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512 MB card only 489?, MMC for Nokia 6230
AtaqueEG
post Aug 21 2005, 05:51
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Hello, I want to ask a question, and I hope someone can contribute an aswer.

I bought a 512 MB MMC card for my Nokia 6230 phone, that, as you know plays MP3 and AAC. The card's brand is Mobile Storage.

The problem is, the card gets recognized as having only a capacity of 489 MB!
I have reformatted it several times, but the result is the same.
Does anyone know what is wrong.

BTW, this is a great phone, although the SonyEricsson W800 Walkman looks fine too. Anyone has it? Can you share your opinions?


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atici
post Aug 21 2005, 05:52
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Umm maybe formatting costs space overhead -- as usual for almost every filesystem? A part of your space is set up to be used for file indexing, error recovery, etc. by the filesystem software.

This post has been edited by atici: Aug 21 2005, 05:56


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Klyith
post Aug 21 2005, 06:19
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It's because companies that sell storage products (hard drives, cds, flash) use 1 MB = 1000000 bytes. Operating systems and other software still use 1 MB = 1048576 bytes (2^20, 1024*1024).

512 * 1000000 / 1048576 = 488.28

Who's right? Well, the prefixes "kilo", "mega", "giga", etc were already defined terms on the SI scale, using even powers-of-ten, before they got co-opted into computers as powers-of-two units. So the HD makers have that in their side. To offer an alternative, NIST came up with some new names for the computer scale, ie "kibi", "mebi", and "gibi". Unfortunately nobody uses them, partly because of inertia and partly because "gibibyte" sounds stupid. And as Dan's Data has observed, HD makers give a hoot which terminology they use, they just want to make their drives appear bigger. It could be worse. If you buy anything that is listed in GB you get even more ripped off.
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kl33per
post Aug 21 2005, 06:24
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(512*1,000,000)/1,048,576=488.28MB

Memory manufacturers use 1,000,000 Bytes = 1MB. In reality, 1,048,576 Bytes = 1MB. Thus Windows only recognizes 489MB.

Edit: Beaten to the punch.

This post has been edited by kl33per: Aug 21 2005, 06:24


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AtaqueEG
post Aug 21 2005, 06:30
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That's it then.
Good for the manufacturers, bad for us, I guess

So no one owns the SonyEricsson?


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riggits
post Aug 21 2005, 07:34
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ Aug 20 2005, 09:30 PM)
That's it then.
Good for the manufacturers, bad for us, I guess

So no one owns the SonyEricsson?
*


Thankfully, no. smile.gif
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foosion
post Aug 21 2005, 08:07
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I think atici is right, and that it is the filesystem overhead that decreases the usable capacity. MMC is not a harddrive, it is solid state memory. It doesn't make sense to manufacture it with a capacity that is not a power of 2.


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kotrtim
post Aug 21 2005, 08:18
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QUOTE
It's because companies that sell storage products (hard drives, cds, flash) use 1 MB = 1000000 bytes.


I have a question, why computers have to use 2 to the power of 10 = 1024 for prefixes?
edit: is it because computers are in binary form, that's why base 2 is used? It's simple for software makers, such as microsoft can simply patch their software to calculate it the SI way kilo=1000 , but why 1024 is used until today?

Typicallly, kilo stands for 1000, mega 1000000.......in physics, chemistery, mathematics

This post has been edited by kotrtim: Aug 21 2005, 08:24
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DreamweaverN
post Aug 21 2005, 08:23
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Because computers are binary systems. Digital computers (i.e the ones we use now) are either on or off thus creating the binary state. The whole system isn't binary but most of it is.

This post has been edited by DreamweaverN: Aug 21 2005, 08:26
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Latexxx
post Aug 21 2005, 09:20
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In computer world kilo is 1024 (2^10) because binary system is based on two digits. With 10 binary digits you can 1024 different values. If you'd like to store 1000 different values instead, you still need to 10 digits because using nine digits would only result in maximum of 512 (2^9) values.
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evereux
post Aug 21 2005, 09:51
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ Aug 21 2005, 04:51 AM)
BTW, this is a great phone, although the SonyEricsson W800 Walkman looks fine too. Anyone has it? Can you share your opinions?
*

I have the W800i. The headphones aren't great but other than that, I'm very happy with it.


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tgoose
post Aug 21 2005, 10:28
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QUOTE (DreamweaverN @ Aug 21 2005, 08:23 AM)
Because computers are binary systems. Digital computers (i.e the ones we use now) are either on or off thus creating the binary state. The whole system isn't binary but most of it is.
*

Surely the whole system is binary, at least insofar as any other system is arrived at by using binary?
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DreamweaverN
post Aug 21 2005, 11:20
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IIRC there are parts in the processor that uses Ternary states. Ternary and higher were once thought to be usable systems but proved to be to complex at the time. There are advances in using Ternary and above now due to the advances in optics.
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bug80
post Aug 21 2005, 11:31
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I'm not experienced with this kind of cards, but is it recognized by Windows as a mass storage device?

This may sound stupid, but you could try to let Windows Explorer show hidden files and check if there's a "Trash bin" on your card. Windows makes a Trash bin on some devices after formatting.
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HbG
post Aug 21 2005, 15:50
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I would expect the raw, produced size to be a power of two, or a combination of powers of two (ie 384MB), like system RAM. Apart from filesystem overhead there may also be some defective blocks, which cannot be compensated for with spare sectors the way harddrives do.


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Never_Again
post Aug 21 2005, 15:54
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What does this thread have to do with CD Hardware/Software? Perhaps any of the three participating mods could explain? =)
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AtaqueEG
post Aug 21 2005, 16:42
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QUOTE (Never_Again @ Aug 21 2005, 08:54 AM)
What does this thread have to do with CD Hardware/Software? Perhaps any of the three participating mods could explain? =)
*


"CD Hardware" has been what this sub-forum has been named since the beginning, but it has been the place where every hardware question has been posted, related to audio, that is.

As MMC (and other memory cards and devices) is likely used by some HA members to listen to music on equipment other than CD hardware, I thought my question culd be answered here.

I didn't mean to offend anyone.

BTW, IT IS seen as a Mass Storage device, I will try the trash bin thing.


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Phobos
post Aug 21 2005, 17:22
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I own the same cellphone and i use a TwinMOS 1gb MMC card without a hitch... It's also detected as being 976MB and i dont see a thrash bin at all.

I also have a Lexar 1GB SD card and it doesnt have a thrash bin even though i use it in the computer or in my digital camera randomly. I guess windows is intelligent enough not to create a thrash bin in Flash Memory cards.
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bubka
post Aug 21 2005, 17:51
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i know some people go with the kilo = 1000

but i always think its because of the file directory system and partition, it has to take up some space

This post has been edited by bubka: Aug 21 2005, 17:52


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bug80
post Aug 21 2005, 18:46
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QUOTE (Phobos @ Aug 21 2005, 06:22 PM)
I own the same cellphone and i use a TwinMOS 1gb MMC card without a hitch... It's also detected as being 976MB and i dont see a thrash bin at all.

I also have a Lexar 1GB SD card and it doesnt have a thrash bin even though i use it in the computer or in my digital camera randomly. I guess windows is intelligent enough not to create a thrash bin in Flash Memory cards.
*

It does on some flash players. But I've heard you can safely delete it.

This post has been edited by bug80: Aug 21 2005, 18:46
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antz
post Aug 22 2005, 13:46
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QUOTE (tgoose @ Aug 21 2005, 10:28 AM)
QUOTE (DreamweaverN @ Aug 21 2005, 08:23 AM)
Because computers are binary systems. Digital computers (i.e the ones we use now) are either on or off thus creating the binary state. The whole system isn't binary but most of it is.
*

Surely the whole system is binary, at least insofar as any other system is arrived at by using binary?
*



Indeed the whole system is binary. Not including such obvious things as audio outputs and power lines and the like of course!
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antz
post Aug 22 2005, 13:48
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QUOTE (bubka @ Aug 21 2005, 05:51 PM)
i know some people go with the kilo = 1000

but i always think its because of the file directory system and partition, it has to take up some space
*


It's both. The kilo=1000 or kilo=1024 makes a difference, and so does the file-system overhead.
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antz
post Aug 22 2005, 13:52
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QUOTE (DreamweaverN @ Aug 21 2005, 11:20 AM)
IIRC there are parts in the processor that uses Ternary states. Ternary and higher were once thought to be usable systems but proved to be to complex at the time. There are advances in using Ternary and above now due to the advances in optics.
*


Ternary states, in my understanding, refers to the ability of logic gates to be put into a high-impedance state. This is simply to allow other gates to share the lines without interfering and has nothing to do with the binary processing. Are you talking about something different and if so what? Heaven help us if binary logic is replaced with ternary, binary gives people enough headaches as it is!
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Phobos
post Oct 17 2005, 17:57
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as for the sony w800 vs nokia 6230 question... i keep my "older" 6230 over the w800 by the simple fact it uses MMC, not propietary sony Memory Stick crap. BTW, both of them need to be modded with the included headphones in order to use common 3.5mm headphones so they are pretty much alike. My 6230 hasnt a killer volume with the mod but its loud enough to enjoy but nothing that can make my ears bleed biggrin.gif. Add the fact that nokia has better signal than Sony anyday...

What i'd really like to know if theres any point on getting the nokia 6235 over the 6230... any comments?
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