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Portable Mpc Player, How big interest is there?
ErikS
post Sep 24 2002, 17:29
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To integerize mppdec so that it can be run on PDA is probably not an impossible task. But considering the very limited space available on memorycards I wonder how many would be interested in such thing...

Also, how much lower precision would be tolerated from an integer decoder?


Personally, if there was such a beast I would buy a PDA instead of a dedicated mp3 player (I don't own any at the moment). Most of my music collection is already in mpc and then I would not need to transcode it - just copy straight to the memory card. Also I could accept quite a lot lower precision. Probably the ambient noise and the soundquality of the PDA would make the least significant 4-5 bits or so unecessary.

What is your opinion?
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AgentMil
post Sep 24 2002, 17:34
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I would love it, but almost everyone uses MPC for high bitrate encoding so those memory cards will fill up very quick!

But I am in for a MPC portable player in either form standalone or a PDA one. But need to reduce the bitrate and right now IMHO Vorbis is the champion in the low bitrate area biggrin.gif.


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auldyin
post Sep 24 2002, 18:22
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Me too.........I'd really love a portable MPC player.

PS
Whats PDA?

auldyin
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JEN
post Sep 24 2002, 18:39
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Even if such a player was released, I doubt if it would have hardware powerful enough to output the full quality of an mpc file. They would probably sound like portable mp3 files.

If companies do make portable mpc files, which do output mpc at full quality, they will probably make a big dent in your bank account!
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CiTay
post Sep 24 2002, 18:59
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QUOTE (auldyin @ Sep 24 2002 - 07:22 PM)
Whats PDA?

Personal Digital Assistant:

wink.gif
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ErikS
post Sep 24 2002, 19:01
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QUOTE (auldyin @ Sep 24 2002 - 06:22 PM)
PS
Whats PDA?

Oh, sorry. PDA means Portable Digital Assistant, or something like that. Handheld computer is another term for them. Palm is the company that first became famous for their PDA:s, but now a wide range of companies produce them.

They usually come with a D/A converter and headphone plug with a quality comparable to many portable music players.

ahh... Citay was faster
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RadioactiveMan
post Sep 24 2002, 19:18
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@jenny Hardware power needed to for decoding a mpc-file is much lower than for a mp3.
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JEN
post Sep 24 2002, 19:27
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QUOTE (RadioactiveMan @ Sep 24 2002 - 07:18 PM)
@jenny Hardware power needed to for decoding a mpc-file is much lower than for a mp3.

What I meant was, will the hardware be able to output the full quality of an mpc file. Its sound processor might not be able to output the full quality of an mpc file and the headphones might not be able to output the full quality of an mpc file.

Even on a PC how many people will go out and buy the best sound card and the best speakers to get the the full benefits of an mpc file.

Which brings me back to my original point. Portable mpc players will probably cost a lot if they try to use the best possible sound processor and the best possible headphones just so you can have the full benefits of an mpc file

Its just a thought
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Continuum
post Sep 24 2002, 19:33
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What about CD-based players? MPC --standard files would be smaller than Lame APS (which I currently use) and a lot better. MPC quality is quite comparable even at low bitrates as 128 kbit to Ogg and Co.

QUOTE
PDA means Portable Digital Assistant
QUOTE
Personal Digital Assistant

I'll just say PCMCIA - people can't memorize computer industry's abbreviations (or was it acronyms? wink.gif )
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SNYder
post Sep 24 2002, 19:57
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man. mpc portable devices would be amazing! (w00t)

I would piss myself if a made mpc software for Pocket PC's and PDA's.
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KikeG
post Sep 24 2002, 20:30
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Aren't there floating point DSP's around? I'd say yes, they are used on some professional audio devices, but I don't know if they are very expensive or what.
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auldyin
post Sep 24 2002, 20:33
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Sorry lads......but WTFIAFPDSP?

auldyin
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Continuum
post Sep 24 2002, 20:43
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digital signal processor?
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Pio2001
post Sep 25 2002, 12:31
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He means "What The Fuck Is A Floating Point Digital Sound Processor ?"
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user
post Sep 26 2002, 21:42
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portable device for mpc would be cool, necessary, to listen to mpc in car etc.

For living room, party room it is no problem.
I myself will buy or more exactly will build up a PC specialized to mpc (and some old mp3's) for music HiFi and to video, divX, SVCD and so on.

This HiFi-PC will be not expensive. Of course a good soundcard, but the soundcard will have only priority: true digital out, without changing bitstream.

For video out I will not take the latest and expensive nVidea Geforce 4......
ATI, Matrox are better for TVout......
A DVD/CD drive, "relative small" HD, small or old screen, if you don't want to use the TV, that's it.


With video it's the same like audio:
Best formats are not playable on normal hardware players (DVD, CD).
Best formats are mpc and divX and related, of course.
The old fashioned ones, mp3 and SVCD, produce really very well quality so far, but you need a lot of space, for discs................


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Xenno
post Sep 26 2002, 22:51
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I can understand the love for a particular format. But give xiph (and others) a little time to fine tune Ogg and you won't need MPC. Ogg is THE successor to MP3, MP+ and all the variants.

I know...... no one wants to re-encode a big library.

Xenno


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Dibrom
post Sep 27 2002, 00:44
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I think it might be possible to get the current mppdec to work on portable devices already. Has anyone tried compiling it with soft floating point support or anything like that?

I've been meaning to try this on my zaurus for some time. Since mpc already requires such low processor power to decode already, it still might be fast enough to do this in realtime even when using soft floats on, say, a 206mhz strongarm like most PDA's have these days.
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Dibrom
post Sep 27 2002, 00:53
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QUOTE (Xenno @ Sep 26 2002 - 02:51 PM)
Ogg is THE successor to MP3, MP+ and all the variants.

lol... successor to MPC?

I don't know about that, I mean it's not like MPC is outdated or something.

Not to start a flame war either, but I'm not so sure that Vorbis will ever quite beat MPC at it's own game. Possible technical issues aside, Vorbis (as in the community and developers) just doesn't seem to be focused enough on mid to high bitrate encoding and transparency. This is all MPC focuses on. This gives it quite an advantage in that area. Right now, AFAIK, there's really nobody even focusing on this area in Vorbis (I'm under the impression that probably 90% of Vorbis users already think it's "good enough"). I know a lot of people are going to look at this in the future (Garf being one of them), but it hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, MPC continues to improve in this regard...

I really like Vorbis as a format, and I do think it has a lot of potential, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions about things which it may or may not be able to do in the future.

I'll believe it when I hear it wink.gif
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Xenno
post Sep 27 2002, 02:16
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>>lol... successor to MPC?

Well, yes. Simply being that Ogg has the best chance for universal adoption and crushing the demon known as MP3 (which I think is still a good format). All other lossy formats will fulfill more or less a niche role. Technical issues? What technical issues? There is nothing preventing Ogg from being as good or better than MPC at all levels, other than time spent tuning. I'm really not slamming other formats. I just think the potential is there to be all things to all people.

No, MPC is not outdated.

PS: If high bitrate tuning is not in the cards, then power to MPC. If there IS technical reasons Ogg can't be as good as MPC, I would sure like to hear it.

Xenno


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floyd
post Sep 27 2002, 02:41
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QUOTE (Xenno @ Sep 27 2002 - 01:16 AM)
PS: If high bitrate tuning is not in the cards, then power to MPC. If there IS technical reasons Ogg can't be as good as MPC, I would sure like to hear it.

There aren't any strong technical reasons AFAIK.

But Dibrom's point, as I understand, was that the community around Vorbis doesn't seem to have much of a desire to compete with MPC at high bitrates, and much of the community (certainly the slashdot crowd) doesn't even acknowledge a deficiency in high-bitrate performance. I would have to agree, though I'd welcome being proven wrong by the next version of Vorbis.
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Xenno
post Sep 27 2002, 04:13
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Well, really all I want is support on the portable/car deck/LAN device front. Be it Ogg or MPC or both (along with FLAC/APE) B). I just prefer open standard stuff (Ogg/FLAC/Mozilla) although I'm on W2k rolleyes.gif (it runs SOOO good) and run Moz/IE6 interchangeably.

It amazes the hell out of me that any of these formats sound so good when so much data is removed.

Xenno


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Alex
post Sep 27 2002, 04:20
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Is that because Ogg will compete with MPC at lower bitrates?

sorry couldnt resist
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Artemis3
post Sep 27 2002, 05:14
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Yes, unfortunately, as i understand, vorbis fails because of pre-echo. Everything else can be corrected, but that last issue will remain, at least until a strong change comes (like maybe the use of wavelets in a future v2.0 revision).

MusePaCk seems to be the only one that can cure it all. Supposedly Advanced Audio Coding should too, but it lacks tuning...

But yes, Ogg Vorbis is a strong improvement from MPeg audio layer 3


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jcoalson
post Sep 27 2002, 07:30
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QUOTE (Xenno @ Sep 26 2002 - 10:13 PM)
Well, really all I want is support on the portable/car deck/LAN device front. Be it Ogg or MPC or both (along with FLAC/APE) B). I just prefer open standard stuff (Ogg/FLAC/Mozilla) although I'm on W2k rolleyes.gif (it runs SOOO good) and run Moz/IE6 interchangeably.

For your car, PhatBox (aka Kenwood MusicKeg) plays FLAC now and I believe there is also alpha firmware for Vorbis.

For your home LAN, pick up a RioReceiver on ebay and download the RioPlay client. It plays FLAC and Vorbis now and it's a cool little box. (Interesting note, the ebay price seems to have gone up since RioPlay added FLAC and Vorbis, about 10-20%, but could be coincidince.) There is also an open-source server called JReceiver that is very nice.

For a portable, you'll have to wait a little longer. There's noise about iRiver possibly adding Vorbis support. FLAC only makes sense really in an HD based system that can double as a generic drive.

Josh
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JEN
post Sep 27 2002, 15:45
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Phillips exp431 is supposed to be upgradable to future codecs by burning the data onto an 8cm cd and playing it.

It cant be that difficult to modify the codec so it can upgrade the portable player! Can it?
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