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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 01:11
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http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=15985&hl=

Sorry if this seems a crass question but...given the extent of the corporate hospitality extended to HA staff recently by Ahead (Nero), how can we be sure of unbiased viewpoints on this forum?[QUOTE]

This post has been edited by Heaven17: Dec 3 2003, 01:16
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tigre
post Dec 3 2003, 01:27
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 3 2003, 02:11 AM)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=portal

Sorry if this seems a crass question but...given the extent of the corporate hospitality extended to HA staff recently by Ahead (Nero), how can we be sure of unbiased viewpoints on this forum?

- Because everyone can say what (s)he wants unless rules are violated including offering his/her unbiased viewpoints

- Because your assumption/observation might be wrong (I haven't got a full version of nero for free yet)

- Because many people here are curious, want to find out the truth, rater test themselves then believe

- Because Ahead is a profit-oriented company and here will be always some people with some kind of open-source philosophy and/or paranoia against big, monopolistic companies like Ahead headbang.gif who will ensure an unbiased viewpoint. wink.gif

- ...

Edit:

OTH: From a philosophical point of view:

Unbiased viewpoints can not exist.


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tev777
post Dec 3 2003, 01:29
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The only unbiased opinion you need is your own. If you doubt the validity of a given statement you can test it yourself and form your own conclusion. Trust no one! ph34r.gif


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Dologan
post Dec 3 2003, 01:32
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huh.gif
What partiality can there be in reviewing a product? JohnV's review was quite objective and to the point, simply describing the features of the program. I did not even see him praise it at all.
Even if he had presented a biased viewpoint, so what? Everyone's opinion is biased to some extent and is entitled to express it here as long as it is founded and doesn't go against the rules.
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Audible!
post Dec 3 2003, 01:35
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I for one welcome the comments of Ahead staff here, particularly in light of their efforts made WRT compression in Nero.

As tev said in a very Mulderish fashion, if you doubt the veracity of the information presented by anyone associated with a the company you are always free to test it for yourself.
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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 01:36
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I (quote) couldn't give a rat's ass (unquote) about open source, paranoia, whatever...All I want is an assurance that whatever advice I get from this forum is untainted (at least by the admins or mods) by selfinterest/commercial interest or whatever. If this is not possible then, fine, at least I know where I stand... tongue.gif
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JohnV
post Dec 3 2003, 01:47
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 3 2003, 02:36 AM)
I (quote) couldn't give a rat's ass (unquote) about open source, paranoia, whatever...All I want is an assurance that whatever advice I get from this forum is untainted (at least by the admins or mods) by selfinterest/commercial interest or whatever. If this is not possible then, fine, at least I know where I stand... tongue.gif

Well.. I suppose you have to use then completely different settings for XviD also, because these must be completely biased:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=158748

rolleyes.gif

Anyway, I haven't exactly hidden the fact that I've helped Ivan in his audio encoder tweaking, but I have done that like the last 4 years or something...
Not to mention other codecs like: Lame, MPC, Vorbis, even TAC...

Everybody is free to say their opinion, but according to HA's policy, claims need a bit more heavier evidence. You will find all kinds of users and opinions from this forum. Thus this forum doesn't have one exact viewpoint. People may have viewpoints, but HA forum doesn't, because the forum consists of the users.

Well.. we can offer "HA recommended Lame compiles and settings",but these are majority opinions reached by doing extensive group testing openly with the help of many forum members.


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tigre
post Dec 3 2003, 01:49
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 3 2003, 02:36 AM)
I (quote) couldn't give a rat's ass (unquote) about open source, paranoia, ...

I wasn't talking about you. I just tried to say that ppl here cover a wide spectrum of viewpoints.
QUOTE
whatever...All I want is an assurance that whatever advice I get from this forum is untainted (at least by the admins or mods) by selfinterest/commercial interest or whatever.

Every single thing one does is motivated by selfinterest. No? I help others because ...
... it gives me a good feeling, so I do it because of the feeling. If it gave me a bad feeling I'd do something else.

Less philosophic answer: If you read through "How can I ..." threads, you'll notice that most of the time different people give different answers. Depending on your needs you can choose then what's best for you (or even if you want to test yourself before choosing). I don't think you can get a better assurance than this.


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Ivan Dimkovic
post Dec 3 2003, 01:54
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Ok...

[company mode switched off]

IMHO, HA is one of the rare forums with very nice terms of use that praise usage of scientific method and rigor in discussion and product/technology evaluation.

This means that nobody here is going to "praise" or give twisted opinion about any product whatsoever, including Ahead/Nero products and developed technolgies.

Scientific methods like ABX double-blind listening tests, sticking to pure facts without involving too much other things, etc.. are what make this forum pretty unique and my favorite technology forum long before I started working for Ahead.

Performance tests are performed on a regular basis (thanks Roberto), I hope this will be extended for the video side as well - and people will not twist the results in any way.

[company mode switched on again smile.gif ]

And, of course - me and my colleagues will make sure that Nero Digital will be the edge of most advanced technology development smile.gif All questions and requests / comments can be made here and I'll be happy to help as much as possible.
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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 02:04
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Oh shit....I wasn't meaning to offend anybody... rolleyes.gif

I'm just a bit concerned at the way Ahead products seem to have been plugged on this forum recently, and the way anyone dissing them is jumped on from a great height....maybe it's my imagination....

Sorry for any INCORRECT assumptions on my part... smile.gif
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tigre
post Dec 3 2003, 02:12
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 3 2003, 03:04 AM)
Ahead products <sinp>
the way anyone dissing them is jumped on from a great height

Interesting. I haven't noticed something like this. Could you please tell where exactly this happened?


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rjamorim
post Dec 3 2003, 02:13
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QUOTE (tigre @ Dec 2 2003, 11:12 PM)
I haven't noticed something like this. Could you please tell where exactly this happened?

An example: The thread where one of the users (Numlock? I don't remember) mentioned his bad experiences with Ahead's support.


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Ivan Dimkovic
post Dec 3 2003, 02:15
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But you are not offending anyone, come on smile.gif

QUOTE
I'm just a bit concerned at the way Ahead products seem to have been plugged on this forum recently, and the way anyone dissing them is jumped on from a great height....maybe it's my imagination....


Well...

I hope this is not happening - if someone is "jumping on" it would be tolerated only if backed by claims that can be verified by using scientifically valid methods... so, don't be affraid - though, I can't speak for anybody else, in my opinion - nobody is trying to make any product/option favorite on HA - or some kind of "HA choice"

I mean, from the audio side - Only Nero indeed currently, for example, supports HE-AAC that happened to won the listening test.. mentioning that in a discussion, for example, is nothing "bieased" - it is currently a fact - now, if some other solution appears and wins any future test (and we are working hard for that not to happen smile.gif - people won't twist the results or something like that - the "truth" of audio compression will be here, regardless of who the "winner" is.
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JohnV
post Dec 3 2003, 02:20
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Dec 3 2003, 03:13 AM)
QUOTE (tigre @ Dec 2 2003, 11:12 PM)
I haven't noticed something like this. Could you please tell where exactly this happened?

An example: The thread where one of the users (Numlock? I don't remember) mentioned his bad experiences with Ahead's support.

I suppose you mean this highly intelligent report by Gambit (Burrrn developer)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=12880


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Dibrom
post Dec 3 2003, 02:21
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QUOTE (rjamorim @ Dec 2 2003, 05:13 PM)
QUOTE (tigre @ Dec 2 2003, 11:12 PM)
I haven't noticed something like this. Could you please tell where exactly this happened?

An example: The thread where one of the users (Numlock? I don't remember) mentioned his bad experiences with Ahead's support.

People coming to HA to bash other companies in a fashion akin to "whining" has never been looked upon favorably here. There have been times when people have submitted news items to this effect (which had no relation to Ahead Software) which were not allowed to be posted.

We're here to share information, to learn, and to discuss things in a constructive fashion, not to cater to childish ranting and complaints.

Having said that, if it appears that Ahead is looked upon more favorably in these forums, part of that is probably due to the fact that there is also a large amount of Ahead bashing from certain vocal users on the board here, most of which is completely unjustified considering the lengths which Ahead has gone to interact with a community like this and how much they have done to attempt to provide a better experience for people like us.

If you honestly want to defend these kinds of people (you know who they are....) and portray some of the HA staff in a negative light in defending Ahead or at the very least in casting doubt upon the manner in which some of these other people go about discussion or make claims, that's your right, but it doesn't seem to take into consideration the principles upon which this community was founded or the atmosphere that we've always been trying to promote here.
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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 02:26
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QUOTE
I suppose you mean this highly intelligent report by Gambit (Burrrn developer)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=12880


Damn! Yes, that was the one in particular I was thinking of...

The point still stands, though, I think...there seems to be a lack of tolerance of criticism of Ahead and its products....
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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 02:36
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QUOTE
Having said that, if it appears that Ahead is looked upon more favorably in these forums, part of that is probably due to the fact that there is also a large amount of Ahead bashing from certain vocal users on the board here, most of which is completely unjustified considering the lengths which Ahead has gone to interact with a community like this and how much they have done to attempt to provide a better experience for people like us.


I have ZERO interest in looking on Ahead either favorably or unfavorably. I have no axe to grind whatsoever. I'm just concerned for HA's reputation as an impartial resource, as that IS in my interest, my own credibility is at stake... sad.gif
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JohnV
post Dec 3 2003, 02:37
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 3 2003, 03:26 AM)
QUOTE
I suppose you mean this highly intelligent report by Gambit (Burrrn developer)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=12880


Damn! Yes, that was the one in particular I was thinking of...

The point still stands, though, I think...there seems to be a lack of tolerance of criticism of Ahead and its products....

If the criticism is given in decent way, I don't believe anybody here interferes. On the contrary. Ahead must be also interested in reading fair and justified criticism, because that helps their development. But if the criticism is in the similar form as Gambit's message, it doesn't meet HA's ideology in any way and doesn't help anybody.


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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 02:57
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QUOTE
...most of which is completely unjustified considering the lengths which Ahead has gone to interact with a community like this and how much they have done to attempt to provide a better experience for people like us.


I'm sorry to appear as a miserable old cynic, but could you specify the lengths to which Ahead have gone to provide us with a "better experience?" Were they entirely acting through altruistic motives?

edit: I guess that's an unfair question, as a commercial enterprise with shareholders, then of course they will act in their own best interests, as they are legally obliged to do, whether that coincides with the interests of "people like us" or not....

but going back to my original point....are HA's admins and mods completely impartial...? an honourable "yes" or "no" will do... ph34r.gif

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Ivan Dimkovic
post Dec 3 2003, 03:11
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QUOTE
I'm sorry to appear as a miserable old cynic, but could you specify the lengths to which Ahead have gone to provide us with a "better experience?" Were they entirely acting through altruistic motives?


I think I can answer this one smile.gif

No - the motives were certainly not "entirely altruistic" because Ahead AG and Inc is not registered as a charity fund, or some religious mission / NGO.

But, however, we really tried to be as altruistic as possible, from the scientific point of view - Ahead adopted latest technologies even before they were standardized and, also, people from the company communicate on message boards, listen for suggestions and constructive criticism - and, yes, answer all kinds of technical quaestion. As my powers go, I try to help in all fields I can.

Also, HE-AAC decoder developed in Ahead was relesed under the GPL license, which is as altruistic as it can get smile.gif

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Audible!
post Dec 3 2003, 03:24
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QUOTE
...are HA's admins and mods completely impartial...? an honourable "yes" or "no" will do...

Who do you want to answer this question? The mods and admins?

Why not try clicking on the mod's and admin's names and reviewing their posting history?
That way you can judge for yourself.

I believe it is practically impossible for any single human being to be "completely impartial" on almost any given issue.

Do the mod's and admin's here try to sell everyone on Nero?
Nope.
Is a new version or update of Nero of interest to many people engaged in A/V compression?
Yes.
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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 03:27
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Thanks Ivan, you've pretty much explained where Ahead are coming from which seems clear enough....it's HA's official (or indeed unofficial) position I still don't quite understand....
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Heaven17
post Dec 3 2003, 03:28
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QUOTE
Who do you want to answer this question? The mods and admins?


Yes...please

This post has been edited by Heaven17: Dec 3 2003, 03:29
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Dibrom
post Dec 3 2003, 03:54
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 2 2003, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE
Who do you want to answer this question? The mods and admins?


Yes...please

This thread is starting to get boring.

We've already answered this question, and there has been more than enough clarification in total.

Are you actually listening to what is being said, or are you just interested in casting doubt indefinitely?
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JohnV
post Dec 3 2003, 04:08
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QUOTE (Heaven17 @ Dec 3 2003, 03:57 AM)
but going back to my original point....are HA's admins and mods completely impartial...? an honourable "yes" or "no" will do... ph34r.gif

Am I personally "completely impartial". Probably not, who is?
Am I trying to make sure that all opinions which are given good and sain reasoning get fair chance in these forums to appear, yes. Do I favor blind testing when ever possible, yes.

You could ask Stux and Shitowax (or visit 3ivx alpha development forum) to whom I notified and tested them their 3ivx 4.5 audio decoder problems, when their multichannel mapping was messed up or when their decoder couldn't decode implicit sbr files correctly, or recently notified them about xvid b-frame decoding problem in their video decoder. 3ivx happens to be one of the competitors of Nero Digital. But yeah, I am currently very interested in MPEG4/7/21, and I am interested helping its interoperability where I can, because working interoperability is useful for everybody developing and implementing MPEG4 technology.

What about are there different "biasings" in the HA staff - definitely yes.
Weird that nobody screamed whether I am biased towards XviD, when I gave my XviD encoder setting recommendations?

One thing which we all know is that competition drives development and technology forward. HA is very much trying to advance development in the areas it covers, so, you can figure out yourself, if HA is trying to overall encourage competition, or supress it.

I wanted HA to be the first site to present the Recode2 to public. However I didn't prepare any ready made praising article. I just want that HA keeps in the frontline of development and news, and is among the first to cover recent happenings when possible, offering news before sites like Afterdawn, cd-freaks, Doom9, Digital Digest, etc etc.


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