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LAME: different compilers producing significantly different bitstreams, Split from “LAME 3.99 is out”
john33
post Feb 2 2012, 20:35
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Just for the record, Robert is looking at this issue and will be back with something for testing in the not too distant future. wink.gif In the meantime, the higher bitrate is not hurting quality but it may be spending unnecessary bits.


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lvqcl
post Feb 2 2012, 21:10
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QUOTE (john33 @ Feb 2 2012, 23:35) *
Just for the record, Robert is looking at this issue and will be back with something for testing in the not too distant future. wink.gif In the meantime, the higher bitrate is not hurting quality but it may be spending unnecessary bits.


It's somewhere in calc_xmin() (in quantize_pvt.c). Move this function to a new file and compile it with MSVC compiler, and the rest with ICC. wink.gif

This post has been edited by lvqcl: Feb 2 2012, 21:53
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john33
post Feb 2 2012, 23:09
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QUOTE (lvqcl @ Feb 2 2012, 20:10) *
...
It's somewhere in calc_xmin() (in quantize_pvt.c)....

So I believe, but I'll leave that to Robert. wink.gif


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Destroid
post Feb 5 2012, 11:49
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From the sidelines, I found this discussion of the FP rounding and/or compiler-related differences fascinating. Although this was the discussion started regarding LAME 3.99 release I was glad to have read-through it (just like a recent topic about layman's FFT explanation) and wanted to express my appreciation to those involved on the member and developers for sleuthing and posting their information. This is why HA has always rocked for me =)


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antman
post Feb 7 2012, 04:08
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Agreed Destroid. This has been an interesting read. I jumped back to find the start of the latest development.

And with that being said, maybe it's time to split the thread? Little of this thread has been dedicated to the actual quality improvements/unimprovements of Lame 3.99. It's been more about compiler optimizing and compiler output.
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JJZolx
post Feb 7 2012, 04:28
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I'm surprised this thread wasn't split a long time ago. I can't imagine that 99% of users who might see this release announcement and consider updating to 3.99 have either the time or the energy to read through well over 300 posts. I would expect some discussion of new 3.99.x releases and updated Rarewares compiles as they come out, but the minutiae in this thread really belongs in a tech forum.
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DARcode
post Feb 7 2012, 14:15
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The "minutiae" in this thread are actually useful information: the difference in bitrate produced by different compiles might have an impact on quality, still to be determined exactly, and the LAME header issues do have an impact on usability, I'm glad both discussions have been consolidated here, just learn to skip the parts not relevant to you, this isn't a forum for Joe Average anyway.

P.S.
Minutiae is plural, if you wanna show off your Latin at least do it properly.

EDIT: The P.S..

This post has been edited by DARcode: Feb 7 2012, 14:18


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john33
post Feb 7 2012, 14:27
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Robert is currently working on a solution that would make LAME more, or less, "compiler proof", or at least the variations between compilers would become inconsequential. Obviously some testing will be required when he has a solution that is 'fit for purpose' and HA will be the first to know. wink.gif


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apodtele
post Feb 7 2012, 16:24
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QUOTE (john33 @ Feb 7 2012, 08:27) *
Robert is currently working on a solution that would make LAME more, or less, "compiler proof", or at least the variations between compilers would become inconsequential. Obviously some testing will be required when he has a solution that is 'fit for purpose' and HA will be the first to know. wink.gif


This implies that the exact piece of code in question has been identified. Please confirm that it is in quantize_pvt.c and maybe point to a more precise location.
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john33
post Feb 7 2012, 17:13
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There is a test compile (32 bit) now available at: www.rarewares.org/files/mp3/lame3.99.5-Test.zip

While there is a small bit distribution difference between VC and ICL compiles, the final bitrate is the same on the files tested to date.


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john33
post Feb 7 2012, 17:21
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QUOTE (apodtele @ Feb 7 2012, 15:24) *
This implies that the exact piece of code in question has been identified. Please confirm that it is in quantize_pvt.c and maybe point to a more precise location.

EDIT: See Robert's post, below. wink.gif

This post has been edited by john33: Feb 7 2012, 17:41


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robert
post Feb 7 2012, 17:38
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QUOTE (apodtele @ Feb 7 2012, 16:24) *
This implies that the exact piece of code in question has been identified. Please confirm that it is in quantize_pvt.c and maybe point to a more precise location.

The code was quickly identified last week in vbrquantize.c, which was affected by floating point model fast math.

http://lame.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lam...amp;sortby=date (line 436)
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apodtele
post Feb 7 2012, 21:48
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QUOTE (robert @ Feb 7 2012, 11:38) *
The code was quickly identified last week in vbrquantize.c, which was affected by floating point model fast math.

http://lame.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lam...amp;sortby=date (line 436)


Just a couple of jazz albums to re-encode... It does not look like 3.98.4 had this problem, right?
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JJZolx
post Feb 8 2012, 00:24
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Here's that set of files again, encoded using the RareWares 32-bit LAME 3.95.5-test compile. The differences are very small now. lvqcl's compile still produces slightly smaller files, even at the lowest quality levels, but the differences in file size are generally only a fraction of a percent.

CODE

Aerosmith - Sweet Emotion.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 269 228 190 168 149 129 113 100 83
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 264 223 189 168 149 129 112 99 83
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 264 223 188 168 149 129 112 99 83

Allman Brothers - Melissa.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 263 231 202 184 164 142 124 112 90
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 260 227 199 184 164 142 123 111 90
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 259 227 198 184 164 142 123 111 90

Bill Evans - Polka Dots And Moonbeams.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 243 207 178 164 144 124 107 97 80
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 243 205 177 164 144 124 105 96 80
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 243 205 176 164 144 124 105 96 80

Black Keys - Set You Free.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 259 222 186 165 146 128 115 98 79
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 258 219 185 165 146 128 115 98 79
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 258 219 185 165 146 128 115 98 79

Bob Marley - Redemption Song.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 241 211 175 151 129 107 93 82 72
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 228 197 167 151 128 103 86 78 72
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 227 197 167 151 128 103 86 78 72

Count Basie - Lester Leaps In.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 280 244 199 180 158 135 120 107 93
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 258 229 197 179 156 130 112 102 93
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 257 228 196 179 156 130 112 102 93

Cowboy Junkies - Mining For Gold.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 249 208 176 159 139 120 104 93 77
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 249 207 175 159 139 119 102 93 77
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 248 206 174 159 139 119 102 93 77

Del McCoury - Rambling Boy.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 275 238 204 177 155 131 113 104 90
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 266 226 193 177 155 130 111 102 89
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 266 225 192 177 155 130 110 102 90

Dizzy Gillespie - Manteca.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 266 229 198 181 162 139 121 109 94
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 263 224 196 181 162 139 119 108 94
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 262 223 195 181 162 139 119 108 94

Ella Fitzgerald - Anything Goes.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 187 162 142 125 112 97 86 75 63
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 187 159 137 123 109 92 79 71 60
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 187 159 137 123 109 92 79 71 60

George Baker Selection - Little Green Bag.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 268 236 206 190 171 150 133 120 98
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 268 235 205 190 171 150 133 120 98
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 267 235 205 190 171 150 133 120 98

George Jones - She Thinks I Still Care.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 258 209 179 164 146 127 111 102 87
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 259 207 177 164 146 126 109 102 87
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 258 206 177 164 146 126 109 102 87

Jack Johnson - Better Together.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 264 229 195 172 152 130 114 103 87
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 263 227 193 172 152 130 113 103 87
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 262 226 192 172 152 130 113 103 87

Jimmy Cliff - Ska All Over The World.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 258 228 195 179 160 134 115 106 93
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 249 218 191 179 160 133 113 105 93
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 248 217 190 179 160 133 113 105 93

John Coltrane - Giant Steps.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 291 241 205 187 167 145 127 121 102
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 292 238 201 187 167 145 126 121 102
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 291 236 199 187 167 145 126 120 102

Johnny Winter - Mojo Boogie.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 275 238 200 169 149 128 112 97 79
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 260 221 187 169 149 128 110 96 79
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 259 221 187 169 149 128 110 96 79

Kanye West - Gold Digger.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 249 214 182 160 144 127 112 97 77
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 249 213 178 159 143 125 109 96 77
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 247 211 176 159 143 125 108 96 77

Katia Lebeque & the Cleveland Orchestra - Rhapsody in Blue.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 267 234 196 161 140 116 102 91 86
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 247 210 178 159 135 108 91 83 82
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 247 210 178 159 135 108 91 83 82

Leo Kottke - Jesus Maria.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 240 210 185 165 145 121 103 96 87
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 236 204 178 165 144 118 98 94 86
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 236 204 177 165 144 118 98 94 86

Liszt.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 283 245 183 156 136 119 111 103 101
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 257 208 172 149 125 97 82 76 83
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 257 207 172 149 125 97 82 76 83

Lotus - Sea Of Tranquility.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 231 196 166 145 128 110 96 86 73
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 229 192 160 142 124 102 88 79 69
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 228 191 160 142 124 103 88 79 69

Marcos Valle - Para Os Filhos De Abraao.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 261 222 187 167 148 128 114 101 82
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 261 221 186 167 148 128 113 101 81
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 260 220 186 167 148 128 113 101 81

Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 260 227 193 169 148 128 114 97 79
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 259 224 191 169 148 127 113 96 79
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 258 223 190 169 148 127 113 96 79

Ottmar Liebert - August Moon.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 300 255 222 202 182 158 136 130 107
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 299 248 218 202 181 157 134 129 107
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 298 246 216 202 181 157 134 129 107

Peter Tosh - Get Up, Stand Up.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 281 251 220 200 178 152 134 124 107
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 277 247 217 201 178 151 131 124 107
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 276 246 216 200 177 151 131 123 106

Pointer Sisters - Fire.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 264 230 195 169 149 128 112 102 89
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 261 226 192 169 148 126 110 101 89
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 261 225 191 169 148 126 110 101 89

Psychedelic Furs - Love My Way.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 267 225 183 164 145 126 111 98 81
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 262 220 182 164 145 125 110 98 81
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 261 219 181 164 145 125 110 97 81

Rolling Stones - Street Fighting Man.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 270 235 206 192 172 148 123 112 90
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 259 232 205 192 171 148 119 112 90
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 259 231 204 192 171 147 119 112 90

Shirley Bassey - Moonraker.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 264 229 198 178 157 136 119 103 81
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 261 225 194 177 157 135 118 103 80
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 261 225 194 177 157 135 118 103 80

Smiths - Please, Please, Please, Let Me Get What I Want.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 271 246 217 195 173 150 133 105 78
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 271 246 217 195 173 150 132 105 78
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 271 246 217 195 173 150 132 105 78

Steely Dan - Black Friday.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 266 231 196 174 152 129 115 103 85
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 266 231 196 174 152 128 113 102 85
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 266 231 195 174 152 128 113 102 85

Stevie Ray Vaughan - The House Is Rockin'.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 262 231 201 170 150 130 115 101 83
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 261 230 200 170 150 130 115 100 83
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 261 229 199 170 150 130 115 100 83

Sublime - Badfish.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 280 242 204 182 161 139 123 113 94
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 276 237 202 182 161 139 122 113 94
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 275 237 201 182 161 139 122 113 94

Thelonious Monk - Ruby, My Dear.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 229 201 174 153 135 110 94 86 85
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 226 196 166 150 132 100 80 75 80
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 226 196 166 150 132 101 80 75 80

Tomita - Introduction And Dance Of The Firebird.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 250 225 197 165 141 113 97 86 81
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 237 209 182 164 139 107 88 80 78
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 236 209 182 164 139 107 88 79 78

U2 - Bullet The Blue Sky.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 256 224 192 168 148 127 113 99 79
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 255 222 190 168 148 127 113 99 79
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 255 222 190 168 148 127 113 99 79

Van Morrison - Moondance.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 259 225 193 174 155 133 116 105 87
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 255 218 189 174 155 133 114 105 87
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 254 218 188 174 155 133 114 105 87

Will Ackerman - Abide The Winter.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 255 230 200 168 143 113 95 87 80
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 244 216 186 167 142 108 88 82 78
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 244 215 186 167 141 108 88 82 78

Yngwie Malmsteen - Leviathan.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 271 228 189 167 146 127 112 96 81
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 268 222 185 166 146 126 111 96 81
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 268 222 185 166 146 126 111 96 81

Yo-Yo Ma - Boccherini - Cello Concerto No. 7 in G major, G480 I. Allegro.wav
-V0 -V1 -V2 -V3 -V4 -V5 -V6 -V7 -V8
3.99.4 (RareWares) 250 223 189 165 143 118 101 91 83
3.99.5-test (RareWares) 239 209 180 164 141 114 95 88 82
3.99.4 (lvqcl) 239 209 180 164 141 114 95 87 82

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halb27
post Feb 9 2012, 10:56
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I checked Alex B's Liszt sample, and 3.99.5 behaves nearly exactly as lvql's MSV10 compile bitratewise (208 kbps for-V1, and 97 kbps for -V5).
I also checked the bitrate distribution for -V5, and the Encspot result looks pretty much the same Alex B gave us.

Thank you, robert.

Oops, sorry, I din't see JJZolx had the sample in his test.

This post has been edited by halb27: Feb 9 2012, 11:27


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Kilu
post Feb 10 2012, 17:46
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This thread was an interesting read.

So just to be clear, this is now resolved? Should I grab the 3.99.5-test from RareWares, or wait for 3.99.5 proper?

Another thing I'm wondering, I saw some encoding speed differences earlier in the original thread this was split from.
Was there encoding speed differences with 3.99.5-test and 3.99.4 (lvqcl), how about 32bit vs 64bit builds?
Or was that stuff just completely unrelated?


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john33
post Feb 10 2012, 18:27
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QUOTE (Kilu @ Feb 10 2012, 16:46) *
This thread was an interesting read.

So just to be clear, this is now resolved? Should I grab the 3.99.5-test from RareWares, or wait for 3.99.5 proper?

Another thing I'm wondering, I saw some encoding speed differences earlier in the original thread this was split from.
Was there encoding speed differences with 3.99.5-test and 3.99.4 (lvqcl), how about 32bit vs 64bit builds?
Or was that stuff just completely unrelated?

I would be inclined to wait for the full release, if I were you. There could be further changes until then, but if you feel inclined to test, please go ahead. wink.gif

The speed stuff was unrelated, IRRC.


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antman
post Feb 11 2012, 02:37
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Kilu, in summary, the encoding speed differences were between 3.98 and 3.99. 3.99 encoded slower than 3.98. Through compiler optimizing 3.99's speed was brought up to par with 3.98.

Sure there is going to be encoding speed differences between 3.99.5-test (ICL), 3.99.4 (MSVS2010), 32 and 64-bit builds, but that's not what's on trial right now. What's on trial right now is the output between all.
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Kilu
post Feb 11 2012, 03:25
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Alrighty, thanks guys.
I think I'll wait for the full release since I'm not in any kind of hurry, might as well wait a bit. smile.gif


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john33
post Feb 13 2012, 10:21
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3.99.5 test 2 on the link below fixes the decoding regression:

http://www.rarewares.org/files/mp3/lame3.99.5-Test2.zip

smile.gif


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psycho
post Feb 15 2012, 21:54
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3.99.5 is out, compiles anyone? smile.gif


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lvqcl
post Feb 15 2012, 22:06
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There's still no mention of 3.99.5 at http://sourceforge.net/projects/lame/files/lame/3.99/ and in the changelog
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john33
post Feb 15 2012, 23:28
Post #73


xcLame and OggDropXPd Developer


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QUOTE (psycho @ Feb 15 2012, 20:54) *

That log is incomplete as the release has not yet been made. It's work in progress. wink.gif


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John
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My compiles and utilities are at http://www.rarewares.org/
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