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Topic: Audio Cable Hate? (Read 66613 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio Cable Hate?

Greetings from the UK! I am fairly new to the audiophile scene, so please forgive my ignorance.

I'm finally at a place in my life where I have a good amount of money to start putting my system together.  I've been reading through many of the forums and it seems like the most controversial topic of all is audio cables / interconnects / etc.  It's baffling to me to see the kind of hate projected towards the people in support of “high-end cables.”  Sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm in an audio forum, and haven't wandered in to a political debate.

I'm genuinely curious (and honestly not trying to pick any fights), where does this hate come from?  I've heard the term “snake oil” come up a lot; but I would imagine that the same people buying high end cables like TARA Labs, Nordost, etc. are the same people who have the kind of disposable income to buy Rolex or Omega watches.  Would you call out someone buying “snake oil” if they purchased a BMW over a Honda?  I know this is a very subjective question.  I am very neutral on the subject thus far; and just hoping to have an educated discussion with other knowledgeable individuals.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #1 –
There is usually a perceivable difference in the performance of a BMW vs a Honda. A person who buys an absurdly expensive watch is more interested in the aesthetic/status symbol quality of the item than it's ability to accurately keep time.

If someone wants to spend $1000 on an audio cable because it makes them feel good or so they can show off their stupidity to their friends, then by all means. Where they will run afoul of those on this forum is when they claim those cables are audibly superior to your normal reasonably priced cables.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #2 –
There isn't any hate. Hate is a very strong word. "Audiophiles" claim that their expensive cables sound better than cheap ones, yet are never able to prove it. It's nothing to do with disposable income, you'll find the same people saying that all 24/192 recordings sound better than 16/44.1 recordings.....yet they're never able to prove it.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #3 –
I don't think theres much hate about cables, mostly just amusement that people are foolish enough to spend more than a 50 cents a foot for copper wire.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #4 –
Let me complete the argument for the OP:
People who hate are always wrong therefore expensive cables are worth every penny.

HTH.

PS: The thread title doesn't look very "neutral" to me.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #5 –
Let's see, first post on a rationalist forum is about cables...check.
Start with a false premise and work from there....check.
Label one "side" as "haters"...check.
Announce self analyzed neutrality/casual curious observer status...check.

Hmmm, where have I seen this all before...and what's the term I'm looking for...
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: greynol on
Let me complete the argument for the OP:
People who hate are always wrong therefore expensive cables are worth every penny.

HTH.

PS: The thread title doesn't look very "neutral" to me.

I'm not trying to make any argument for or against "high end cables".

Stop making assumptions by trying to read in between the lines.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: charlieclarke on
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: charlieclarke on
Stop making assumptions by trying to read in between the lines.


People aren't going to do this FYI.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.


Absolutely.  If you ask questions badly, then try to indignantly walk them back later, its not going to work.

At this point you basically have two options:

1)  Swallow pride and rephrase question
2)  Leave thread and research the issue directly on Google/Wikipedia



Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: charlieclarke on
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: charlieclarke on
Stop making assumptions by trying to read in between the lines.


People aren't going to do this FYI.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.


Absolutely.  If you ask questions badly, then try to indignantly walk them back later, its not going to work.

At this point you basically have two options:

1)  Swallow pride and rephrase question
2)  Leave thread and research the issue directly on Google/Wikipedia

I apologize.  I did not mean my post to sound like I was leaning to one side or the other, or labeling one side as "haters".  I admit I could have used some better analogies as well.  Let me try and rephrase: As someone with little knowledge regarding high vs low end audio cables, why does there seem to be so much hostility?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: charlieclarke on
(...) why does there seem to be so much hostility?


This hostility you're perceive as such stems from people making fun of "high end" audio cables as they're sick of hearing claims of them being superior even though all evidence indicates that they're not, at least not to human ears.

As a totally passive component, all an audio cable can do is affecting audio linearly. Inductivity and capacitance can be totally neglected at audio frequenceis, leaving resistance as the only parameter an audio cable can affect the sound with. For home use and halfway decent cable (even your cheap 1 mm² DIY store copper cable is) this can be neglected too.

It usually boils down to applying physics and using your brain. Example: Someone might claim that silver conducts better than copper and thus would be better for audio cables. Well - it actually does conduct better, but this can easily compensated for by just making the copper wire a few % thicker. Issue solved, and tons of money saved.

EDIT: to give you some figures, 3 metres of 1 mm² copper cable give you 0.1 ohms. In worst case (4 ohms speaker resistance, 0 ohms internal amplifier resistance) this will make audio 5% more silent, or give you 0.2 dB less compared to an ideal cable without resistance. This volume difference is totally inaudible, and even if it was, just turn up the volume a tiny bit of a notch

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #13 –
Some people don't appreciate having their reality called into question.

Have you asked in a forum that doesn't have this rule (click on it after you've finished reading)?
All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: charlieclarke on
As someone with little knowledge regarding high vs low end audio cables, why does there seem to be so much hostility?

I think they are hostile towards the rationalists because they have spent little and got just as good, if not better sound.
Or it might be that they hate the technically literate because they always want those pesky objective facts presented, rather than "I heard it, I said so".
Could even be that they are hostile to the informed because they insist on using logic and reason and refuse to accept magic and technobabble as explanations.
Dunno Charlie, why do you suppose there's all this hostility and snootiness towards "low end" cable folks?
What's your take mate?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #15 –
I don't hate anybody who believes in snake oil.  I don't even hate the person who sells snake oil.  But, I'm not going to accept audio advice from either one of them.

I might poke fun or make a sarcastic remark,  but there's no hate.

And high end audio cables ARE snake oil...  Any "audio benefit" is a placebo effect.  In a blind ABX test, even golden ear audiophiles can't hear a difference.    That "night and day" difference seems to mysteriously go away when they can't see which cable is connected...  Then, sometimes they'll start trying to find fault with your test, or they'll tell you that blind testing is never valid, etc.  And, that's the kind of thing that gives "audiophiles" a bad name...

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #16 –
A friend of mine ran a public test comparing copper interconnects with potatoes, bananas, and mud. No coathanger, alas.

You may guess the results. The rationalizations were risible.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Kabuto on
EDIT: to give you some figures, 3 metres of 1 mm² copper cable give you 0.1 ohms.


This seemed high to me so I quickly checked good ol' Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

17 AWG (1.04 square mm diameter) resistance is 16.61 milliohms per meter, so 3 meters would be .04983 ohms.

Even if you went with the smallest size typically used in audio applications (24 AWG) then the resistance of a 3 meter cable would still only be .25266 ohms. I wouldn't want to run a high power speaker through that, but in general, at typical input and output impedances of line level devices these figures are virtually irrelevant at these lengths.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: charlieclarke on
I know this is a very subjective question.


The matter of cables is actually one of the most objective things involved in building a system. It's just a wire that conducts an electrical signal. All the electrical engineering principles involved have been well-known for most of a century, and the signal theory (as little as is involved here) has been worked out for almost as long.

As long as your cables are the proper gauge, there's really nothing else to think about. And that's only relevant for speaker cables, since the power output needed for different speakers can vary. For line-level signals, like you have going through an RCA cable, nobody really manufactures insufficient cables. These are things that are easily measured and well-understood.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: yourlord on
Quote from: Kabuto on
EDIT: to give you some figures, 3 metres of 1 mm² copper cable give you 0.1 ohms.


This seemed high to me so I quickly checked good ol' Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

17 AWG (1.04 square mm diameter) resistance is 16.61 milliohms per meter, so 3 meters would be .04983 ohms.

Even if you went with the smallest size typically used in audio applications (24 AWG) then the resistance of a 3 meter cable would still only be .25266 ohms. I wouldn't want to run a high power speaker through that, but in general, at typical input and output impedances of line level devices these figures are virtually irrelevant at these lengths.

Should have mentioned that I actually computed the resistance for 6 metres, since that's the actual amount of copper wire in this circuit (forth and back the cable)

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #20 –
Great point! That would bring it to .1 ohm.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: charlieclarke on
I'm genuinely curious (and honestly not trying to pick any fights), where does this hate come from?  I've heard the term “snake oil” come up a lot; but I would imagine that the same people buying high end cables like TARA Labs, Nordost, etc. are the same people who have the kind of disposable income to buy Rolex or Omega watches.  Would you call out someone buying “snake oil” if they purchased a BMW over a Honda?  I know this is a very subjective question.  I am very neutral on the subject thus far; and just hoping to have an educated discussion with other knowledgeable individuals.



You question is malformed.

The issue arises not when one prefers to buy bling -- that can happen for lots of reasons -- but specifically when one asserts that the blingier item *performs* better.  Like saying Rolexes tell time 'better' than digital watches.  That sort of thing happens *a lot* in audio forums, blogs, hi-end magazines.....

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: SIY on
A friend of mine ran a public test comparing copper interconnects with potatoes, bananas, and mud. No coathanger, alas.

You may guess the results. The rationalizations were risible.



I'm gonna guess the results were a joke, too.

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Let's see, first post on a rationalist forum is about cables...check.
Start with a false premise and work from there....check.
Label one "side" as "haters"...check.
Announce self analyzed neutrality/casual curious observer status...check.

Hmmm, where have I seen this all before...and what's the term I'm looking for...

Been going on since Dibrom battled the idiots on, what was that, r3mix.com?

Audio Cable Hate?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: krabapple on
I'm gonna guess the results were a joke, too.


In a sense. Random, as one would expect. One guy got a significant score, then was caught cheating.

This was a VERY funny demonstration.