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Will language plugin support ever come?
Ben Her
post May 10 2004, 14:20
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Ok, I read the FAQ and ran a forum search, but I just have to ask anyway - will there ever be a time when foobar can handle language packs? I have been interested in doing this for a long time, but it doesn't seem to be on the development radar.

To be honest, I find the tone of the FAQ a bit terse if not rude. Not every non-native English speaker has an interest in studying the language or "problems with English." This is why people localize software in the first place.

Foobar is an excellent player, but as a translator, I find it a shame that foobar doesn't handle language plugins of some kind. Suggesting to others to write more FAQs, and further fragment foobar related resources, doesn't really seem like an ideal solution.
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The Link
post May 10 2004, 14:47
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In order to avoid some misunderstandings: I'm indifferent towards this topic. Just some thoughts I have about requests/questions like that:
The first sentence on the foobar2000 homepage is: "Foobar2000 is an advanced audio player for the Windows platform." While the second part is irrelevant, the first is not. People who are or think that they are advanced in audio related things know the standard expressions, which are almost always in english (i think of audio software/hardware equipment in general). I think that all the non fancy functionality of foobar is labled with its correct standard expression. That's of course just my whole opinion! Perhaps it makes more sense to ask plugin developers to supply some of their plugins in multiple languages or depend on language packs (whatever that means).
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Xenion
post May 10 2004, 19:34
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once you have cfg'ed it with all playlist design and stuff there are nearly no english words you have to face. only repeat, random, playlist and things like that i use for example in my language as well (for regular speach). if you edit tags (anvanced uhuh) words like "reload" and "close" are also acceptable imho.

if you have problems with the preferences you can still use a translater if you need it. foobar is worth it.
and btw: translating the preferences would have no sence, because many of the 3rd party plugins would be still in english.

This post has been edited by Xenion: May 10 2004, 19:35
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upNorth
post May 10 2004, 20:44
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This has been discussed before, and I think a very good reason for not supporting translations, is the potencial problem that all the translations can't keep up the pace of foobar's development. It might also be hard to ensure their quality.

Personally, I usually find it harder to use software that has been translated. The reason being that the translator has either been trying too hard (invented words or used words that nobody uses), hasn't translated everything, so you end up with mixed language, or has just done a bad job. I also very much agree with what Xenion wrote.

As it is now, the worst thing that could happen is that you struggle a little in the beginning, but you might learn some english in the process. Who doesn't need to know some english today anyway?

I realise that this might sound arrogant, but I believe that there are alot of people that want "this and that" without caring about the potensially negative consequences, as that's not their problem.

Btw: I think it's a pity that not everyone fill in their Country information. I find that interesting information when linked to the written english and also to difference in opinion. And I still miss seeing the flags.
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Moneo
post May 11 2004, 08:27
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In my opinion, there are several reasons why localized interface would not be much help to the users.

1. A good-quality translation is not at all easy to produce. The world of digital audio is mainly English-speaking, and some terms have simply no universally accepted translations. Personally, I find it hard to give russian equivalents for things like 'sample', 'bit depth', 'noise shaping', not to mention 'replaygain'.

2. Most advanced software related to audio comes without a localization. And for me, using Russian and English interfaces at the same time means constantly trying to figure which English term does this particular Russian word stand for. To add insult to injury, each piece of software tends to use its own terminology. Given the vast amount of third-party components available for foobar2000, I would expect to see the same, only within a single application.

3. Taking advantage of the more advanced foobar2000 features like making your own title formatting strings already implies some basic knowledge of English.

I participate in several Russian audio-related forums. In my experience, the problems people have with foobar2000 would not be solved by translating the interface. It's just as the FAQ puts it, a guide written in your native language would be much more useful.

This post has been edited by Moneo: Sep 7 2006, 09:44
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Ben Her
post May 11 2004, 13:42
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Thanks for the replies, I see what you mean. I sometimes tend to forget that the real meat of foobar are the disperately developed plugins... and in reality, how much "reading" is really required to use an audio player?

But when you bring up that beautiful, option-filled context menu in the playlist, it's a playground of options... Maybe things like audio terminology come across in English, but things like "Send to Playlist," "properties," "Create Ogg Preview" are seperate from plugin development and could support some sort of language-pack support, no?

Yeah, foobar is an "advanced audio player," but alot of it's charm comes from the assload of cool things you can do with it that aren't even necessarily targeted at audiophiles.

It's fine to say, "Foobar is worth it!" I think so to. But a potential new user won't know that just by looking at a bunch of English.

Maybe I should be putting my energy into a Japanese foobar page... hmm. But doesn't writing said page and then hosting it at some oddball URL fragment foobar resources even more? It would be neat if there were a way to centralize such documentation... and track it against the English versions of said docs.
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askoff
post May 11 2004, 14:11
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QUOTE (Xenion @ May 10 2004, 08:34 PM)
and btw: translating the preferences would have no sence, because many of the 3rd party plugins would be still in english.

Have you seen Miranda-IM? It's messenger software in Sourceforge.net. It has many plugins and they can be translated also. They can be translated in main program translation file, or separate files. And it works... smile.gif
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Brams
post Jun 2 2006, 23:24
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First: I know, that this is an old thread, but I thinked, that it isn't necessary to create a new thread for it.

Well I want to add my opinion to this topic, only:

1. I think, that multi language support (I mean only the possiblility to create translation files) is very important for any kind of software. Because there are many people, who simply want it. wink.gif

2. The developers haven't to translate the software or to keep the translated files up to date. But, please give the others the possiblility to translate it (likein form, that foobar2000 uses ini-files for it). You haven't to put these translated files into the official foobar package, too, but if a user means, that he needs a translated foobar2000, he could simply download the file from the homepage of the author who wrote the translated file. Then it's only the job of the author to keep his translated file up to date.

I really think, that this would be a good solution!

Edit: I really hope, that you understand all my sentences. smile.gif My English isn't very good...

This post has been edited by Brams: Jun 2 2006, 23:27
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Chronial
post Aug 13 2006, 02:43
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I know the discussion on this topic has rested some time, but I don't think it is closed.
The only real reason I have heard against translation is "We never did something like this and are afraid to do it". I don't need a translation and wouldn't use it if there was one - but if there a people who want a translation and people who are willing to do one, I don't see a good reason not to implement a possibility to translate foobar.

A good example how translations can work in a component-based system is World of Warcraft. It is aviable in multiple languages and there are thousands of components (addons) out there. Most of these components are aviable in english, german and french, others in a lot of other languages ("auctioneer" is aviable in 13 languages). These translations are all very good and there is also no problem with the translation of "technical terms", as the translation of the main-program defines how they are to translate.

I can't see a reason, why this shouldn't work with foobar.
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iOsiris
post Aug 13 2006, 04:17
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I wouldn't support a full out translatoin of the program either. However, tutorials written in other languages may be helpful to some. I'd like to point out that Foobar2000 is already complex for average users who don't take the time to learn/figure out tagz on their own.
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q-stankovic
post Aug 13 2006, 15:27
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It is very funny that i don't know the words in my native language for all the (standard) expressions that are used by foobar or third party plugins. I am too lazy to learn new words so even if my native language would be supported i wouldn't use it. tongue.gif


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jhartmann
post Sep 5 2006, 22:52
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Is foobar2000 for users or only for freaks? However "advanced" it might be -- it's a player, not a tool for full-time audio professionals.

Still most (sic!) of all windows users are not really speaking english (even if they had some lessons at school), and so they just won't ever use an english-only software. So why exclude them?

I read "arguments" like "it's not easy to translate", "others aren't translated, too" or even "it might complicate user experience". You don't mean that seriously, do you? If the english user interface words/phrases go into extra files, it's a matter of hours to translate them. And it's up to the user to stay with the english original (if she/he might think that this is less complicating) or switch to any translation. Untranslated third party stuff? Hell, who cares? If there's demand it will be translated, too. If not, then not. The user can decide if she/he wants to mix a translated foobar with an untranslated plugin (on a translated windows) or if an all-english foobar might serve her/him better.

By the way: Isn't it just reeeealy baaaad sw design to not abstract/seperate ui language stuff from logic?
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FRICSO
post Sep 6 2006, 01:45
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I'm brazilian, and speak portuguese (advanced) and english (basic), translate the foobar, only really helps me, if is FULL translated, including the code line. I know it's really difficult to be done, so I'm reserve me to only dream in this possibility, and explore and edit the config of other in english!!!

only few people of use foobar is latin american, and less so is brazilian!
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...Just Elliott
post Sep 6 2006, 08:41
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QUOTE (FRICSO @ Sep 6 2006, 01:45) *
I'm brazilian, and speak portuguese (advanced) and english (basic), translate the foobar, only really helps me, if is FULL translated, including the code line. I know it's really difficult to be done, so I'm reserve me to only dream in this possibility, and explore and edit the config of other in english!!!

only few people of use foobar is latin american, and less so is brazilian!

Well you've really just said why it's never going to happen: I doubt many brazillians want to use foobar that can't speak english (compared to brazillians who can speak english well enough).


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Chronial
post Sep 6 2006, 08:52
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QUOTE
Well you've really just said why it's never going to happen: I doubt many brazillians want to use foobar that can't speak english (compared to brazillians who can speak english well enough).

I can tell you why it's never going to happen: Everyone is afraid of doing it because noone ever did it before. So instead just doing it one just talks about how translating programs is not possible and how this is not possible in a extensions based setup similar to firefox (which is also not aviable in any other language than english).
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...Just Elliott
post Sep 6 2006, 09:10
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QUOTE (Chronial @ Sep 6 2006, 08:52) *
QUOTE
Well you've really just said why it's never going to happen: I doubt many brazillians want to use foobar that can't speak english (compared to brazillians who can speak english well enough).

I can tell you why it's never going to happen: Everyone is afraid of doing it because noone ever did it before. So instead just doing it one just talks about how translating programs is not possible and how this is not possible in a extensions based setup similar to firefox (which is also not aviable in any other language than english).

Firefox is avaliable in different languages - check your own links before posting! And I think we're getting into conspiracy stuff here... put on your tinfoil hat! laugh.gif


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TrNSZ
post Sep 6 2006, 09:14
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QUOTE (...Just Elliott @ Sep 6 2006, 04:10) *
Firefox is avaliable in different languages - check your own links before posting! And I think we're getting into conspiracy stuff here... put on your tinfoil hat! laugh.gif
You fail completely at humour.
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Squeller
post Sep 6 2006, 09:31
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QUOTE (...Just Elliott @ Sep 5 2006, 23:41) *
Well you've really just said why it's never going to happen: I doubt many brazillians want to use foobar that can't speak english (compared to brazillians who can speak english well enough).
Those must be all the guys who flood international communities with writing spanish. Too often I've read "hey, spanish is the 3rd language on earth, so it's our good right to speak spanish". Deswegen meine ich: Die haben fb2k auf spanisch nicht verdient. Ende. Period.

Sorry people, I doubt that not using fb2k is only because it does not speak your native language. In the real world, fb2k is a geeks toy and this is the legit main reason why people do not use it. Which is alright.

a) The lack of international language support may rather be a welcome barrier?
b) People not willing to learn those few words will not be willing to really learn to handle the player?

This post has been edited by Squeller: Sep 6 2006, 09:44
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gandhi
post Sep 6 2006, 09:36
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QUOTE (upNorth @ May 10 2004, 11:44) *
Personally, I usually find it harder to use software that has been translated. The reason being that the translator has either been trying too hard (invented words or used words that nobody uses), hasn't translated everything, so you end up with mixed language, or has just done a bad job.
just as a specific info for you, there are at least general guidelines in Norway for how to translate computer specific terminology: http://i18n.skolelinux.no/nb/Fellesordl.eng-no.html
That said, i understand the problems connected to foobar2000 translation

This post has been edited by gandhi: Sep 6 2006, 13:13
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...Just Elliott
post Sep 6 2006, 09:38
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QUOTE (TrNSZ @ Sep 6 2006, 09:14) *
QUOTE (...Just Elliott @ Sep 6 2006, 04:10) *
Firefox is avaliable in different languages - check your own links before posting! And I think we're getting into conspiracy stuff here... put on your tinfoil hat! laugh.gif
You fail completely at humour.

No, you do. wink.gif


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david_dl
post Sep 6 2006, 10:46
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QUOTE (...Just Elliott @ Sep 6 2006, 21:38) *
QUOTE (TrNSZ @ Sep 6 2006, 09:14) *

QUOTE (...Just Elliott @ Sep 6 2006, 04:10) *
Firefox is avaliable in different languages - check your own links before posting! And I think we're getting into conspiracy stuff here... put on your tinfoil hat! laugh.gif
You fail completely at humour.

No, you do. wink.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
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molnart
post Sep 6 2006, 13:10
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QUOTE (Squeller @ Sep 6 2006, 10:31) *
b) People not willing to learn those few words will not be willing to really learn to handle the player?

If they want to create advanced TAGZ scripts they need to know basic english too. And if they don't want to customize why don't they just stick with WMP ?
And even if fb2k would be translated more than half of the strings would be still in english because of the plugins.
With some effort you can learn to use the player even if you have almost no english knowledge, as long as you can read the letters (My experience with foreign languages and computers is, that i'm completely failing at russian and asian sites/programs, but anything other i can usually handle).


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kjoonlee
post Sep 6 2006, 13:17
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The "the core changes so fast that nobody can update the translations fast enough" card seemed very apt when releases were coming out as fast as lightning, but it now seems that foobar2000 has matured into a state where releases are few and far between. (A good thing, IMHO.)

Personally I think a localized core might not be a bad thing after all. (Even though I'm definitely going to use the English version.)

PS. It seems that part was removed from the FAQ. /me nods.


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Chronial
post Sep 6 2006, 18:12
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QUOTE
Firefox is avaliable in different languages - check your own links before posting!

That made my day ^^

Please people, try to leave your own POV for one second. There are people who just can't handle languages or simply never did learn any english (this happens in france for example - they think french is the worl language, so no need to learn english biggrin.gif). There is no need to learn any english for Tags oO. All you need is a reference manual in your language, which might be created very fast once foobar has a non english-speaking userbase.

Do you check your own arguments for validity before posting? Foobar does contain a lot of text - have you every looked at the preferences window?
And who the hell spreads this *** about components not beeing translatable? If foobar would be translatable itself and would provide a api that helps you translate your component (to take this strange translation-fear of the devs), all major components would be available in the main languages. I'm not a nativ english speaker myswlf - do you think i'd release a plugin not supporting my nativ language?
Translating programms is not as difficult, proplematic, complicated or whatever you tell. The only thing that prevents translation here is fear and arrogance (after all - everyone who posts in this forum should not have such a big problem with the english language...). Not everyone is as smart as you are.
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pepoluan
post Sep 6 2006, 18:47
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One big problem of translation is the inconsistent string length.

The layout of the preferences page (of each plugin) is usually tuned to the length of the English phrase.

Take, for instance

"Clear playlist upon startup"

if (fully) translated into my native language becomes

"Hapus daftar main pada saat memulai program"

Hmmm... tough.


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