, for sure. Fortunately for Rich, there are other spending opportunities, which he will soon bring to our attention.

Footers or risers

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: greynol on
Buy some and tell us how they improved your sound.


I just might. Thanks for the suggestion.

Make sure you get the SE ones, after all they have cryogenically treated bearings - that surely has to make them superior? :-P

By the way, every linked review in the other post contains nothing beyond audiphool fluff about increased resolution, lifting haze, tighter bass and so on. Mechanical feedback can be an issue with turntables but my experience suggests that optical playback systems "just work" until things get so bad they can't track, then the whole thing just collapses into a stuttering mess.

Footers or risers

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Gecko on
Quote from: http://www.boston-audio.com/order.html link=msg=0 date=
Boston Audio Design is on hiatus. The current generation of products has been retired.

A sad development, for sure. Fortunately for Rich, there are other spending opportunities, which he will soon bring to our attention.

Magic pebbles anyone? Or how about quantum dots...

Footers or risers

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The biggest source of noise in modern audio gear is the fact that it doesn't operate at absolute zero or even close to it.


 

I'm now going to start sketching out my CryogenAudio range of sealed, liquid-gas-cooled equipment racks. It'll sell like hot (oh no, I mean cold) cakes.

Not being an engineer, I don't have a clue where to even start, so if anyone jumps in and runs with the idea, I won't be upset.

Recently, I saw a video of an Audioclub meet in which an audiophile proudly claims that his rack is probably earthquake-proof --- but he never thought of this!

Quote from: Rich B on
They can't all be delusional, lying, dishonest.


Hey ho... at least you are making is laugh this time. Very funny thread, Thanks,
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

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Reply #22 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
I'm now going to start sketching out my CryogenAudio range of sealed, liquid-gas-cooled equipment racks.

Cryogenaudio - sounds great with hydrogenaudio ;-)
Better you reserve the domain name cryogenaud.io now before someone does.

Footers or risers

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The biggest source of noise in modern audio gear is the fact that it doesn't operate at absolute zero or even close to it.



I'm now going to start sketching out my CryogenAudio range of sealed, liquid-gas-cooled equipment racks. It'll sell like hot (oh no, I mean cold) cakes.

Not being an engineer, I don't have a clue where to even start, so if anyone jumps in and runs with the idea, I won't be upset.


One problem is that many SS devices loose performance when they become cold. For example I've seen SS gear fail to operate at all when cold soaked @ -40 degrees F.  The current gain in bipolar transistors can decrease significantly at that temperature or below.

Electrical noise voltage is roughly inversely proportional to the square root of absolute temperature: Wikipedia Article About Common Thermal Noise  so -40 degrees F is barely enough to make a measurable improvement.

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Reply #24 –
Quote from: Rich B on
They can't all be delusional, lying, dishonest.


You do know not everything on the internet is true right? Just because somebody put a web page up doesn't make it true.

Found any articles published in recognised scientific journals? No? Thought not.

You go right ahead and pay your money and stop wasting time asking us.