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Review: Best burners for reading/burning audio CDs, Bonus: CD-R media test
Anansi
post Jul 19 2006, 20:51
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Jul 19 2006, 10:35) *
QUOTE (Martin H @ Jul 15 2006, 04:53) *

I said LG GSA-4167B, not LG GSA-2166D wink.gif


4166B is identical with 2166D, except that 2166D is external. Not 100% sure about the 4167B, but I thought if the previous model 4166B has a new hardware, LG might continued using it in the 4167B.

QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 19 2006, 17:19) *
ps: sebastian cdrlabs forum aparently the folks at cdrlabs have already been throug the is it a real plextor or not discution and seem to agree its an original plextor


Sorry, but I fail to see any major discussion there whether or not it's a real Plextor. The OP only posted something that looks like a Plextor press release and the rest only asked if it should be seen as update to Plextor Premium or not and some mentioned the price still being high compared to NEC DVD burners.

yes you're quite right actually but I also can't seem to locate any information on it being a rebadged unit (well I can find claims of a rebadge) can anyone point out to specific facts that state its a rebadge (you have indicated some info, do you own one and have tested it, otherwise where did you get your info (sharing is good smile.gif (and also spath's cache explorer seems to disagree with some of your statements ), I can't seem to find any real test results on it anywhere and the few info I find seems to be contradictory, thanks in advance for all the help
(btw lacking that is there any good affordable drive wich can overread lead in/out and htoa? ) (the px-230 seemed liked a good candidate specially considering the c't review but I can't confirm those keys features ) (btw if it is a rebadge who is the oem manufacturer?)

This post has been edited by Anansi: Jul 19 2006, 20:53
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JeanLuc
post Jul 19 2006, 20:58
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QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 19 2006, 19:51) *
(btw if it is a rebadge who is the oem manufacturer?)


BenQ/Philips ... regarding the drive's read offset and outer dimensions


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JeanLuc
post Jul 19 2006, 21:21
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Jul 19 2006, 16:32) *
What are you talking about? If the Plextor has a write offset of -30 samples, the 30 samples JeanLuc added to the end are going to be dumped and the resulting CD will be a perfect copy of the original.


He is talking about CD specs ... every track on a CD (and therefore a complete image, too) must consist of a whole-numbered multitude of audio frames (with one audio frame representing 588 audio samples).

The method of adding silent samples (according to your drive's write offset) to an image will cause the drive to pad silent samples at the end of each track/the image file until a whole-numbered multitude of frames is reached - only these can be written to disc (Feurio! allows you to control this behaviour btw). Thus, the last track will indeed be longer.

But this isn't the point here ... the point was about preventing the drive from not writing data from the original image due to the lack of overwriting ... and the method of adding samples ensures that everything is written to disc ... at the expense of some extra silence at the end.

This post has been edited by JeanLuc: Jul 19 2006, 21:23


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greynol
post Jul 19 2006, 21:46
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QUOTE (JeanLuc @ Jul 19 2006, 13:21) *
The method of adding silent samples (according to your drive's write offset) to an image will cause the drive to pad silent samples at the end of each track/the image file until a whole-numbered multitude of frames is reached - only these can be written to disc (Feurio! allows you to control this behaviour btw). Thus, the last track will indeed be longer.

But this isn't the point here ... the point was about preventing the drive from not writing data from the original image due to the lack of overwriting ... and the method of adding samples ensures that everything is written to disc ... at the expense of some extra silence at the end.

I see your point JeanLuc.

What exactly can Feurio! do about this? Will it allow you to burn partial frames?


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JeanLuc
post Jul 19 2006, 21:53
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 19 2006, 20:46) *
What exactly can Feurio! do about this? Will it allow you to burn partial frames?


Feurio! just lets you choose whether to pad silence or to adjust trackmarks accordingly IIRC ... but the last track will always be padded.

I don't know exactly anymore because I stopped to use Feurio! (I actually bought a licence!) at the time the regular updates ceased. Modern drives aren't supported out-of-the-box anymore so you basically have to adjust everything by yourself in trial-and-error-procedures ...


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PatchWorKs
post Jul 19 2006, 22:04
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Best CD burners are TEAC (every model) ! cool.gif
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greynol
post Jul 19 2006, 22:25
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QUOTE (PatchWorKs @ Jul 19 2006, 14:04) *
Best CD burners are TEAC (every model) ! cool.gif

Shoot, I have a burner that will overwrite its write samples offset and it's not a TEAC.

LG makes drives that have no write samples offset.
(Edit: No, my burner's not an LG either wink.gif)

You must be talking about some other criteria?

This post has been edited by greynol: Jul 19 2006, 22:26


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Sebastian Mares
post Jul 19 2006, 22:50
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Ah, now I got it. I thought that if the image you want to burn is compliant with the red-book standard (has to, since the image comes from a CD) and then you add 30 samples of silence to overcome the write offset, the burner would truncate the last 30 samples and the data written will be identical with the one from the source. So, if you add those 30 samples, then the burner (or is the application?) will add additional 558 samples of digital silence?

This post has been edited by Sebastian Mares: Jul 19 2006, 22:51


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greynol
post Jul 19 2006, 23:00
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You actually have to shift the data to overcome the offset if the burning software isn't doing this already, but yes 558 samples will be padded to complete the last audio frame.


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Martin H
post Jul 20 2006, 02:13
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Jul 19 2006, 18:35) *
Not 100% sure about the 4167B, but I thought if the previous model 4166B has a new hardware, LG might continued using it in the 4167B.

The LG GSA-4167B is based on a Renesas R8J32007FPV chipset, while the LG GSA-4166B is based on a Panasonic MN103SA6GSJ chipset.

This post has been edited by Martin H: Jul 20 2006, 02:55
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Anansi
post Jul 20 2006, 12:11
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QUOTE (JeanLuc @ Jul 19 2006, 13:58) *
QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 19 2006, 19:51) *

(btw if it is a rebadge who is the oem manufacturer?)


BenQ/Philips ... regarding the drive's read offset and outer dimensions


and does the drives read offset match that of a benq or does its size match that of a philips, you keep working on the assunption that it must be a rebadge therefore I should look for those details but I have yet to see a statement that goes something like "ah this drive has x feature/size/offset therefore its a rebadge" all I have been able to find so far is statements that the drive is a rebadge and therefore must lack certain features not a real reviews of its actual features,( just an assumption that it can't have certain features because it must be a rebadge and... a bit of circular reasoning going on there...), wich is what Im looking for so if anyone can point me in the proper way please let me know, thanks in advance

more to the point does anyone here actually own one?

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funkyblue
post Jul 20 2006, 12:21
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I should have mine tomorrow...Why does it matter if it is a rebadge? It has been proven as one of the best for Audio reading. If it does the job very well, does it really matter?
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Anansi
post Jul 20 2006, 14:19
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QUOTE (funkyblue @ Jul 20 2006, 05:21) *
I should have mine tomorrow...Why does it matter if it is a rebadge? It has been proven as one of the best for Audio reading. If it does the job very well, does it really matter?

my point exactly It seems the whole rebadge issue has become the dominant aspect whenever one adresses the drive but no actual discution on its features has been made, btw funkyblue when you get yours tomorrow would you kindly test it for for htoa and overreading lead-in/out capabilities (pretty please) if those features turn up positive Im ordering myself one too
(on a side note to all who seem so keen on the rebadge = pure evil ) if it should be so crappy, then what were the c't people smoking during their reviews hey? are we to then just dismiss their analisys completly? (one could argue such magazines can be bought off but why then would they preffer the cheapest plextor over the Uber expensive plextor premium... ??? )

(hell I hope its a rebadge maybe then I can just get a cheaper unit from the oem and flash its firmware )
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CiTay
post Jul 20 2006, 14:31
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QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 20 2006, 15:19) *
if it should be so crappy, then what were the c't people smoking during their reviews hey? are we to then just dismiss their analisys completly? (one could argue such magazines can be bought off but why then would they preffer the cheapest plextor over the Uber expensive plextor premium... ??? )


c't is widely known as being incorruptible and one of the only remaining thourough and rather reliable PC magazines around. A rebadged drive is not bad per se. Don't forget that the firmware makes a big difference too, even though the hardware might be shared among different brands. Plextor Premium 2 doesn't have any mythical superpower, it is normal that other drives can be better in certain aspects.
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Sebastian Mares
post Jul 20 2006, 15:08
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Nobody is saying that it's bad, it's just that if it isn't a real Plextor drive, chances are good that it won't support overreading or reading pre-track 1 data.


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Anansi
post Jul 20 2006, 15:27
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QUOTE (Sebastian Mares @ Jul 20 2006, 08:08) *
Nobody is saying that it's bad, it's just that if it isn't a real Plextor drive, chances are good that it won't support overreading or reading pre-track 1 data.

I understand what you mean but the problem is I can't find a single review anywhere that
a) confirms its not a real plextor and therefore It should't have those features or
b) that it doesn't have those features and therefore must be a rebadge

(btw why can only real plextors have htoa and proper overread (I can understand the historical argument that only true plextors have had this, but other than that is it some secret uber patented technology no other manufacturer could ever aquire? ), the few threads I have seen here on its features as of now remain limited to its cache and even that seems to be disputed, one would expect that a drive already a few months old should have been reviewed by someone somewhere
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spoon
post Jul 20 2006, 16:45
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I have run 1000's of cds the last few weeks through many different drives, the PX-230A so far comes out tops (have a PX708a and Nec to test). It is a quality drive.


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JeanLuc
post Jul 20 2006, 16:54
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QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 20 2006, 11:11) *
QUOTE (JeanLuc @ Jul 19 2006, 13:58) *

QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 19 2006, 19:51) *

(btw if it is a rebadge who is the oem manufacturer?)


BenQ/Philips ... regarding the drive's read offset and outer dimensions


and does the drives read offset match that of a benq or does its size match that of a philips, you keep working on the assunption that it must be a rebadge therefore I should look for those details but I have yet to see a statement that goes something like "ah this drive has x feature/size/offset therefore its a rebadge" all I have been able to find so far is statements that the drive is a rebadge and therefore must lack certain features not a real reviews of its actual features,( just an assumption that it can't have certain features because it must be a rebadge and... a bit of circular reasoning going on there...), wich is what Im looking for so if anyone can point me in the proper way please let me know, thanks in advance

more to the point does anyone here actually own one?


Just visit the Accuraterip Drive Offset Database and you'll see ... besides, the PX-230A is based on an ALi chipset whereas every single one of Plextor's own productions is based on Sanyo chipsets.


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Anansi
post Jul 20 2006, 18:20
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jul 20 2006, 09:45) *
I have run 1000's of cds the last few weeks through many different drives, the PX-230A so far comes out tops (have a PX708a and Nec to test). It is a quality drive.


so can you post some sort of review please? does it indeed not overread or handle htoa?
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greynol
post Jul 20 2006, 18:35
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QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 20 2006, 10:20) *
does it indeed not overread or handle htoa?

What does EAC say about audio caching with this drive?
What is the C2 accuracy?
Will any of the three modes of gap detection work when set to secure?


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CiTay
post Jul 20 2006, 19:13
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 20 2006, 19:35) *
QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 20 2006, 10:20) *
does it indeed not overread or handle htoa?

What does EAC say about audio caching with this drive?
What is the C2 accuracy?
Will any of the three modes of gap detection work when set to secure?


EAC says yes to Cache / Accurate Stream / C2.

Gap Detection Mode C always works. A, B or both should also work. It's rare that A and B don't work.
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greynol
post Jul 20 2006, 19:34
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The question is whether any of these modes will always work with the detection accuracy set to "Secure".

There are drives that will hang with the accuracy set to "Secure" in any mode.


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Anansi
post Jul 20 2006, 20:54
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QUOTE (CiTay @ Jul 20 2006, 12:13) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 20 2006, 19:35) *

QUOTE (Anansi @ Jul 20 2006, 10:20) *
does it indeed not overread or handle htoa?

What does EAC say about audio caching with this drive?
What is the C2 accuracy?
Will any of the three modes of gap detection work when set to secure?


EAX says yes to Cache / Accurate Stream / C2.

Gap Detection Mode C always works. A, B or both should also work. It's rare that A and B don't work.


on a side note how does one test for overread in linux ? (or in windows (wine) btw? )
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spoon
post Jul 20 2006, 21:15
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>EAX says yes to Cache

I am 99% sure this drive does not cache.

>so can you post some sort of review please? does it indeed not overread or handle htoa?

Have not tested those (as they are not important to me). If anyone can point to a commercial audio cd that has !=NULL audio samples right upto the last 768 samples, I want that CD.


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greynol
post Jul 20 2006, 21:35
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jul 20 2006, 13:15) *
>EAX says yes to Cache

I am 99% sure this drive does not cache.

And what does Feurio! say about the drive?

QUOTE (spoon)
If anyone can point to a commercial audio cd that has !=NULL audio samples right upto the last 768 samples, I want that CD.

Just about any CD that is AAD that has not been recently remastered will do the trick especially if it was released in the 1980s.

But forget about that. It's very easy to make your own CD that has HTOA and non-silent samples at the ends to test with, even with drives that can't overwrite since their write offset is only a fraction of the read offset. This should not be a problem.

Edit: punctuation

This post has been edited by greynol: Jul 20 2006, 22:13


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