IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
MiniDisc: Optical to Optical ?
Xrcr9709
post Nov 25 2012, 14:05
Post #1





Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 70735



Hello,

I have sond MiniDiscs that I would like to archive in .wav fies (or .flac, whatever).
My soundcard is Asus Xonar Essence SXT witch includ of TOSLINK input with a SPDIF adapter.
If I manage to get a MiniDisc with optical output ...

Basically, I just need to connect output to input and then hit record in some software ? (Audacity, Sound Forge) as I would do with any analog recording but the recording will be digital ?
Or does it work another way ?


Thank you for informations.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
punkrockdude
post Nov 25 2012, 14:07
Post #2





Group: Members
Posts: 244
Joined: 21-February 05
Member No.: 20022



I think MiniDisc players has a copy protection when recording digital to digital but maybe that is only when you record using TOSLINK optical from one MiniDisc to another Minidisc recorder. Regards.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Xrcr9709
post Nov 25 2012, 20:20
Post #3





Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 70735



Even if the content is not copyrighted ? (I approximately home made recording ?)
Thank you.

But I didn't get answer about my original question yet.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Nov 25 2012, 20:45
Post #4





Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



Optical out is rare but has existed on a few portable MiniDisc machines. Keep in mind the native signal on the disc itself isn't a PCM .wav file, it is a lossy format called ATRAC, so you have undergone a conversion from the ATRAC file to S/PDIF when you use that optical out. I guess that might be better, in theory, than fully converting to analog before you digitize to your format of choice, however in real world use, considering for example the limitations of the microphone and microphone preamp you used to make your own recordings, I doubt it makes a big difference.

The copy protection scheme is called SCMS and Sony made some compromises and concessions in the last few year(s) of MiniDisc production which made it nicer for consumers to duplicate stuff, but I don't remember the details. Finding a later production deck might therefore be worth looking into if you are dead set on not going through analog, which I think you should try before you dismiss it.

http://www.minidisc.org/faq_sec_6.html

This may help too (use the USB to send the file to your computer):
http://www.fixya.com/support/t171670-save_...pc_as_wav_files

This post has been edited by mzil: Nov 25 2012, 20:58
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Xrcr9709
post Nov 25 2012, 22:12
Post #5





Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 70735



What I'm not sure to understand:
- If the sound on the disc is ATRAC (which I wasn't aware of), if I record if analogically or numerically, both method will start with ATRAC conversion anyway ?

This:
QUOTE
If you buy a portable Hi-MD minidisc recorder, you can use the USB connection to transfer the songs from your Minidiscs into Sonicstage (Sony's software). From Sonicstage you can export the songs as WAV. This process is so much quicker and free of SCMS hassles.


looks like what I've always dreamed of when I was frequently MDs.
I'll see ifI can find a functional Hi-MD with adaptor and software.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
saratoga
post Nov 25 2012, 23:08
Post #6





Group: Members
Posts: 4968
Joined: 2-September 02
Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (Xrcr9709 @ Nov 25 2012, 17:12) *
What I'm not sure to understand:
- If the sound on the disc is ATRAC (which I wasn't aware of), if I record if analogically or numerically, both method will start with ATRAC conversion anyway ?


Yes, as outputting a compressed file to the DAC or optical out would just give static. It must be decoded to produce audio.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Arnold B. Kruege...
post Nov 26 2012, 03:34
Post #7





Group: Members
Posts: 3797
Joined: 29-October 08
From: USA, 48236
Member No.: 61311



QUOTE (saratoga @ Nov 25 2012, 17:08) *
QUOTE (Xrcr9709 @ Nov 25 2012, 17:12) *
What I'm not sure to understand:
- If the sound on the disc is ATRAC (which I wasn't aware of), if I record if analogically or numerically, both method will start with ATRAC conversion anyway ?


Yes, as outputting a compressed file to the DAC or optical out would just give static. It must be decoded to produce audio.


Back in the day I ran bench tests of a number of MD players and the digital outputs carried standard PCM, readily decodable by any reasonable DAC. However, the protection bit was on and some digital inputs would mute rather than accept it.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Nov 26 2012, 14:03
Post #8


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5139
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



I don't think many sound cards care about SCMS, so there should be no problem recording the digital output from an MD deck into a PC.

IIRC perversely, SCSM is (was!) a problem home recordings - I'm fairly sure that on some MD decks, if you made an analogue-in recording, you could only make one generation copy from it digitally, and then no more digital copies from that copy. Or something. Heck, it was a very long time ago!

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Arnold B. Kruege...
post Nov 26 2012, 14:36
Post #9





Group: Members
Posts: 3797
Joined: 29-October 08
From: USA, 48236
Member No.: 61311



QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Nov 26 2012, 08:03) *
I don't think many sound cards care about SCMS, so there should be no problem recording the digital output from an MD deck into a PC.


Back in the day, one company that seemed to be fairly religious about honoring the protect bit in SP/DIF streams was named Creative Labs. In those days the pretty much owned the consumer sound card market.

I used a lot of M-Audio cards which being *professionsl* gave you the option so I personally had few problems, but I had a lot of clients who were using consumer gear and had the problem.

QUOTE
IIRC perversely, SCSM is (was!) a problem home recordings - I'm fairly sure that on some MD decks, if you made an analogue-in recording, you could only make one generation copy from it digitally, and then no more digital copies from that copy. Or something. Heck, it was a very long time ago!


That seems to agree with my also somewhat foggy memories of "the good old days" which really weren't!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Michaja
post Nov 26 2012, 16:39
Post #10





Group: Members
Posts: 2
Joined: 26-November 12
Member No.: 104780



QUOTE (Xrcr9709 @ Nov 25 2012, 22:12) *
QUOTE
If you buy a portable Hi-MD minidisc recorder, you can use the USB connection to transfer the songs from your Minidiscs into Sonicstage (Sony's software). From Sonicstage you can export the songs as WAV. This process is so much quicker and free of SCMS hassles.

looks like what I've always dreamed of when I was frequently MDs.
I'll see ifI can find a functional Hi-MD with adaptor and software.

I'm not sure this works. Sonicstage was a DRM monster when I used to use minidiscs. You could only "import" those tracks you "exported" from the very same computer, making the whole process utterly useless for home recordings. If I remember correct, you couldn't even delete tracks on the (Sony) player, that where "exported" from a computer. But this may have changed with newer versions of the software. I suggest you find out before buying anything.
I used to import recorded minidiscs using a Yamaha MD deck and a Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS, connected via TOSLINK. It worked fairly well, except you don't get any track information, so you have to cut your tracks manually. I never had trouble with the copy protect bit, but I used only first generation recordings.

This post has been edited by Michaja: Nov 26 2012, 16:39
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
mzil
post Nov 26 2012, 19:29
Post #11





Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 5-August 07
Member No.: 45913



QUOTE (mzil @ Nov 25 2012, 15:45) *
The copy protection scheme is called SCMS and Sony made some compromises and concessions in the last few year(s) of MiniDisc production which made it nicer for consumers to duplicate stuff, but I don't remember the details. Finding a later production deck might therefore be worth looking into if you are dead set on not going through analog, which I think you should try before you dismiss it.


Update: With the release of the MZRH1 in 2006 (ended in 2011) and the Sony supplied software it came with (Sonicstage V3.4), file copying was finally allowed, via USB, both from and to one's computer.

MZRH1 pdf manual

Regarding the optical out, which only a few portables even had (although most had "in"), the limitations were the same as consumer DAT machines, where analog in recordings (mic or line in) were allowed one generation of digital copying to an outboard device that also observed the (consumer) SCMS protocol, but digitally made recordings were prohibited. The details are explained here:

http://www.minidisc.org/faq_sec_6.html#SCMS

There were also outboard SCMS stripper boxes (ex. Midiman CO3 ?), professional decks that were more lenient than the consumer gear, and glitches and hacks for some models to get around SCMS. such as this (not that I can vouch for it working).

This post has been edited by mzil: Nov 26 2012, 19:30
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Xrcr9709
post Nov 26 2012, 23:35
Post #12





Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 70735



QUOTE (Michaja @ Nov 26 2012, 17:39) *
I'm not sure this works. Sonicstage was a DRM monster when I used to use minidiscs. You could only "import" those tracks you "exported" from the very same computer, making the whole process utterly useless for home recordings.


I remember that, but I think the software was "Open MG Jukebox". I had bought one of the first MDs to announce this functionnaly. I immediately saw it was total bullshit from homemade records point of view. And I had noticed that they tended to remove ports here and there and the ergonomy was getting worse and worse for the sake of tortured designs. (In that time I was also still listening a little bit to the advice of the shop dealers who could tell you that you can get to the moon and make coffee or what ever your wanted with any technological device they had to sell. So I was a bit angry too.) So I went back and traded it for the previous model which was purely analogic.


Right now I have ordered this on eBay: http://www.sony.co.uk/support/en/product/MZ-NH700/updates
I see that it's download have some interesting promising items (at least based on their names):
- SonicStage CP (Version 4.3) Download Program.
Software update procedure , 15/07/2008
- WAV Conversion Tool for MZ-NH1 / NH900/ NHF800/ NH700 and NH600 (EU)
Software update procedure , 17/06/2007

So I hope it will work fine ! (I hope this "Software update procedure" will not be a new cause of disppointment about MDs)

This post has been edited by Xrcr9709: Nov 26 2012, 23:37
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Michaja
post Nov 29 2012, 12:10
Post #13





Group: Members
Posts: 2
Joined: 26-November 12
Member No.: 104780



QUOTE (Xrcr9709 @ Nov 26 2012, 23:35) *
I remember that, but I think the software was "Open MG Jukebox". I had bought one of the first MDs to announce this functionnaly. I immediately saw it was total bullshit from homemade records point of view.
Yeah, that thing was awful!

I use SonicStage CP 4.3 from time to time (just to export to a MZ-N710) and finally looked into the manual. And there it says:
QUOTE
The following tracks on a Net MD may not be able to be transferred back to My Library on your computer:
    Tracks transferred from another computer
    Tracks recorded using a device other than a computer (for example, an MD deck)

So much for awful, but under "Using a Hi-MD" it says
QUOTE
Tracks recorded on a conventional MD device (marked with ) can be imported into My Library.
Note: Can be used with an MD-importing compatible device.

But the manual of the MZ-NH700 says (p. 101)
QUOTE
You cannot import tracks that were recorder in a Net MD mode to your computer, or tracks that have been recorded on a device that does not support Hi-MD mode.
... back to awful sad.gif

I really hope i'm wrong, but my guess is that Sony want's you to spend more money to copy your own redordings. Would be nice if you keep us informed, though.

This post has been edited by Michaja: Nov 29 2012, 12:11
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Xrcr9709
post Dec 4 2012, 23:14
Post #14





Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 70735



Oops! I had not noticed there are drivers that required Win XP. I'll have to try with virtual machine ... don't know when I'll be ready ...
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Xrcr9709
post Dec 5 2012, 02:03
Post #15





Group: Members
Posts: 64
Joined: 16-June 09
Member No.: 70735



Not working ... at least for now but it's terribly confusing ...

First I had to install a Virtual Box virtual machine with my old WinXP license.
Then I installed the MD drivers, SonicStage 4.3 and "WAV conversion tool" found through Sony's page about this MD model.

SonicStage 4.3 seems to look a lot like "Open MG Jukebox" in terms of functionalities and it won't copy tracks from my "good old MDs" to hardrive. I get some message that says that for some poorly explained reasons this transfers are not possible with my computer or my MD. (I guess it would not "copy" them but actually "transfer" them, which is not what I want. But I recorded random sounds with my "classic MD" on a remaining blank disk to do some tests.)

So, SonicStage currently doesn't help me getting any kind file out of my MDs.


"WAV conversion tool" conversion tools say that I need to have SonicStage 2.1 or higher ... I can only find upgrades for SonicStage 2.x, not complete installations, and I read that a lot of people have problems with it.
I got a CD with the Hi-MD recorder, it has SonicStage 2.0 but it looks like I can't update it ... When trying to transfert, it says approximately the same as version 4.3, but with just the strict minimum of words to compose a sentence.

This post has been edited by Xrcr9709: Dec 5 2012, 02:12
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st September 2014 - 10:00