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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
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post Jul 21 2010, 10:10
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 21 2010, 08:27) *
We aren't talking about lossless codecs; it seems from your post that you don't know of any lossy codecs.


Sorry, it was a typo. The correct sentence would be:

For any lossy codec this could be guaranteed, though, with sufficient effort.
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Alex B
post Jul 21 2010, 13:30
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QUOTE (Case @ Jul 20 2010, 20:50) *
These are not original poster's samples but they have worked reliably for showing gapless issues for me. part 1 and part 2.

Thanks Case,

I tested the samples. They are fine for testing sample accurate decoding, but they don't cause the LAME MP3 encoding & decoding process to produce a waveform mismatch that would cause an audible effect like a click. I tried -V9, -V5 and -b 320. As expected, sample accurate decoding worked fine and there is no reason to believe that any audio data would cause it to fail.

We would need to have samples that would produce encoding artifacts that are strong enough to cause audible discrepancy at the track boundary.


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Case
post Jul 21 2010, 14:51
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They do produce a click. Listen again more closely and use headphones if necessary.
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andrew22690
post Jul 21 2010, 16:20
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QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 3 2010, 21:43) *
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
I am ripping with EAC and encoding with Lame, (version 3.98). 99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect. I am using Foobar for P.C playback.

As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two. Does anyone have any ideas? I have tried various releases of lame and EAC the Glitch is always in the same spot it and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

Thanks.


O.K I opened the file in Audacity, zoomed in and found there is a very small amount of silence at the end of the track. Is this silence the click?
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2Bdecided
post Jul 21 2010, 16:52
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QUOTE (Canar @ Jul 4 2010, 03:14) *
If you rip it to a single file with cuesheet, then encode that file to MP3, you can split using pcutmp3 to generate a different kind of gapless information than LAME provides. Doing this might fix your problem.
This is the one and only guaranteed solution that I know of. Not sure what the three pages after this helpful post were hoping to produce. Unless you use pcutmp3, gapless does not equal glitchless (except by good luck, which can be increased by using less lossy settings - this isn't a guarantee though!).

Cheers,
David.

This post has been edited by 2Bdecided: Jul 21 2010, 16:53
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greynol
post Jul 21 2010, 17:31
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QUOTE (Case @ Jul 21 2010, 06:51) *
They do produce a click. Listen again more closely and use headphones if necessary.

I tried both -V3 and -V3 -ms (Lame 3.98) and heard a definite click in the left channel at the transition.


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andrew22690
post Jul 21 2010, 21:14
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Just finished encoding some of my problem tracks with Lame "-b320 %s %d " and on all the tracks the click is gone or reduced to a level that after multiple listening sessions I cannot hear it. Good enough... biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by greynol: Jul 21 2010, 21:46
Reason for edit: Removed unnecessary quotations.
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greynol
post Jul 21 2010, 21:32
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QUOTE (Case @ Jul 21 2010, 06:51) *
They do produce a click. Listen again more closely and use headphones if necessary.

I just tried -b320 (Lame 3.98.4) and can still hear a click in the left channel at the transition.


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Breath is found in plots and DR figures.
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andrew22690
post Jul 21 2010, 21:42
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These were on my own encoded files. Could be that the click was smaller to begin with?

This post has been edited by greynol: Jul 21 2010, 21:45
Reason for edit: Removed unnecessary quotations of your previous posts. Try the "FAST REPLY" button or edit unnecessary quotations next time.
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Case
post Jul 30 2010, 11:16
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I decided to try Andavari's idea of short fading and it seems to work quite wonderfully. Pcutmp3 gives perfect gapless mp3 playback in foobar2000 but the files don't work properly on my portable players (iPods and Clip+).
I made a DSP component for foobar that automatically fades the beginning and end of tracks to silence and it gives me glitchless transition on all problem tracks I have tried so far. If you wish to try download Fake Gapless DSP.
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Alex B
post Jul 30 2010, 12:04
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 21 2010, 19:31) *
QUOTE (Case @ Jul 21 2010, 06:51) *
They do produce a click. Listen again more closely and use headphones if necessary.

I tried both -V3 and -V3 -ms (Lame 3.98) and heard a definite click in the left channel at the transition.

I have forgot to post that I revisited the samples and was able to hear the click with headphones when I knew exactly when the transition happens and what to expect then. Earlier I used desktop speakers and I didn't watch the computer screen so I didn't know exactly when the track changed. The faint high pitched click was masked by background noise, room acoustics and the loud cymbal crash that occurs only about 50 ms later. I must admit that I expected a more pronounced click or pop.

I wonder if a VBR encoder could have a mode that would use the maximum possible quality for the first and last frame (and maybe gradually change to the normal quality during a few following/preceding frames). It could make some track transition problems less pronounced without increasing the file size significantly.


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Alex B
post Jul 30 2010, 12:27
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QUOTE (Case @ Jul 30 2010, 13:16) *
I made a DSP component for foobar that automatically fades the beginning and end of tracks to silence and it gives me glitchless transition on all problem tracks I have tried so far. If you wish to try download Fake Gapless DSP.

This is interesting. I don't have an archive of problem tracks, but I tried it with some gapless albums that have always played fine and at least I couldn't hear any adverse effect.


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Case
post Jul 30 2010, 15:08
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Here's 10 second clips of tracks that produce even more audible glitch that you will easily hear even with speakers. They are from tracks 1 and 2 of Misplaced Childhood by Marillion.
Attached File  m1.flac ( 860.68K ) Number of downloads: 199

Attached File  m2.flac ( 772.67K ) Number of downloads: 162
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Matt08642
post Sep 4 2010, 08:56
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QUOTE (Case @ Jul 30 2010, 10:08) *
Here's 10 second clips of tracks that produce even more audible glitch that you will easily hear even with speakers. They are from tracks 1 and 2 of Misplaced Childhood by Marillion.
Attached File  m1.flac ( 860.68K ) Number of downloads: 199

Attached File  m2.flac ( 772.67K ) Number of downloads: 162


I don't hear any glitches when I play those 2 FLAC files in foobar, nor do I hear any when I convert them to MP3 V0320 and play them in foobar.

As soon as I tried V0, there was a small pop between them.

Odd. sad.gif

This post has been edited by Matt08642: Sep 4 2010, 08:57
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Slipstreem
post Sep 4 2010, 12:42
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QUOTE (Matt08642 @ Sep 4 2010, 08:56) *
...I convert them to MP3 V0320 and play them in foobar... Odd. sad.gif

As there is no such thing, very! What are you talking about? tongue.gif
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Aleron Ives
post Sep 5 2010, 00:15
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QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Sep 4 2010, 04:42) *
QUOTE (Matt08642 @ Sep 4 2010, 08:56) *
...I convert them to MP3 V0320 and play them in foobar... Odd. sad.gif

As there is no such thing, very! What are you talking about? tongue.gif

I'm guessing he's talking about -V 0 -b 320?
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db1989
post Sep 5 2010, 00:45
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Or just the common misconception that VBR quality levels equate to or should arrive at some definable (average) bitrate (often fuelled by estimates quoted by frontends), in this case -V0 and 320 kbps.
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Slipstreem
post Sep 5 2010, 01:29
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 5 2010, 00:45) *
(often fuelled by estimates quoted by frontends), in this case -V0 and 320 kbps.

Maybe it depends which version of Foobar2000 he's using, but the two appear at different positions on the slider in V1.0.3 with V0 clearly marked as "~245kbps (*), V0" and the adjacent highest setting clearly marked as "320kbps CBR". It's impossible to confuse the two.
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db1989
post Sep 5 2010, 01:34
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I wasn't implicating foobar2000.

Or any application, in this case, since a VBR file obviously can't have an average bitrate of 320 kbps.
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pdq
post Sep 5 2010, 01:53
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Sep 4 2010, 20:34) *
I wasn't implicating foobar2000.

Or any application, in this case, since a VBR file obviously can't have an average bitrate of 320 kbps.

Well, sort of, since you can specify a VBR file with a minimum bitrate of 320 kbps. And, yes, you get a somewhat different file than a 320 kbps CBR encode.

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db1989
post Sep 5 2010, 02:00
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I suppose I should have anticipated that, especially given the mention of -V0 -b320 earlier. However, the resulting file is not VBR in the typical sense sense that frames have or can have different bitrates, only that the bit reservoir is used differently or suchlike IIRC.
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greynol
post Sep 5 2010, 02:40
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QUOTE (Slipstreem @ Sep 4 2010, 17:29) *
Maybe it depends which version of Foobar2000 he's using

He said he used foobar to play them, but never said what he used to convert them, specifically:
QUOTE (Matt08642 @ Sep 4 2010, 00:56) *
I don't hear any glitches when I play those 2 FLAC files in foobar, nor do I hear any when I convert them to MP3 V0320 and play them in foobar.

...and the speculation train rolls on.


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Matt08642
post Sep 5 2010, 11:14
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I meant 320, the V0320 thing was a typo.

Basically: CBR MP3 = No pop
VBR V0 = pop
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Case
post Sep 5 2010, 14:00
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QUOTE (Matt08642 @ Sep 4 2010, 10:56) *
I don't hear any glitches when I play those 2 FLAC files in foobar, nor do I hear any when I convert them to MP3 V0320 and play them in foobar.

As soon as I tried V0, there was a small pop between them.

Those samples indeed seem to get enough quality boost from CBR, but my earlier Dimmu Borgir samples still click even with forced 320 kbps.
I have switched to using Fake Gapless DSP and recompressed all my lossy files from my FLACs with it enabled. I haven't yet heard a glitch with it enabled on my tracks.
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andrew22690
post Sep 5 2010, 19:57
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QUOTE (Matt08642 @ Sep 5 2010, 12:14) *
I meant 320, the V0320 thing was a typo.

Basically: CBR MP3 = No pop
VBR V0 = pop


This is exactly my experience with VBR and CBR 320. I encode all my MP3's in CBR 320 now and No more Pops.
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