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Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
phofman
post Apr 3 2013, 10:18
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Apr 3 2013, 11:09) *
Looking for simple explanations: Could it be that your computer has some EQ applied in the Windows mixer? Win7 offers per-device tone controls. If such are applied, then the signal differ from a path that bypasses the mixer altogether.


When using WASAPI output, how do you tell foobar to bypass the mixer? I thought wasapi was the direct way. But my knowledge of the windows audio mess is close to zero smile.gif
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sabrehagen
post Apr 3 2013, 10:25
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Apr 3 2013, 19:09) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 3 2013, 10:49) *
Foobar has all DSP turned off, and my audio control panels have all DSP turned off. Therefore I am having trouble working out where the issue could arise.


Looking for simple explanations: Could it be that your computer has some EQ applied in the Windows mixer? Win7 offers per-device tone controls. If such are applied, then the signal differ from a path that bypasses the mixer altogether.


I have been using DS output this whole time, and comparing it to the ASIO output of JPLAY. I just installed the ASIO4ALL driver, and ran my 'litmus test' Pretzel Logic file, and suddenly JPLAY and foobar sound the same. You don't know how hard it is to write this post after generating nearly five pages of discussion, making people do tests, saying 'I can hear it! I can hear it!", when all it came down to was using a common driver method and bypassing Windows' handling. The 'chuck' on the guitar strings in Pretzel Logic that was never evident in VLC, WMP, or foobar is now audible using ASIO4ALL, just as it was in JPLAY. I can't believe that having an incorrect audio set up has made me look like such a fool. On the up side, at least mitchco's test show they all have the same bitperfect output. Maybe that is some good that has come of all of this. I hope you can all forgive for not having a correct audio setup, and coming to this discussion ill prepared. Maybe JPLAY appeals to people like myself who have never configured their audio correctly, and are getting the blurred and muddy sound of DS, who for the first time hear what sound should be like when hearing JPLAY. The bottom line is, they sound the same.

All of that said, the reviews that JPLAY have received on their websites from (seemingly) respected sites such as 6moons, lead me to question "am I missing something". I will do ABX testing with the ASIO4ALL foobar setup and JPLAY to see if I can tell any difference. However, by the tests conducted by others, I doubt there will be anything there. But, if somebody says it, I will test it, and make up my own mind. Thank you for all the work everybody has done, and I hope I can escape this without too much flaming because of my poorly configured setup, and lack of knowledge.
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Porcus
post Apr 3 2013, 10:47
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 3 2013, 11:25) *
I hope I can escape this without too much flaming because of my poorly configured setup, and lack of knowledge.


To be completely honest, I cannot completely ditch the idea that you've been trolling all the way, but here you are, today's freebie: 1x packet containing the benefit of doubt.

But you should be able to find the EQ settings somewhere. DS by itself should not make that difference.


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dhromed
post Apr 3 2013, 10:49
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Science!

QUOTE
blurred and muddy sound of DS

Still, this really should not happen. I believe there's some kind of filter (accidentally?) applied in your soundcard's config software. Maybe it's one of those generic "Rock" EQs.

This post has been edited by dhromed: Apr 3 2013, 10:58
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sabrehagen
post Apr 3 2013, 10:53
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QUOTE (dhromed @ Apr 3 2013, 19:49) *
Science!

QUOTE
blurred and muddy sound of DS

Still, this really should not happen. I believe there's some kind of filter (accidentally?) applied in your soundcard's config software.


I have searched high and low to find a setting, but can't find it. I'm not ruling it out, but every area I have searched (foobar dsp, realtek hd audio manager, windows control panel, etc) has either all DSP off, or no option of applying DSP.

Is there then, any reason to purchase a higher end sound card? Is on board audio completely sufficient?
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bennetng
post Apr 3 2013, 11:04
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http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=637554
QUOTE
The acceptance of audiophile snake oil in the public sphere draws money away from real innovation, in all product markets and all price points, and reduces the quality of audio as a whole in the process.


I just searched the forum for this phrase. Helping other to solve problems can help ourselves as well.

Now the reason of why DS sounds differently form ASIO in sabrehagen's system is less important now. At least his (and our) money is saved.

if sabrehagen really can't figure out why DS sounds differently after all kinds of tweaking, it is possibly caused by his soundcard driver's bug.
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sabrehagen
post Apr 3 2013, 11:08
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QUOTE (bennetng @ Apr 3 2013, 20:04) *
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=637554
QUOTE
The acceptance of audiophile snake oil in the public sphere draws money away from real innovation, in all product markets and all price points, and reduces the quality of audio as a whole in the process.


I just searched the forum for this phrase. Helping other to solve problems can help ourselves as well.

Now the reason of why DS sounds differently form ASIO in sabrehagen's system is less important now. At least his (and our) money is saved.

if sabrehagen really can't figure out why DS sounds differently after all kinds of tweaking, it is possibly caused by his soundcard driver's bug.


Eh, I'm going to doubt myself after this faux pas and say that I am missing some configuration somewhere!

Yes, you're correct, I'm no longer potentially 99 Euros poorer!
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db1989
post Apr 3 2013, 11:14
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Thanks for being honest!

Having said that, the comments about DS by definition having a particular sound are also erroneous and point only to a quirk in your setup or some other cause. Assuming were putting it down to that, we wont be risking another violation of any rules. wink.gif
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dhromed
post Apr 3 2013, 11:39
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Just saying, 99 euros pays nicely for a new sound card.
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krabapple
post Apr 3 2013, 16:24
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 3 2013, 04:49) *
The reason it excites me, is I can actually hear the difference. That said, I have been hearing a difference in an evidently different output, as proved by people's analysis. Note, that I have yet to pay for JPLAY, I am still only using the trial.



The point is, JPLAY performs no better than freeware (foobar2k). I used foobar's default settings, and a (not-free) software recorder's default settings (Total Recorder) -- a setup that is definitely NOT configured to be bit-perfect -- to record that Pretzel_Logic.wav file from foobar to TR. My results far outmatched yours in terms of fidelity to the source. Your results -both Jplay and foobar -- appear to have been re-equalized. Something was altering the audio in your setup. That's why you could hear a difference.

NB, the foobar output setup that produced the blue line in my graph used the standard Windows 7 driver,not ASIO or WASAPI. The default Windows output was 48kHz. I noticed that Total Recorder's downsampling to 44.1 kHz was quite bad -- it introduced serious attenuation starting at 13kHz. Recording at 48kHz (the native rate) and then downsampling in Audition was much better. (Setting Windows output to be 44kHz instead of 48 would probably work too, though I didn't check that). So it pays to check every element in the output/recording chain.

This post has been edited by krabapple: Apr 3 2013, 16:40
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pbelkner
post Apr 3 2013, 16:45
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Apr 3 2013, 11:47) *
DS by itself should not make that difference.

Have a look at the following discussion: Windows 7's resampling sucks, How can it be improved?
The discussion finally revealed that it known and confirmed by MS: Artifacts on Windows 7 due to sample rate conversion.
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lvqcl
post Apr 3 2013, 16:50
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QUOTE
According to a user there, the problem occurs if the application uses the WaveOut API. Directsound works fine.
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bennetng
post Apr 3 2013, 18:02
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Does DS provide recording function? I ask this because RMAA shows MME and DS in playback but only MME in recording and I could not get rid of Audition 1.5's bad recording resampling before applying KB2653312

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=774695

If it is true, then sabrehagen's recording samples could be affected as well.

EDIT: To answer my question, yes, because I see REAPER supports DS recording.

This post has been edited by bennetng: Apr 3 2013, 18:20
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splice
post Apr 4 2013, 00:27
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QUOTE (krabapple @ Apr 3 2013, 07:24) *
... So it pays to check every element in the output/recording chain.


"Never turn your back on digital." - Bob Ludwig, mastering engineer

More in this vein: http://www.seneschal.net/annex/laws.html


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Porcus
post Apr 4 2013, 06:36
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QUOTE (splice @ Apr 4 2013, 01:27) *
"Never turn your back on digital." - Bob Ludwig, mastering engineer

More in this vein: http://www.seneschal.net/annex/laws.html


Yeah ... : No matter what occurs, someone believes it happened according to his pet theory.
I've had certain doubts about this though: If it happens, it must be possible.


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bennetng
post Apr 4 2013, 10:01
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To answer the question "How about the sound quality of foobar+DS+onboard sound digital output?" which is similar to sabrehagen's setup:

Again, video illustration is available:
http://youtu.be/ZhjInN-skok

Original audio files:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829528
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100230

Recorded audio files:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_...029976718634625

My VIA onboard sound only support 48k and 96k digital output therefore bit-perfect output with 44k is impossible. That means, 1648 sweep 48k rec.wv is identical to 1648sweep.wv, all of the others are not bit-perfect.

Any resampling (playback and record) in my recordings are done by Windows' internal resampler. Adobe Audition 1.5 uses MME to record, which means Windows hotfix KB2653312 affected the sound quality of the recordings.
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sabrehagen
post Apr 4 2013, 10:15
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QUOTE (bennetng @ Apr 4 2013, 19:01) *
To answer the question "How about the sound quality of foobar+DS+onboard sound digital output?" which is similar to sabrehagen's setup:

Again, video illustration is available:
http://youtu.be/ZhjInN-skok

Original audio files:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829528
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100230

Recorded audio files:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_...029976718634625

My VIA onboard sound only support 48k and 96k digital output therefore bit-perfect output with 44k is impossible. That means, 1648 sweep 48k rec.wv is identical to 1648sweep.wv, all of the others are not bit-perfect.

Any resampling (playback and record) in my recordings are done by Windows' internal resampler. Adobe Audition 1.5 uses MME to record, which means Windows hotfix KB2653312 affected the sound quality of the recordings.


If you are then getting bit-perfect playback from onboard sound, what is the point in investing in a soundcard that is just going to produce the same bit-perfect stream?
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dhromed
post Apr 4 2013, 10:19
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 4 2013, 11:15) *
If you are then getting bit-perfect playback from onboard sound, what is the point in investing in a soundcard that is just going to produce the same bit-perfect stream?


Other features, like the software and the inputs/outputs.
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sabrehagen
post Apr 4 2013, 10:22
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QUOTE (dhromed @ Apr 4 2013, 19:19) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 4 2013, 11:15) *
If you are then getting bit-perfect playback from onboard sound, what is the point in investing in a soundcard that is just going to produce the same bit-perfect stream?


Other features, like the software and the inputs/outputs.


I was about to buy an ESI Juli@ card for sound quality improvements when using the digital output because so many forums had stated that it had improved sound quality. Is it certainly a waste of money? From the bit-perfect output, it seems it couldn't be anything less than throwing my money away blink.gif
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bennetng
post Apr 4 2013, 10:22
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For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input
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Roseval
post Apr 4 2013, 10:29
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 3 2013, 10:53) *
I have searched high and low to find a setting, but can't find it. I'm not ruling it out, but every area I have searched (foobar dsp, realtek hd audio manager, windows control panel, etc) has either all DSP off, or no option of applying DSP.


DS uses the Win mixer.
The mixer converts to float and back to integer and applies dither.
By design the output of DS is not bit perfect.


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dhromed
post Apr 4 2013, 10:37
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 4 2013, 11:22) *
I was about to buy an ESI Juli@ card for sound quality improvements


Don't buy it for the sound quality. That's pretty much a solved problem. You said you were an amateur musician? It looks like it has decent hardware features (that split board looks cool, though I don't know what use it would be). If you feel you need those features: then by all means buy it!

I am primarily a listener, so my sound card (after I shorted my Realtek onboard with an inappropriate line-in) is an Asus Xonar DG. It performs really well.

The connectors are very close together though, so I do not recommend it for anyone with ideas of recording stuff. I can barely fit input and output together— I had to put an extra thin jack in between or it just wouldn't fit!

This post has been edited by dhromed: Apr 4 2013, 10:39
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sabrehagen
post Apr 4 2013, 10:49
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QUOTE (bennetng @ Apr 4 2013, 19:22) *
For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input


I see no mention of digital output sound quality here!

This post has been edited by sabrehagen: Apr 4 2013, 10:49
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bennetng
post Apr 4 2013, 11:03
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QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 4 2013, 17:49) *
QUOTE (bennetng @ Apr 4 2013, 19:22) *
For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input


I see no mention of digital output sound quality here!

Because this is a reply to myself, not you.
For your scenario, I would say no audible improvement (assuming everything works as expected, like my tests)

One possibility is Juli@'s analog output quality may outperform your DAC if you choose to use analog, but it is just my assumptions without solid proof.

This post has been edited by bennetng: Apr 4 2013, 11:12
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bennetng
post Apr 4 2013, 11:17
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QUOTE (Roseval @ Apr 4 2013, 17:29) *
QUOTE (sabrehagen @ Apr 3 2013, 10:53) *
I have searched high and low to find a setting, but can't find it. I'm not ruling it out, but every area I have searched (foobar dsp, realtek hd audio manager, windows control panel, etc) has either all DSP off, or no option of applying DSP.


DS uses the Win mixer.
The mixer converts to float and back to integer and applies dither.
By design the output of DS is not bit perfect.


Win mixer (DS/MME) can achieve bit perfect result when certain criteria are met. My tests proved already
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829323
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=830058
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