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Topic: Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed (Read 10287 times) previous topic - next topic
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Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Hi All

I am hoping someone can help me with the last question I have before buying an AVR receiver. It is my intent to buy a receiver around the GBP300 level for general use. My main priority is listening to stereo music, so I want to be sure I can turn off all EQ / processing for this purpose. I have read some posts that suggest this can actually be quite hard to do. Currently I'm considering the Pioneer VSX924K and the Denon AVRS2100W. Does anyone know how to COMPLETELY turn off all signal-altering-wizardry with either of these? (N.B. Please don't suggest I buy a stereo amp. I want a receiver for the features, and I am a fully paid up member of the "all amps sound about the same" club.)

Thanks in advance.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #1 –
Quote from: AlephCantor on
Hi All

I am hoping someone can help me with the last question I have before buying an AVR receiver. It is my intent to buy a receiver around the GBP300 level for general use. My main priority is listening to stereo music, so I want to be sure I can turn off all EQ / processing for this purpose. I have read some posts that suggest this can actually be quite hard to do. Currently I'm considering the Pioneer VSX924K and the Denon AVRS2100W. Does anyone know how to COMPLETELY turn off all signal-altering-wizardry with either of these? (N.B. Please don't suggest I buy a stereo amp. I want a receiver for the features, and I am a fully paid up member of the "all amps sound about the same" club.)


Most AVRs have the ready ability to turn off all processing for stereo inputs and have only the L & R output channels operating.

(1) Set the L & R speakers to Large to bypass the crossovers and bass management.

(2) Don't engage or set up YPAO, MCACC or Audyssey speaker/room  correction.  They are usually off by default.

(3) Make sure that any digital input that you may be using is receives only a plain stereo PCM signal.

(4) Don't turn on any sound field Enhancements.

(5) It is possible that there are operational modes that turn one or more of the above off. They usually have words like Direct in them.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #2 –
I got a Pioneer, and back about 6-7 years ago when I was looking for an AVR I tried an Onkyo SR-606 (boy did I dodge that bullet), and a Harman-Kardon AVR254 (I can't overstate how much I hate HK receivers just from that experience). Of the 3 brands, the HK apparently did not have a way to disable some proprietary HK processing, the other 2 did have a "pure" mode. On the Pioneer is called Pure Direct. I think most brands have it. That was only one of HK's things that annoyed me, there were many other things way worse, btw. It also could not pass through HDMI video, which meant no RGB video, which meant if you connected a PC to it and even a PS3 it would look like crap if your monitor could do RGB. The other 2 passed it just fine (I even used non-standard video 1920x1200 resolution).

Denon should also have a "pure" mode, btw, it's pretty easy to find that info on forums like AVS, since people there are more "pure" obsessed than around these lairs. BTW, I don't use the Pure Direct on my Pioneer though, your speakers and room affect the sound the most. I prefer the way it sounds after the automatic calibration.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
(3) Make sure that any digital input that you may be using is receives only a plain stereo PCM signal.


Thank you! This is all extremely helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to enumerate all that. Would you mind expanding on the "plain stereo PCM signal" - I'm not sure what that means. If it matters, I am initially planning to plug an iPod Classic with ALAC files stored on it straight into the USB on the AVR. (I'm sure the Denon I mentioned is compatible with this setup, not 100% that the Pioneer is.)

Thanks again.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #4 –
I was extremely disappointed to discover that on my Audyssey XT Marantz unit that once one runs the room calibration sequence the various time delays sent to, for example, the front L vs R stereo speakers [which may be engaged to correct for even as little as a 6 inch distance discrepancy because your primary listening position isn't perfectly equidistant from the front two stereo speakers] are not easy to override at the push of a button or two, such as turning off Audyssey and/or engaging "Pure Direct" on top of that, at least not for the digital inputs. 

To the best of my knowledge I'm the first person on the web to have noticed this, which for me is a huge deficiency from how I want to use the unit. [I want room correction but I also, at times, need to access the direct, unadulterated stereo signal.] Room correction does three thing: EQ, ch level trim, and ch delay ("distance"), but they design it so turning it off ONLY disengages the EQ part [for the digital input sources]!? What's up with that?! The problem occurs with both Dolby D 5.1 and PCM stereo.

Krabapple later ran tests on his XT32 Denon for me and found it to act similarly. I wrote Audyssey and Chris K. responded, "We just measure; the manufacturers can do whatever they want with our results. Sorry."

This plus a hyper/overactive volume control when used in the typical range I use for day to day listening, also confirmed by others, makes me hesitant to buy another Audyssey based unit.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #5 –
Quote from: mzil on
I was extremely disappointed to discover that on my Audyssey XT Marantz unit that once one runs the room calibration sequence the various time delays sent to, for example, the front L vs R stereo speakers [which may be engaged to correct for even as little as a 6 inch distance discrepancy because your primary listening position isn't perfectly equidistant from the front two stereo speakers] are not easy to override at the push of a button or two, such as turning off Audyssey and/or engaging "Pure Direct" on top of that, at least not for the digital inputs. 

To the best of my knowledge I'm the first person on the web to have noticed this, which for me is a huge deficiency from how I want to use the unit. [I want room correction but I also, at times, need to access the direct, unadulterated stereo signal.] Room correction does three thing: EQ, ch level trim, and ch delay ("distance"), but they design it so turning it off ONLY disengages the EQ part [for the digital input sources]!? What's up with that?! The problem occurs with both Dolby D 5.1 and PCM stereo.

Krabapple later ran tests on his XT32 Denon for me and found it to act similarly. I wrote Audyssey and Chris K. responded, "We just measure; the manufacturers can do whatever they want with our results. Sorry."

This plus a hyper/overactive volume control when used in the typical range I use for day to day listening, ralso confirmed by others, makes me hesitant to buy another Audyssey based unit.


Hi mzil. Thanks for your input. This now has me worried about buying an AVR at all. Perhaps I have to take back the "I don't want a stereo amp" statement I made above - being able to play a clean stereo signal is my main priority. What have you done about this yourself if anything?

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #6 –
I have yet to find an elegant solution which fully meets my needs but there are some workarounds which may work for some people in some circumstances:

1) By adding redundant stereo analog RCA wiring to each digital source device and selecting analog input mode for each of them, completely ignoring the great benefits and simplicity of using single HDMI/Toslink/digital co-ax S/PDIF connections and instead relying on the DACs in the source devices, plus adding analog video connections, the unit properly disengages all three manifestations of room correction (EQ, ch trim, and ch delay) when pushing either the "Direct" or "Pure Direct" buttons, as one would expect and want.

2) Don't use the preamp outs on the back to connect your outboard headphone amp, as I wanted to, and instead flip down the ugly front panel door to expose the unit's own headphone out, use that, and never know for sure if its completely undocumented output impedance is breaking the 1/8th rule with your given headphones causing a frequency response error. [The unit properly disengages room correction for its own headphone out, of course.]

Besides headphone amps placed on the preamp outs I'm also stymied from connecting a whole house stereo distribution amp on the L & R outs due to this problem and people wishing to make stereo recordings on outboard devices also would be in a pickle, using just digital interconnects to all the source devices.

3) Never run the microphone calibration and never use room correction.

4) Manually override the auto room settings values for the delay and ch trim for the front L and R, setting them to the exact same value, in a deep menu, remembering to set them back to their auto derived settings, you've written down or have memorized, when you wish to re-engage auto room correction.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #7 –
The solution for the lightning fast volume control, via remote, is that when one wishes to change volume from say -40.0 dB to -50.0 dB, one rapidly taps the volume down button twenty times:

*tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap,tap.*

See each tap is successfully registered as a request for a .5 dB bump. If one were to instead simply hold down the volume button to achieve the same result as I can with every other product I've ever owned, going back to Sony TVs made decades ago, the unit flies up/down and greatly overshoots the mark.

Being nerdy, I made a slo-motion video once so I could measure what was going on. The unit changes between three different speeds of volume change, depending on range, and the transition point is slightly different for volume up vs volume down:

Volume Down

+17 dB to -10 dB is 1dB every 1/8th second (8dB/sec)

- 10 dB to -40 dB is 2dB every 1/8th second (16dB/sec)

- 40 dB to - 80dB is 4dB every 1/8th second (32dB/sec)

Volume Up

+17 dB to -8 dB is 1dB every 1/8th second (8dB/sec)

- 8 dB to -36 dB is 2dB every 1/8th second (16dB/sec)

- 36 dB to - 80dB is 4dB every 1/8th second (32dB/sec)

When you are in its 32 dB/second range, quite common for me, is where setting volume becomes extremely frustrating.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #8 –
I bought the Pioneer VSX-924 about a month ago and quite like it. It's trivial to disengage any processing, there is a "pure direct" mode which you activate at the touch of a button (and keep enabled on that particular input, if you like). Another great upside to this receiver is that it supports gapless playback from USB/DLNA with several formats, including FLAC and AAC. Few others do. Metadata is shown on the display, so you can navigate with the remote even with the TV off (I don't even have one). There are of course also smartphone apps, quite rich in features and useful, if a little bogged down by flashy animations.

I suggest you give the calibration a try. In my configuration (also stereo) it really handled some of the room issues admirably, and with no apparent downsides. You can also fine-tune it if you like, turning off some compensation while leaving others enabled. I'm using the direct mode with calibration, so no additional "auto surround", nor any dynamic range processing. Music now sounds much like I expect coming from my Sennheiser HD650 headphones, with great imaging and void of glaring bass issues. Turning it off makes absolutely no sense to me. Purism, be damned.

Edit: Oh, and speaking of headphones, the headphone output seems to be fine, to my surprise. At least it's not noisy. Pluggin in headphones automatically engages Pure Direct.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Uosdwis R. Dewoh on
I bought the Pioneer VSX-924 about a month ago and quite like it. It's trivial to disengage any processing, there is a "pure direct" mode which you activate at the touch of a button (and keep enabled on that particular input, if you like). Another great upside to this receiver is that it supports gapless playback from USB/DLNA with several formats, including FLAC and AAC. Few others do. Metadata is shown on the display, so you can navigate with the remote even with the TV off (I don't even have one). There are of course also smartphone apps, quite rich in features and useful, if a little bogged down by flashy animations.

I suggest you give the calibration a try. In my configuration (also stereo) it really handled some of the room issues admirably, and with no apparent downsides. You can also fine-tune it if you like, turning off some compensation while leaving others enabled. I'm using the direct mode with calibration, so no additional "auto surround", nor any dynamic range processing. Music now sounds much like I expect coming from my Sennheiser HD650 headphones, with great imaging and void of glaring bass issues. Turning it off makes absolutely no sense to me. Purism, be damned.

Edit: Oh, and speaking of headphones, the headphone output seems to be fine, to my surprise. At least it's not noisy. Pluggin in headphones automatically engages Pure Direct.


Hi - thanks for the reply and info. The Pioneer is definitely one I'm looking at. My only worry with it actually is that it doesn't explicitly list iPod Classic as one of the devices it supports in the manual (it lists various iterations of iPhone and iPod touch and so on). You don't happen to know if it will work ok with this device do you? Also, given mzil's statement, how can you be sure what it's doing when you "turn off" the correction? He's made me paranoid that I will never be able to tell! (Now, I realize if I can't tell, it sort of doesn't matter, but I know having peace of mind about it will improve my subjective experience so I want to know!)

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #10 –
I'm happy to tell you it does work perfectly with the 80GB iPod classic I sometimes have hanging off the front. It uses digital transmission, and you can control playback either from the iPod directly or from the receiver itself, again without actually needing to use a TV, if you like.

Well, you can be pretty sure, I think. Pioneer specifically lists "Stream Direct" as a feature, it's an established thing and in actual use it's a distinctly separate mode with a clear front panel indication. Any dynamic range control or surround processing is clearly indicated as well. The compensation relating to calibration is quite granular in the iPhone app I've been using instead of a TV, individually listing which feature is turned on or off and offering manual adjustment of some.

I'm quite sensitive to dynamic range compression in music material I'm very familiar with. There's simply none of that going on, unless you activate that listening mode.

I have attached a screenshot from the manual.


Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #11 –
No problem with dynamic range alteration on mine either. Not sure how that came up? And my display clearly shows: Audyssey OFF, stereo mode, digital input, PURE DIRECT engaged.

From his manual, above:
"PURE DIRECT - Plays back unmodified sound from the source with only minimal digital treatment."

I wonder if part of that "minimal digital treatment" is maintaining L vs R front channel delay [called "distance" on my unit] like on my unit? Keep in mind people who place their test mic perfectly equidistant from their front L and R won't notice any channel delay since the value is exactly the same for both L and R. I'm guessing this covers more than half of people and for the other half they don't have a simple means to do lightning fast A/B comparisons to the external source itself, which is how I discovered the problem via an external switch box, and not using my speakers but rather a headphone amp placed on my unit's preouts.

Kal R, over at the AVS forums,who professionally reviews such units for a living, was completely unaware of this issue until I brought it to his attention. Many people who listen to these units and comment on their "sound quality" in "direct" stereo mode are undoubtedly fooled into thinking they are hearing the true, unmodified source, and they errantly attribute the small alterations caused by these circuits not being fully disengaged to "differences in the stereo preamps sound".

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #12 –
Here's an excellent on-line demo showing how not just interchannel level, but also interchannel delay, causes a lateral shifting of the soundstage. This is exactly the problem I'm having. I can't instantly remove this delay with the push of a button or two, such as "Pure Direct", "Audyssey OFF", nor even using both together [for digital sources, analog inputs aren't plagued by this]. Listen through headphones and advance your mouse cursor up and down over the grid:

http://auditoryneuroscience.com/topics/tim...tensity-trading

I can clearly hear a lateral shift of the centered image even from this test's smallest, .22 ms change, which would be equivalent to a "distance" discrepancy that's just a fraction of a foot; that's even smaller than the smallest increment that Audyssey corrects for.

P.S. I would think hearing these small L vs R delays over stereo speakers, where much of what hits our ears is reflected, not direct, hence the phase is completely scrambled anyways, would be markedly harder than through headphones, i.e. another reason why most people wouldn't even notice this issue with their receivers which don't deliver this defect through their own headphone jacks, it only comes out of the speaker jacks or preamp outs (if the unit has those, most affordable ones don't have preouts).

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #13 –
Quote from: AlephCantor on
Quote from: mzil on
I was extremely disappointed to discover that on my Audyssey XT Marantz unit that once one runs the room calibration sequence the various time delays sent to, for example, the front L vs R stereo speakers [which may be engaged to correct for even as little as a 6 inch distance discrepancy because your primary listening position isn't perfectly equidistant from the front two stereo speakers] are not easy to override at the push of a button or two, such as turning off Audyssey and/or engaging "Pure Direct" on top of that, at least not for the digital inputs. 

To the best of my knowledge I'm the first person on the web to have noticed this, which for me is a huge deficiency from how I want to use the unit. [I want room correction but I also, at times, need to access the direct, unadulterated stereo signal.] Room correction does three thing: EQ, ch level trim, and ch delay ("distance"), but they design it so turning it off ONLY disengages the EQ part [for the digital input sources]!? What's up with that?! The problem occurs with both Dolby D 5.1 and PCM stereo.

Krabapple later ran tests on his XT32 Denon for me and found it to act similarly. I wrote Audyssey and Chris K. responded, "We just measure; the manufacturers can do whatever they want with our results. Sorry."

This plus a hyper/overactive volume control when used in the typical range I use for day to day listening, ralso confirmed by others, makes me hesitant to buy another Audyssey based unit.


Hi mzil. Thanks for your input. This now has me worried about buying an AVR at all. Perhaps I have to take back the "I don't want a stereo amp" statement I made above - being able to play a clean stereo signal is my main priority. What have you done about this yourself if anything?



Not sure why anyone would NOT want corrected channel level and delays.  Then again, I never listen in 'pure stereo'  or feel the need to.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #14 –
Quote from: AlephCantor on
My only worry with it actually is that it doesn't explicitly list iPod Classic as one of the devices it supports in the manual (it lists various iterations of iPhone and iPod touch and so on).


If you route the headphone output of the iPod to one of the pairs of stereo analog inputs of the AVR that should be fine.

Quote
Also, given mzil's statement, how can you be sure what it's doing when you "turn off" the correction?


Either you trust the various labels and indicators on the equipment, or do some ABX straight wire bypass testing, or you do some technical tests or have someone else do them.

I have the resources to do any of the above, but I really tend to trust the labels and indicators because when I test them, they are OK.

My Denon AVR (same factory and designers as Marantz) has Audyssey. 

Audyssey does two classes of things:

(1) Change items for which there are manual settings such as Large/Small speakers, bass crossover frequencies, speaker level calibration, and delays.

(2) The actual Audyssey frequency response correction process.

Once you run Audyssey successfully the first time, Audyssey sets up both classes of items.  If I go in and make manual adjustments and run Audyssey again, it honors my manual adjustments and reruns the Audyssey frequency response correction setup process in the light of those manual adjustments.  I believe this explains the behavior that mzil finds disconcerting. I wouldn't have it any other way!

There are two kinds of AVR headphone jacks - those that have an internal dedicated headphone amp, and those that use the time-dishonored large value resistors tied to the output of the power amps.  I expect that in most cases the headphone jack source impedances are on the high side regardless of which technology is used.  If you want an assuredly low source impedance source for your headphones, either measure what you got, or plug a good headphone amp such as a NX-1 into the existing headphone jack.  Note that many AVR headphone jacks mute the power amps if you plug something into it.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Audyssey does two classes of things:  (1) Change items for which there are manual settings such as Large/Small speakers, bass crossover frequencies, speaker level calibration, and delays.  (2) The actual Audyssey frequency response correction process.  Once you run Audyssey successfully the first time, Audyssey sets up both classes of items.  If I go in and make manual adjustments and run Audyssey again, it honors my manual adjustments and reruns the Audyssey frequency response correction setup process in the light of those manual adjustments.  I believe this explains the behavior that mzil finds disconcerting. I wouldn't have it any other way!


So you think when you first did the auto calibration it set independent ch. level, ch. delay ("distance" it calls it), and EQ, afterwards you then can override the levels and delays, and that whenever you re-run the auto test  down the road it ONLY readjusts EQ but leaves your manual ch level and delay adjustments alone? Tell me, if it acts in this manner, how would you go about instructing it that you had moved to a new room, and with new speaker placement, and wanted it to readjust for EVERYTHING automatically rather than the "just re-do the EQ part of those three things" which is how you claim it acts now?

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #17 –
Quote from: mzil on
No problem with dynamic range alteration on mine either. Not sure how that came up? And my display clearly shows: Audyssey OFF, stereo mode, digital input, PURE DIRECT engaged.

From his manual, above:
"PURE DIRECT - Plays back unmodified sound from the source with only minimal digital treatment."

I wonder if part of that "minimal digital treatment" is maintaining L vs R front channel delay [called "distance" on my unit] like on my unit? Keep in mind people who place their test mic perfectly equidistant from their front L and R won't notice any channel delay since the value is exactly the same for both L and R. I'm guessing this covers more than half of people and for the other half they don't have a simple means to do lightning fast A/B comparisons to the external source itself, which is how I discovered the problem via an external switch box, and not using my speakers but rather a headphone amp placed on my unit's preouts.

Kal R, over at the AVS forums,who professionally reviews such units for a living, was completely unaware of this issue until I brought it to his attention. Many people who listen to these units and comment on their "sound quality" in "direct" stereo mode are undoubtedly fooled into thinking they are hearing the true, unmodified source, and they errantly attribute the small alterations caused by these circuits not being fully disengaged to "differences in the stereo preamps sound".


I only comment on dynamic range processing because I believe it to be the most destructive kind of processing, the one thing you'd be most likely to want to stay away from.

The Pioneer VSX-924 does not employ the Audyssey correction system so I'm of no help there. What "minimal digital treatment" means – who knows? Any DAC would probably qualify as such. And while there may be cases where claims of no processing actually includes significant processing, I don't believe it to be the norm. Edge cases can be interesting to investigate, if one is so inclined. If your purchase doesn't live up to its claims that should warrant a return. Most resellers are quite generous with their return policies.

My speaker setup isn't perfectly symmetrical, and most listening environments aren't either. Introduced errors would have to be significant and easily measurable to be noticed. Like I said, I much prefer what I hear with the basic adjustments turned on. I see no immediate downsides, other than perhaps being a little spoiled by what I consider a substantial improvement in music enjoyment.

In general, I would strongly encourage anyone on the fence to get one of these machines. I almost went the other way, with a convoluted and impractical but perhaps more "pure" setup. I'm glad I didn't. The wealth of functionality these machines offer for anyone with a library of digital music is quite staggering, especially at the price. And in terms of sound quality, they're absolutely fine.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #18 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Not sure why anyone would NOT want corrected channel level and delays.  Then again, I never listen in 'pure stereo'  or feel the need to.
  OK, but would you please point out to greynol that after doing testing on your different Audyssey unit, at my request, that you confirmed your unit was exhibiting the exact same thing, even though this issue doesn't bother you in particular. Thanks.

---

Here are some scenarios, which may not apply to everyone, where one needs to temporarily disengage ALL manifestations of room correction, including ch delays and level trim, and the stereo L and R signals need to have intact, original balance and time alignment as the source devices provided, ideally at the push of a button:

- one has a secondary pair of stereo speakers in the room, say one's powered computer monitoring speakers flanking their computer screen on their side desk, which need a direct signal without the time alignment and level alterations that apply to one's full room, 5.1 setup where the fronts are on a perpendicular wall.

  - you need to make an audio recording of the stereo signal

- you want, at times, to send the sound to another room of the house, instead of the primary one, or feed a whole house distribution amp for many rooms.

- you want, at times, to send the sound to a headphone amp

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #19 –
I guess this discussion isn't about the OP's peace of mind enhancing his subjective listening experience.

...but even if it is, never mind my comment earlier.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #20 –
Room correction is great. I use it every day. But there are times where it shouldn't be used though, such as the scenarios I listed in my last post, and if there are some AVRs which allow it to be bypassed easily at the push of a button, for the digital inputs, and others where you have to go through a whole rigmarole to effectively accomplish the same, as a person in the market for a new AVR, I'd want to know that.


 

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #22 –
Quote from: mzil on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Audyssey does two classes of things:  (1) Change items for which there are manual settings such as Large/Small speakers, bass crossover frequencies, speaker level calibration, and delays.  (2) The actual Audyssey frequency response correction process.  Once you run Audyssey successfully the first time, Audyssey sets up both classes of items.  If I go in and make manual adjustments and run Audyssey again, it honors my manual adjustments and reruns the Audyssey frequency response correction setup process in the light of those manual adjustments.  I believe this explains the behavior that mzil finds disconcerting. I wouldn't have it any other way!


So you think when you first did the auto calibration it set independent ch. level, ch. delay ("distance" it calls it), and EQ, afterwards you then can override the levels and delays, and that whenever you re-run the auto test  down the road it ONLY readjusts EQ but leaves your manual ch level and delay adjustments alone?


Yes, because that is what I've observed, at least as far as the delays and crossover settings. I set them manually after Audyssey sets them, and they stick to my settings. Rerunning Audyssey does readjust the levels and the Eq.

Quote
Tell me, if it acts in this manner, how would you go about instructing it that you had moved to a new room, and with new speaker placement, and wanted it to readjust for EVERYTHING automatically rather than the "just re-do the EQ part of those three things" which is how you claim it acts now?


One option is to reset the receiver to all factory default settings. For example: Reset Denon Receiver To Factory Defaults  AFAIK resetting AVRs to their factory defaults is a universal feature. It pretty much has to be.


Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #23 –
Quote from: mzil on
Here's an excellent on-line demo showing how not just interchannel level, but also interchannel delay, causes a lateral shifting of the soundstage. This is exactly the problem I'm having. I can't instantly remove this delay with the push of a button or two, such as "Pure Direct", "Audyssey OFF", nor even using both together [for digital sources, analog inputs aren't plagued by this]. Listen through headphones and advance your mouse cursor up and down over the grid:

http://auditoryneuroscience.com/topics/tim...tensity-trading

I can clearly hear a lateral shift of the centered image even from this test's smallest, .22 ms change, which would be equivalent to a "distance" discrepancy that's just a fraction of a foot; that's even smaller than the smallest increment that Audyssey corrects for.

P.S. I would think hearing these small L vs R delays over stereo speakers, where much of what hits our ears is reflected, not direct, hence the phase is completely scrambled anyways, would be markedly harder than through headphones, i.e. another reason why most people wouldn't even notice this issue with their receivers which don't deliver this defect through their own headphone jacks, it only comes out of the speaker jacks or preamp outs (if the unit has those, most affordable ones don't have preouts).



Two words: Sighted Evaluation.

Turning off AVR Processing - Help Needed

Reply #24 –
My powers of persuasion must be strong considering I got Krabapple to hear the exact same problem on his Audyssey XT32 unit {I have an earlier XT design} with a test I concocted using a gross discrepancy in distance, L vs R, dialed in manually, which similarly doesn't get neutralized from either using "Audyssey OFF" nor "Pure/DIRECT" nor both of those used in conjunction, on his newer design:

Quote
 @krabapple, what Chu just said reminds me, did you ever get to test to see if the Direct (and/or Pure Direct) mode of your 4311 fails to properly disengage any front L vs front R "distance" discrepancy (time delay), when in normal stereo mode, for incoming digital (coax or optical) sources, like it fails to do on my XT-based Marantz AV7005 ?

Not being able to have direct, unaltered stereo sound at the push of a single button (on my unit) makes me think I need to seek out another. When the FL vs FR difference is equal to or greater than .2 feet, or so, the soundstage I hear (using an outboard headphone amp connected to my unit's preouts) is laterally shifted to one side. I'm not sure if such a small change would be easily detected on speakers in a room (plus, I'm using a lightning-fast, external A/B switchbox to more easily detect this problem), but if you inflate the discrepancy between FL and FR greatly, manually, and see what happens, it would tell us if this quirk is specific to my model.

Thanks!
source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers...ml#post24641159

Quote
OK , I tried the test (setting FL to 2x normal distance, playing mono tracks, switching between Stereo and Direct, and between Audyssey on/off). Dyn EQ and Vol off, Audyssey ON unless otherwise indicated

(There is no 'Pure Direct' mode that I can find, btw. The toggle is just between Stereo and Direct)

test tracks were some Louis Armstrong Hot Fives tracks (one of which had spoken intro), and old Beatles (mono)

1. first of all, the difference between correct distance FL settings and 2x was not so much 'more diffuse' as simply, 'balance pulled over to the left'

2. given that, the only difference I heard between Stereo and Direct was that the EQ changed. (e.g. more bass in Stereo than in Direct mode)

3, The effect was virtually the same when leaving Stereo on, but toggling Audyssey on/off (more bass with Audyssey on)


Quote
Quote:"MultiEQ XT32 can also be switched to "OFF" [instead of "Audyssey", "Byp L/R", or "Manual"] in the general menu once one has done the auto microphone calibration set-up, or after having manually tweaked the Denon's  auto calibrated settings (like the double the distance trick we are using for our test, to one of the front speakers)." - m. zillch

Yes, and I can toggle it to 'OFF' as well, using the remote. Which is what I did. No need to use the general menu.

Quote:"Please auto calibrate your unit using the mic as usual (I assume you've already done that long ago, but just in case you did a factory reset you need to redo the mic calibration again, before MultiEQ XT32 will be adjustable, is why I'm mention this), then manually dial in the double the distance to one of the fronts speakers (to make the shift-to-one-side problem easy to hear), select surround mode "Stereo", then turn MultiEQ XT32 to "Off" [p89], and additionally engage Direct [or Pure Direct] on top of that." - m. zillch


That *is* what I did. None of it changed anything obvious except the EQ.

Quote:"Is the mono central image still shifted to one side, like on mine, or does it correctly return to the middle?" - m. zillch

In no configuration I tried, did it return to the middle.

I have not experimented with 'Pure' though.
[emphasis mine]

He didn't do a factory reset for the whole receiver though. That would've moved his center image back to the middle. That's a good solution for people who want to run their unit without room correction, permanently, but not for me.

Considering I wrote Chris K, head honcho at Audyssey, and told him of this issue years ago, it's possible they [or D&M Holdings actually] finally fixed it on newer designs than what krabapple and I own, and/or a firmware update may have fixed it on ours as well. Who knows?