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"deleting pointless full quote of last post"
_m_
post Oct 28 2011, 07:39
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I'm really annoyed by this. One moderator loves to pointlessly delete quotes from user posts. Please stop. It makes no sense. It doesn't help anybody and actually hurts.
Quoting previous posts is a clear reference to which post I am replying to. And when somebody doesn't read whole topic but only skims through it, it allows to go only forward w/out backsearches "what did he mean"
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hlloyge
post Oct 28 2011, 12:19
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I am not questioning anyone here, but I've seen these removals when user would quote almost whole post to answer to question in the last two or three lines.
Leave only that question, it should be enough. If someone is interested, he (or she) will find the relevant post.
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db1989
post Oct 28 2011, 13:26
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I edit simply to attempt to increase the readability of topics. Allow me to explain my (good?) intentions in more detail than anyone probably wanted:

(1) I remove full quotations of posts that are directly above the one in question, often because the user has clicked edit: quote reply and not removed the automatically inserted quotation (if I were king, I think I would disable that feature and leave it confined to the multi-quote button actually, no; it is useful but no less of a potential nuisance for that!). In this case, quoting the preceding post in its entirety not only is redundant but also wastes screen space and increases the amount of distance that the reader must scroll in order to navigate through the thread. The user would not have to search backwards in the topic, unless you mean scrolling up a couple of centimetres to read the above post. If the preceding post is quite complex and thus would benefit from a quote, I may attempt to truncate the full-quote to what I think and hope is the relevant portion, as quite rightly suggested by hlloyge.

(2) When a user quotes the whole of a post that is further back, I occasionally try to slim it down if it is large, contains inline images, etc. In this case, the reader can still use the snap-back arrow to locate the original post. But I usually just leave the quote in because, as you said, _m_, it can be beneficial to the reader, in contrast to full-quoting the above post and thereby somewhat assuming a lack of intelligence and/or extreme laziness on their part.

I can easily believe that I get this wrong, and I apologise to any users who think their quotations have been removed inappropriately; please PM me to explain and have the post reverted if so.

However, I see little justification for quoting the post above your own in its entirety, as I am sure the reader can make the connection in most cases. It does not take much time or energy to consider whether an automatically generated quotation is necessary and to remove it if not, but it does considerably improve readibility when you do.

This post has been edited by db1989: Oct 28 2011, 14:12
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_m_
post Oct 28 2011, 13:54
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From a writer's perspective, I prefer quoting to inline reply whenever I'm writing something that's going to take more than a few seconds simply because at the time I post my reply, there might already be another post. It happened to me many times, editing to insert a quote is unwanted and burden and often my post is not well understandable when sb. posts before me.

Going 1 post up costs 2 page reloads when it happens on a page break and even when it doesn't, I have less scrolling. Efficiency is important when going through long threads.
I acknowledge that quoting previous posts increases scrolling and that it's bad. Personally I don't notice it though unless it's something really big, I totally agree that with big images and / or lots of text moderation is useful. But I have an impression that you're removing even the slightest amounts of quoted text and edition notifications take space too - does it really save anything in such cases? And they are worse, because unlike quotations - they are not usual parts of posts, so they unnecessarily grab my attention. I didn't think it through before, but I guess that's the thing that annoys me the most, I waste time repeatedly reading that a moderator corrected some minor stylistic issue. It takes much more time than little scrolling.

This post has been edited by _m_: Oct 28 2011, 14:18
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pdq
post Oct 28 2011, 13:56
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Oct 28 2011, 08:26) *
In this case, the reader can still use the snap-back arrow to locate the original post.

Wow, that is a feature that I had never noticed before. Very useful! smile.gif
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Cynic
post Oct 28 2011, 14:44
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Same here.
Also, I'm in favour of quote removal as described by db1989.
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lvqcl
post Oct 28 2011, 15:40
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http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=366987
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db1989
post Oct 28 2011, 16:36
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Ooh, I quite like that thread! wink.gif There are some worthwhile questions raised there, so Id be interested in the opinions of members on those as well as the issues already mentioned here.

QUOTE (_m_ @ Oct 28 2011, 13:54) *
at the time I post my reply, there might already be another post. [. . .] often my post is not well understandable when sb. posts before me.

Going 1 post up costs 2 page reloads when it happens on a page break
I acknowledge the chance that a post may be put out of context if a reply and/or page-break occur between your beginning and submitting your reply, but I think this rather small risk is worth taking rather than filling the thread with quotes just-in-case.

QUOTE
edition notifications take space too - does it really save anything in such cases? And they are worse, because unlike quotations - they are not usual parts of posts, so they unnecessarily grab my attention. I didn't think it through before, but I guess that's the thing that annoys me the most, I waste time repeatedly reading that a moderator corrected some minor stylistic issue. It takes much more time than little scrolling.
You have a point, and I have wondered about this. However, it would be very impolite to edit a post by another user without providing a reason, and the notification is fairly small; I suppose the background colour is the main distraction, but that comes as part of the IPB theme.

FWIW, another forum I visit is full of giant quotes and pyramids, so that shows me what might be and perhaps factors into my enthusiasm! smile.gif It recently upgraded to a newer version of IPB, which included restrictions on nested quotes and the number of quotes per post; however, I think these were too strict and ended up being relaxed or removed altogether. Certainly, a sensible degree of something like that, as suggested by Sebastian Mares in the other thread, may be worthy of consideration. Also suggested there was the creation of a policy on quoting. Again, it would be interesting to read what other users think about topics such as these.

Overall, moderators want not to be continually editing posts by others or to seem at all officious, but to keep the forum tidy for everyones sake! Of course, there must be a balance between rules and common sense, but it isnt much to ask that users put in a trifling effort to help. I acknowledge that there are various complicating factors on both sides, but I hope theres a good balance to be found.
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tpijag
post Oct 28 2011, 16:53
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I agree with the pointlessness of full quoting of immediately preceding post. The times that a page break gets in the way is not often.

Forum / net communication is sadly, oftentimes, done with much less thought than other forms of communication. I lean towards the school of thought that if you can not take the time to learn/use inline quotes sparingly as above, you may very well want to rethink whether there is a need for your contribution to a thread. And quoting multiple times the length of your own contribution is pointless. Not everyone accesses the board while sitting in front of a large screen.

This post has been edited by tpijag: Oct 28 2011, 16:53
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greynol
post Oct 28 2011, 17:02
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QUOTE (_m_ @ Oct 27 2011, 23:39) *
w/out backsearches "what did he mean"

Having to read the previous post for context is hardly qualifies as a harmful inconvenience, even if it requires jumping to the previous page.

QUOTE (_m_ @ Oct 27 2011, 23:39) *
I'm really annoyed by this.

Rather than whine about moderation, perhaps you might choose to find other things with which to be annoyed.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 28 2011, 18:58
Reason for edit: More to say.


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_m_
post Oct 28 2011, 17:31
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QUOTE ("lvqcl")

Like I said, there are cases where such moderation is worthwhile. And so are ones where it's harmful.

QUOTE ("greynol")
Rather than whine about moderation, perhaps you might choose to find other things with which to be annoyed.

Speaking for myself, I don't search for things to annoy me. But maybe it's just me.

QUOTE ("db1989")
I acknowledge the chance that a post may be put out of context if a reply and/or page-break occur between your beginning and submitting your reply, but I think this rather small risk is worth taking rather than filling the thread with quotes just-in-case.

It depends on how long does it take to write a post. I spent 20 minutes on the previous one, in such cases chances of somebodu cutting in are certainly reasonable. The post I am writing now is going to take much longer than this - because I won't manage to finish it before the dinner. When writing simple things in active topic, chances of interuption are quite high too. There are cases when at the point of starting a reply I know what to write already and the topic isn't hot - in such cases I don't quote the previous post and it happens about 50% of time. But the other 50% is significant.

QUOTE ("db1989")
You have a point, and I have wondered about this. However, it would be very impolite to edit a post by another user without providing a reason, and the notification is fairly small; I suppose the background colour is the main distraction, but that comes as part of the IPB theme.


Maybe instead of a style-controlled notice you could add text to the post:
"Edited by:
Reason: "
Make the font slightly smaller than post body and maybe grey and it should serve its function w/out sticking out so much.

QUOTE ("db1989")
Ooh, I quite like that thread! wink.gif There are some worthwhile questions raised there, so Id be interested in the opinions of members on those as well as the issues already mentioned here.

I like your attitute. I started quite aggressively, but you went cooperative. I have to say it's better.
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greynol
post Oct 28 2011, 17:45
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QUOTE (_m_ @ Oct 28 2011, 09:31) *
Make the font slightly smaller than post body and maybe grey and it should serve its function w/out sticking out so much.

I'm not sure this is possible, at least not when using the Reason box. Perhaps you can find it within yourself to skip over it. It took me a while, but I've gotten to the point where I have much more control over what I allow to annoy me. This is not a helpless situation.

As it currently stands I don't feel particularly motivated to go out of my way to appease what I see to be only a vocal minority.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 28 2011, 20:37


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[JAZ]
post Oct 28 2011, 18:31
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I usually use the fast reply button to add replies to posts, since I generally don't need to reffer to something specifically.

Said that, i do use the quote and reply buttons sometimes, and i definitely edit the texts as to quote exactly what I am interested in quoting.

I am on the side of the moderators in this respect, since quoting the whole post is usually more annonying to the thread as a whole than not having a quote.

Also, adding a quote "just because someone might reply while I am writing my reply" is like trying to fix something before it is broken.

Sincerely, a board is not an e-mail list. The posts are there and usually there is no need for quoting the whole text, and I don't think small quotes are getting deleted.
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greynol
post Oct 28 2011, 18:50
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Deleting one or two lines is usually a waste and can often add back that much space because of the change in formatting due to editing.

Quotes are useful since they allow the thread view modes to work, but having everyone conform to using them as well as editing down the superfluous quoted material is simply an unreasonable expectation. I will continue to do what I think benefits the majority of users here.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 28 2011, 18:58


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[JAZ]
post Oct 28 2011, 19:07
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Errrm.. my message was meant to users, not to moderators. I.e. I do not expect moderators to "format the quotes".
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greynol
post Oct 28 2011, 19:32
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...and my message was meant for everyone, not just you. wink.gif

In case I didn't make sense earlier:
When anyone edits a post, additional space will be appended at the bottom, provided the post is more than just a few lines. IOW, if you edit remove a single-line quote, the edited post may consume more space than the original post, kinda defeating the purpose.

I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to add quotes when they aren't there, just as I'm not going to edit every single post that has a quote that I don't like; ignoring the fact that there will always be posts that will go overlooked. I will sometimes take it upon myself to fix botched quotes when I catch them, however.

My time is better spent keeping this forum free from spam.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 28 2011, 21:33


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db1989
post Oct 28 2011, 20:29
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QUOTE (_m_ @ Oct 28 2011, 17:31) *
Maybe instead of a style-controlled notice you could add text to the post:
"Edited by:
Reason: "
Make the font slightly smaller than post body and maybe grey and it should serve its function w/out sticking out so much.
Fair point: I’ve seen other moderators explain their edit using an added line in green, grey, smaller text, etc. rather than entering it in the provided text box—perhaps because it’s only available when one uses the ‘quick edit’ feature and not during a ‘full edit’, as far as I can see—and this may be worth trying. Edit: Nah, I don’t think I like it much; moreover, then your added line gets included in other people’s quotes, which looks messy and just further complicates it all… wacko.gif

QUOTE
I like your attitute. I started quite aggressively, but you went cooperative. I have to say it's better.
Well, we all want the place to run as smoothly and tidily as possible for everyone! So constructive discussion is always welcome. (But while we’re at it, it’s not exactly that I “love” it. tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by db1989: Oct 28 2011, 20:49
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botface
post Oct 29 2011, 13:04
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I can see both sides in this. Obviously unnecessarily quoting of the preceding post in full is often unnecessary and wastes space. On the other hand I recently had a misunderstanding involving both the moderators contributing to this thread. I queried a response to a post thinking it referred to one post and it turned out that it referred to a completely different one about which we had no disagreement at all. So that was a waste of 3 people's time and effort that could have been avoided by quoting appropriately. And I guess that's the answer, as has been pointed out. Don't just quote the preceding post in full or assume that your post will end up where you expect it to. Extract the parts you are actually responding to. Of course that takes more effort and you might run into the limit on the number of quotes allowed. Maybe it's just a minor problem with forums that's unavoidable

This post has been edited by botface: Oct 29 2011, 13:05
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greynol
post Oct 29 2011, 18:42
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People who do not take the time to quote in a thoughtful manner should not be surprised upon seeing that their full-quotation of the previous post has been stripped.

Those who would go so far as to throw a tantrum over it are probably better off finding a different forum to troll. This was not directed at any member in particular (well maybe it is a little, right db1989? wink.gif). It most certainly isn't directed at anyone in this discussion; you have my word.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 29 2011, 19:15


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mobyduck
post Oct 30 2011, 11:11
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QUOTE ([JAZ] @ Oct 28 2011, 09:31) *
i do use the quote and reply buttons sometimes, and i definitely edit the texts as to quote exactly what I am interested in quoting.

I am on the side of the moderators in this respect, since quoting the whole post is usually more annonying to the thread as a whole than not having a quote.

Also, adding a quote "just because someone might reply while I am writing my reply" is like trying to fix something before it is broken.

Sincerely, a board is not an e-mail list. The posts are there and usually there is no need for quoting the whole text, and I don't think small quotes are getting deleted.
Ditto. smile.gif

Alessandro
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GHammer
post Oct 30 2011, 17:46
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One of the reasons I have visited this forum for as long as I have is the moderation.
I 'vote' to keep things the way they are.
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