IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Hydrogenaudio Forum Rules

- No Warez. This includes warez links, cracks and/or requests for help in getting illegal software or copyrighted music tracks!


- No Spamming or Trolling on the boards, this includes useless posts, trying to only increase post count or trying to deliberately create a flame war.


- No Hateful or Disrespectful posts. This includes: bashing, name-calling or insults directed at a board member.


- Click here for complete Hydrogenaudio Terms of Service

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > »   
Closed TopicStart new topic
Anyone else use 320 kbps mp3's?, n00b here.
320 kbps mp3's
Do You ever use 320 kbps mp3's?
Yes, rarely. [ 117 ] ** [23.12%]
Yes, often. [ 93 ] ** [18.38%]
No, never. [ 296 ] ** [58.50%]
Can you tell the difference between 256 kbps VBR or CBR mp3's and 320 kbps mp3's?
Yes. [ 48 ] ** [9.49%]
No. [ 434 ] ** [85.77%]
Only between 256 CBR and 320 CBR [ 24 ] ** [4.74%]
Total Votes: 643
  
incunabula
post Jul 31 2008, 18:50
Post #26





Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 9-February 07
Member No.: 40475



Not to beat a dead horse, but you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing a simple ABX test using foobar. The key concept i didn't see mentioned previously is that you should ensure you are testing using your own rips and using a current version of LAME (3.97 or the newly released 3.98) so you are comparing apples to apples. I think most people on this board could discern between a random 256 mp3 from somewhere (that may have been transcoded from a 128 original) and another 320 file from some other source. That is not surprising. Personally, i have fun doing ABX tests but i also enjoy dabbling with audio software and testing the abilities of different codecs. If it turns out you can't discern between 256 and 320 (or, say 128 and 320) you can potentially save alot of storage space on your portable device as well as your hard drive. If you aren't limited to MP3 you should check out AAC which yields pretty incredible detail at very low bitrates.

On the other hand, if it turns out that you can reliably discern between say LAME 256 vs 320 or even 320 vs. lossless (as your first post states), you have exceptional hearing and can prove very valuable to this forum as well as the development of future codec releases. If you hadn't noticed (or searched at all) the developers of the LAME codec, the nero AAC codec and loads of lossless codecs are frequent posters here and actively seek input folks with exceptional hearing abilities. They are not here by accident, but more likely because this forum is more scientifically-oriented and not about dubious claims.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JAKE196
post Jul 31 2008, 21:21
Post #27





Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 12-July 08
Member No.: 55662



I'll test myself then, what specific program should I use and where do i download it?, How do these tests go about, do they ask you to guess the bitrate or something?

EDIT: I'll look up foobar.

I'm fairly sure this is not because of the placebo effect, when I compare tracks I try to pick out the layers of music very carefully and compare how they sound. I'm not an idiot. In addition my library consists of different bitrate files including 320, 256, 256-320 vbr, 192-256 vbr, and 192, and often i can tell if a song is slightly lower quality than the rest of my library. And to answer another question All of my CD's are encoded with LAME 3.97 or 3.98, and most of my downloaded files are from amazonmp3, which are supposed to be LAME encoded. And no one has "good ears?," surely some people have more sensitive ears than others, most of my friends who listen to mp3's and aac's can't even tell the difference betwen mp3 and cd quality. . . the n00bs.

If you guys are really mad at me for having an opinion however 'invalid' it may be, I will take some kind of test.
My opinion seems factual to me I'm not just lying for my own amusement. I'm not expecting anyone to just straight up believe it like one of you said I was.

I was going to let this thread be. . . but it's hard to ignore people when they are so determined to not even listen to your point of view however radical it may be. I had no idea it was so radical until I made this thread. I would not have made it if I knew. . . I'm sorry.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
smok3
post Jul 31 2008, 21:30
Post #28


A/V Moderator


Group: Moderator
Posts: 1726
Joined: 30-April 02
From: Slovenia
Member No.: 1922



there is nothing radical in your point of view and as you figured out 'opinions' don't really matter....

QUOTE
most of my friends who listen to mp3's and aac's can't even tell the difference betwen mp3 and cd quality. . . the n00bs

did they make some ABX test, or how did you figure that out? tongue.gif

This post has been edited by smok3: Jul 31 2008, 21:32


--------------------
PANIC: CPU 1: Cache Error (unrecoverable - dcache data) Eframe = 0x90000000208cf3b8
NOTICE - cpu 0 didn't dump TLB, may be hung
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tpijag
post Jul 31 2008, 21:35
Post #29





Group: Members
Posts: 2345
Joined: 19-May 08
Member No.: 53637



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Jul 31 2008, 15:21) *
I'll test myself then, what specific program should I use and where do i download it?, How do these tests go about, do they ask you to guess the bitrate or something?

EDIT: I'll look up foobar.

I'm fairly sure this is not because of the placebo effect, when I compare tracks I try to pick out the layers of music very carefully and compare how they sound. I'm not an idiot. In addition my library consists of different bitrate files including 320, 256, 256-320 vbr, 192-256 vbr, and 192, and often i can tell if a song is slightly lower quality than the rest of my library. And to answer another question All of my CD's are encoded with LAME 3.97 or 3.98, and most of my downloaded files are from amazonmp3, which are supposed to be LAME encoded. And no one has "good ears?," surely some people have more sensitive ears than others, most of my friends who listen to mp3's and aac's can't even tell the difference betwen mp3 and cd quality. . . the n00bs.

If you guys are really mad at me for having an opinion however 'invalid' it may be, I will take some kind of test.
My opinion seems factual to me I'm not just lying for my own amusement. I'm not expecting anyone to just straight up believe it like one of you said I was.

I was going to let this thread be. . . but it's hard to ignore people when they are so determined to not even listen to your point of view however radical it may be. I had no idea it was so radical until I made this thread. I would not have made it if I knew. . . I'm sorry.



Nobody is mad at you. They are showing incredible restraint in not locking your topic. They are tying to teach.

"I am fairly sure this is not because of the placebo effect"

Forget about audio....the above comment from you show clearly you do not understand the effort that is being made to educate. Please understand, this is not an audio thing it is a science thing.

Human brains are tricky. Your brain may very well be able to hear distinctions. That would make you a very important part of this site if you should choose.... your brain is not immune to the placebo effects...that would make you stone, cold, dead.

terry

This post has been edited by tpijag: Jul 31 2008, 21:35
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Jul 31 2008, 21:57
Post #30





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Jul 31 2008, 13:21) *
I was going to let this thread be. . . but it's hard to ignore people when they are so determined to not even listen to your point of view however radical it may be.
We've heard this point of view countless times. However it would seem that you really aren't listening to us. You've already been given information about ABX testing, but it would appear you haven't payed much attention.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=580176
Hint: the words underlined are links for you to click on.

EDIT: It's been brought to my attention that a kind member has chosen to provide personal assistance to JAKE196 in order to help him with ABX testing. I think it would be great to find another person with golden ears. I for one wish Guru would come back.

This post has been edited by greynol: Jul 31 2008, 22:14


--------------------
Placebophiles: put up or shut up!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kornchild2002
post Aug 1 2008, 01:01
Post #31





Group: Members
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8-April 05
From: Cincinnati, OH
Member No.: 21277



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Jul 31 2008, 14:21) *
I'm fairly sure this is not because of the placebo effect, when I compare tracks I try to pick out the layers of music very carefully and compare how they sound. I'm not an idiot.


Falling for the placebo affect does not make you an idiot, it makes you human. Also not being able to hear the difference between a 128kbps mp3 file and the source lossless file doesn't make you an idiot either. Now, making claims without backing them up and then continuing to make said claims, even though you were told otherwise, makes you stubborn and ill-informed.

It looks like you are accepting the need for a blind ABX test though and I applaud you for taking the steps to conduct one. You will probably be surprised by what your ears hear even at the lower bitrates. Just remember to not take anything personal here said on Hydrogenaudio. We understand that you were just expressing your opinion but there are rules here that must be followed. You will be able to safely express your opinion after you conduct your blind ABX tests as you will know the purpose of conducting such a test and understand how it really tests you.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Bodhi
post Aug 1 2008, 20:43
Post #32





Group: Members
Posts: 261
Joined: 10-June 06
Member No.: 31712



VBR V0 here!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Tahnru
post Aug 1 2008, 20:44
Post #33





Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 17-October 05
From: United States
Member No.: 25178



QUOTE (Bodhi @ Aug 1 2008, 14:43) *
VBR V0 here!


I ... don't understand.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Bodhi
post Aug 1 2008, 20:52
Post #34





Group: Members
Posts: 261
Joined: 10-June 06
Member No.: 31712



QUOTE (Tahnru @ Aug 1 2008, 21:44) *
QUOTE (Bodhi @ Aug 1 2008, 14:43) *

VBR V0 here!


I ... don't understand.

I encode my MP3 using Lame 3.98 VBR V0 (bitrate included between 220 and 260 Kbps) and I'm surely not gonna make the difference between V0 and 320 Kbps!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Tahnru
post Aug 1 2008, 20:58
Post #35





Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 17-October 05
From: United States
Member No.: 25178



@ Bodhi

Ahhh! Sorry - I have been watching the thread for a while now. I had forgotten where it started. The conversation had touched on ABX tests, which I tried to associate your comment with.

Confusion has been cleared.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Bodhi
post Aug 1 2008, 21:05
Post #36





Group: Members
Posts: 261
Joined: 10-June 06
Member No.: 31712



QUOTE (Tahnru @ Aug 1 2008, 21:58) *
@ Bodhi

Ahhh! Sorry - I have been watching the thread for a while now. I had forgotten where it started. The conversation had touched on ABX tests, which I tried to associate your comment with.

Confusion has been cleared.

Sorry for the pseudo out of topic laugh.gif
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
sld
post Aug 1 2008, 21:16
Post #37





Group: Members
Posts: 1016
Joined: 4-March 03
From: Singapore
Member No.: 5312



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Aug 1 2008, 04:21) *
but it's hard to ignore people when they are so determined to not even listen to your point of view however radical it may be. I had no idea it was so radical until I made this thread.

The truth is, Hydrogenaudio is radical for instituting ABX testing. There are many forumers here who frequent (or used to frequent) some of the pseudo-science audio forums scattered around the Web. To them, your opinion is a tired old one (by that, I mean typical stuff without the necessary scientific backing to it; I don't intend any offence).

With Foobar2000 (on Windows, or on Wine on Linux), ABX becomes as easy as just raising one's hand, to borrow from a Chinese idiom. =)

This post has been edited by sld: Aug 1 2008, 21:16
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
krabapple
post Aug 1 2008, 22:21
Post #38





Group: Members
Posts: 2181
Joined: 18-December 03
Member No.: 10538



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Jul 30 2008, 20:55) *
Sorry, I should have read the rules, I didn't know this forum was so incredibly serious.

I swear I could tell between a high bitrate VBR version of a fairly complex song and a 320 kbps version of a fairly complex song as long as they were encoded the same. Is there any way we can set up a test on this site?



(to HA)This is the sort of report I had in mind when I started my thread about what types of music are hardest to lossy encode 'transparently.

Over and over on the interwebs I see people assuming that 'long and complex music' must be harder to lossy encode well. Meanwhile, the music in samples actually used to tweak LAME ('killer samples') doesn't bear that out.

Anyway, just sayin'. Maybe this super-common misconception can be dealt with in an HA wiki or something.

(to JAKE196) It's called an ABX test, and you can perform it yourself by downloading WinABX or downloading foobar2000, which includes an ABX comparison tool.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Aug 1 2008, 22:26
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
HotshotGG
post Aug 1 2008, 22:50
Post #39





Group: Members
Posts: 1593
Joined: 24-March 02
From: Revere, MA
Member No.: 1607



QUOTE
I swear I could tell between a high bitrate VBR version of a fairly complex song and a 320 kbps version of a fairly complex song as long as they were encoded the same. Is there any way we can set up a test on this site?


No we can't tongue.gif. Now go away! Unless you have a problematic test sample. ABXing is for your ears only. wink.gif


QUOTE
Anyway, just sayin'. Maybe this super-common misconception can be dealt with in an HA wiki or something.


This kind of reminds me of the whole "joint-stereo" ordeal. I don't know how or where these myths come from, but they are generated some force of evil. wink.gif

This post has been edited by HotshotGG: Aug 1 2008, 22:57


--------------------
College student/IT Assistant
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JAKE196
post Aug 1 2008, 23:42
Post #40





Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 12-July 08
Member No.: 55662



Well, I tried a couple of ABX tests and failed. cool.gif

Wow. . . . all I can say is, holy crap! That there 'placebo effect' must be powerful! ohmy.gif How F'd up is the human mind?!

I'm sorry for all the trouble I've caused.

I'm an epic n00b. seriously. I'll punch myself later.

I think from now on I'll stick to 256-320 kbps VBR's as an absolute max, and I'll usually just use 256 CBR.
I might do some more tests.

One more thing though, If you guys tried to explain your points to me a bit more nicely I may have believed you, but to me you all just sounded like angry nerds. tongue.gif

I'm glad this whole thing happened though, I learned something and it saved me some memory.

This post has been edited by JAKE196: Aug 1 2008, 23:43
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Tahnru
post Aug 1 2008, 23:52
Post #41





Group: Members
Posts: 325
Joined: 17-October 05
From: United States
Member No.: 25178



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Aug 1 2008, 17:42) *
Well, I tried a couple of ABX tests and failed. cool.gif

Wow. . . . all I can say is, holy crap! That there 'placebo effect' must be powerful! ohmy.gif How F'd up is the human mind?!

I'm sorry for all the trouble I've caused.

I'm an epic n00b. seriously. I'll punch myself later.

I think from now on I'll stick to 256-320 kbps VBR's as an absolute max, and I'll usually just use 256 CBR.
I might do some more tests.

One more thing though, If you guys tried to explain your points to me a bit more nicely I may have believed you, but to me you all just sounded like angry nerds. tongue.gif

I'm glad this whole thing happened though, I learned something and it saved me some memory.


I'm glad to read that you were successful in performing your tests. Don't beat yourself up - keep doing tests! I think I can speak for everyone here in this: We'd LOVE to see ABX tests performed that successfully demonstrate audible differences in previously indistinguishable files. The feedback is invaluable for making improvements.

Cheers,
Rob
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Aug 2 2008, 00:15
Post #42





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



@JAKE196:
Regardless of the result, kudos for trying the test!

As for settings, I don't think it's a good idea to use 256 CBR. I would suggest -V0, if you are still gunning for this type of bitrate. Some passages may actually require 320kbit frames in order to be reproduced properly, even with lower quality settings such as -V5. Yes the reservoir can help, but it makes no sense to tie Lame's hands telling it that it can't use 320kbit frames. There are some here who will suggest something like 270 ABR and I really don't have much to say about it except that they may have different opinions now that 3.98 has been released. Personally I use -V3. I have been able to ABX some of my more typical tracks with -V5 and have chosen -V3 over -V4 for a bit of margin and don't have an issue with the extra space. These tests were conducted with 3.97. I haven't done any testing with 3.98 yet.


--------------------
Placebophiles: put up or shut up!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
JasonQ
post Aug 2 2008, 00:25
Post #43





Group: Members
Posts: 43
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 47794



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Aug 1 2008, 17:42) *
Well, I tried a couple of ABX tests and failed. cool.gif

Wow. . . . all I can say is, holy crap! That there 'placebo effect' must be powerful! ohmy.gif How F'd up is the human mind?!

I'm sorry for all the trouble I've caused.

I'm an epic n00b. seriously. I'll punch myself later.

I think from now on I'll stick to 256-320 kbps VBR's as an absolute max, and I'll usually just use 256 CBR.
I might do some more tests.

One more thing though, If you guys tried to explain your points to me a bit more nicely I may have believed you, but to me you all just sounded like angry nerds. tongue.gif

I'm glad this whole thing happened though, I learned something and it saved me some memory.



Jake, glad you did a test. That was a real eye opener for me as well. Another eye opener for you might be how low your settings go (with regard to bit rates) before you can consistently ABX. It will be much lower than you think. The V0 setting is nice because it uses the full 320 bits when Lame thinks it needs to but retains a nice level of efficiency. I personally use V3 which is probably still slightly overkill. These days the V5 setting is difficult to ABX (for me) most of the time for me.

I think the response here was due to the fact that the people here have seen this a million times before and so they assume they are just dealing with another troll.

- Jason

This post has been edited by JasonQ: Aug 2 2008, 00:26
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kornchild2002
post Aug 2 2008, 00:28
Post #44





Group: Members
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8-April 05
From: Cincinnati, OH
Member No.: 21277



I agree with greynol. Look into using even lower settings than 256kbps CBR. Also remember that the Lame mp3 encoder was tuned for VBR encoding, hence the different -V values. To me, not using a -V preset is like purchasing a nice car and then only driving it backwards. You are going to get limited performance out of the car when doing this.

So start off with -V 5 and try to ABX that from the lossless source. If you pass, move on up to -V 4 and test that. Keep going until you fail your ABX test. More than likely you will find -V 5 to -V 3 very satisfying.

Edit: Kudos on taking the ABX test. Just so you know, JasonQ is right as many, many people come on here and make these claims just to troll around. They like to see people get fired up. So other people come on here, sharply reply, and that user is either banned, has their post locked, or put in place. It is hard to tell the difference between a troll and someone who is just ill-informed. No offense but your posts were coming off like a troll's in the beginning but they changed over time.

This post has been edited by kornchild2002: Aug 2 2008, 00:31
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
SpasV
post Aug 2 2008, 04:21
Post #45





Group: Banned
Posts: 69
Joined: 20-July 07
Member No.: 45497



dry.gif Sorry, I am not going to answer the questions in the poll.
I would answer this way:
Personally I prefer not to use fixed bit rate. Instead, I use VBR at the highest quality (-V0).
Maybe I cannot hear the difference between mp3s @256 kbps and @320 kbps but most probably I can tell it with a spectrum analyzer which is my working tool.
Lame cut the spectrum at 20 kHz when works at fixed 320 kbps and at 19 kHz, ignoring parameters --lowpass or -k if they work at all, when -V0 is used - it is for sure.
And finally, if you use -ms instead of -mj Lame adds ~60 kbps in VBR mode of compression.

This post has been edited by SpasV: Aug 2 2008, 04:25
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Synthetic Soul
post Aug 2 2008, 06:52
Post #46





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4887
Joined: 12-August 04
From: Exeter, UK
Member No.: 16217



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Aug 1 2008, 23:42) *
One more thing though, If you guys tried to explain your points to me a bit more nicely I may have believed you, but to me you all just sounded like angry nerds. tongue.gif
If you didn't - even now - continue to use patronising name-calling then perhaps I may give a damn. It's taken days from your initial post for you to actually take our advice. Kudos for doing so, but I for one am still pissed with the effort that had to go into this thread to get a sensible post from you.

Sorry for being an angry nerd, but we see this too many times; you're not a special case: just another noob wasting my time.

Maybe I shouldn't post so early in the morning...


--------------------
I'm on a horse.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Bodhi
post Aug 2 2008, 07:36
Post #47





Group: Members
Posts: 261
Joined: 10-June 06
Member No.: 31712



QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 2 2008, 07:52) *
you're not a special case


Maybe we should just highlight the fact that he is one rare noob to decide to go through an ABX test.

QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 2 2008, 07:52) *
Maybe I shouldn't post so early in the morning...


Indeed, he is the one who "pays" for the others.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Synthetic Soul
post Aug 2 2008, 07:59
Post #48





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4887
Joined: 12-August 04
From: Exeter, UK
Member No.: 16217



QUOTE (Bodhi @ Aug 2 2008, 07:36) *
Maybe we should just highlight the fact that he is one rare noob to decide to go through an ABX test.
I think others have done that more than enough before me.

QUOTE (Bodhi @ Aug 2 2008, 07:36) *
Indeed, he is the one who "pays" for the others.
I don't remember previous noobs being so uninformed and patronising all at the same time. He needs a little humility in order for me to care whether he is educated or not.


--------------------
I'm on a horse.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Bodhi
post Aug 2 2008, 08:15
Post #49





Group: Members
Posts: 261
Joined: 10-June 06
Member No.: 31712



QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 2 2008, 08:59) *
I don't remember previous noobs being so uninformed and patronising all at the same time.

Well, that's for sure...
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Alexxander
post Aug 2 2008, 09:01
Post #50





Group: Members
Posts: 457
Joined: 15-November 04
Member No.: 18143



QUOTE (JAKE196 @ Aug 2 2008, 00:42) *
...
I think from now on I'll stick to 256-320 kbps VBR's as an absolute max, and I'll usually just use 256 CBR.
I might do some more tests.
...

Using CBR below 320 kbps is not a good choice, you can get better quality by using VBR or ABR. If you want to control de resulting filesize use ABR. For a start try ABXing ABR 200 kbps files, you will see how hard or possibly impossible it is to match tracks. Depending on result you can go up or down in bitrate.

If you like the challenge try to ABX VBR -V4, with good ears you might be able to distinguish the tracks after some training. Like most abilities you can improve them by training.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

5 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Closed TopicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th July 2014 - 03:01