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Topic: Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs (Read 8279 times) previous topic - next topic
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Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Hi,

I've been reading glowing reviews for the iFi, Geek out, Halide HD, Dragonfly 1.2 etc.

I use both headphones (denon ahd2000, sen hd800), KRK rokit studio monitors and a home hifi system.

I've searched the forums and the net but haven't seen direct comparisons between the USB stick days and entry level dacs such as the dacmagic 100/plus, music fidelity v90 and the arcam rdac.

Are any of the higher end USB sticks such as the iFi and geek out better or comparable to these entry full size dacs? Or are they just great considering their size and not in absolute terms when used as a line out to drive active/powered speakers or a preamp/amp for a hifi system?

For instance I can get a geekout 1000 or a music fidelity v90/dacmagic 100 for the same price. I don't really need a portable setup so both types of devices are fine. Purely as dacs can even the best USB stick devices match the even these entry level full size powered dacs?

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #1 –
Are we back to the age old worry: Does size matter?

I'm inclined to think that a bigger power supply is likely to be better. I'm inclined to think that USB power is not consistent, and  can carry noise from PCs, especially laptops with poor quality power supplies. That, I think, has been confirmed by some of the more technically qualified members here.  I'm also inclined to think that  electronics lasts longer if it has some space to keep cool (not sure that any of those devices heat up: I don't think my little DAC does.)

The big disclosure on that is that I am a recovering audiophile.

On the other hand, I'm an unrepentant cynic, and I notice that some of the name you mention are big-time flavour of the month items in certain quarters, and that that is sometimes connected with the presence of their manufacturers. I was actually following one such thread, with some interest ("recovering," right?) when the steamroller of ever-increasing sample rates headed into territory where I don't think there is even any recorded music available. I gave it up as lunacy.

Any or all of the mentioned devices might sound wonderful, but simply have done a disservice by the overenthusiastic marketing hype --- which is big turn off to some of us, even if we do still suffer some audiophilia.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #2 –
Quote from: vineetradhakrishnan on
For instance I can get a geekout 1000 or a music fidelity v90/dacmagic 100 for the same price. I don't really need a portable setup so both types of devices are fine. Purely as dacs can even the best USB stick devices match the even these entry level full size powered dacs?


Its not really possible to generalize about a huge and unspecified number of products like this.  In terms of amplifier electronics, the space required to give you <1 ohm output impedance and 1 volt RMS output can easily fit into a fraction of a cubic centimeter of volume.  Add a bit more if you want a DAC > 16-17 effective bits worth of SNR as well or a higher output voltage.  However, as is usually the case with audio, its almost impossible to figure what will perform well just by looking at the size of the box or the price tag. 

Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
I'm inclined to think that a bigger power supply is likely to be better. I'm inclined to think that USB power is not consistent, and  can carry noise from PCs, especially laptops with poor quality power supplies. That, I think, has been confirmed by some of the more technically qualified members here.


The hell are you talking about?

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #3 –
Quote
Its not really possible to generalize about a huge and unspecified number of products like this. In terms of amplifier electronics, the space required to give you <1 ohm output impedance and 1 volt RMS output can easily fit into a fraction of a cubic centimeter of volume. Add a bit more if you want a DAC > 16-17 effective bits worth of SNR as well or a higher output voltage. However, as is usually the case with audio, its almost impossible to figure what will perform well just by looking at the size of the box or the price tag.


Fair point. Which is exactly why I was curious since the possible spiel in several review magazines were suggesting that with the Geek Out and iFi Nano and Micro specifically the USB stick/portable form factor when using line out with speakers were capable of rivaling at least some of the older entry level standalone desktop DACs  . I wanted to confirm from people who had actually used USB sticks in their home systems with speakers if this were indeed true or just marketing hype.

Quote
I'm inclined to think that a bigger power supply is likely to be better. I'm inclined to think that USB power is not consistent, and can carry noise from PCs, especially laptops with poor quality power supplies. That, I think, has been confirmed by some of the more technically qualified members here.


I was under the impression the current generation of USB stick/dongle devices at least don't have an issue with this? Also I thought something like the iFi Nano iDSD with its battery connected to a phone thus eliminating all mains power issues would be a cleaner power source and hence better? Apologies if I'm wrong.

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #4 –
Quote from: vineetradhakrishnan on
Fair point. Which is exactly why I was curious since the possible spiel in several review magazines were suggesting that with the Geek Out and iFi Nano and Micro specifically the USB stick/portable form factor when using line out with speakers were capable of rivaling at least some of the older entry level standalone desktop DACs


If your goal is just to drive line out, theres probably not a huge difference between most USB devices unless you go down to the $30 newegg specials.  Most quality devices will break 17-18 bits easily, meaning you won't notice a difference unless you're applying some massive digital gain, which you probably wouldn't do anyway. 

Hell, a lot of motherboard line out jacks do 16+ real bits these days.  Even a mediocre USB sound device ought to manage that. 

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #5 –
@saratoga: Ripple in the USB power.. but that's why there's usually additional filtering/regulation even in these sticks.
"I hear it when I see it."

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #6 –
Okay so one takeaway is that as a cost effective option for something that does a decent job as a DAC for line out to speakers AND also is a great Class A headphone amp that can drive even the most demanding headphones, the Geek Out is a good option at 199 USD.

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #7 –
Quote from: vineetradhakrishnan on
Hi,

I've been reading glowing reviews for the iFi, Geek out, Halide HD, Dragonfly 1.2 etc.

I use both headphones (denon ahd2000, sen hd800), KRK rokit studio monitors and a home hifi system.

I've searched the forums and the net but haven't seen direct comparisons between the USB stick days and entry level dacs such as the dacmagic 100/plus, music fidelity v90 and the arcam rdac.

Are any of the higher end USB sticks such as the iFi and geek out better or comparable to these entry full size dacs? Or are they just great considering their size and not in absolute terms when used as a line out to drive active/powered speakers or a preamp/amp for a hifi system?

For instance I can get a geekout 1000 or a music fidelity v90/dacmagic 100 for the same price. I don't really need a portable setup so both types of devices are fine. Purely as dacs can even the best USB stick devices match the even these entry level full size powered dacs?


Reality is that the electronic components that make up a good DAC are continuously being reduced in quantity and size, and fitting them into a USB stick is not totally improbable.

USB power is more than sufficient to power a good DAC with a good headphone amp.

Most DAC comparisons on the web are based on casual audiophile evaluations which:

(1) Are so flawed that they are not even tests. Tests by definition involve comparison to a fixed, reliable standard and their tests generally involve no such thing.*

(2) Are prone to a high percentage (maybe 50% or more) false positives. IOW they report audible differences that are not really in the gear but only in the minds of the alleged testers.

(3) Are prone to a high percentage (maybe 50% or more) false negatives. IOW they are so confused and confusing that they would fail to report audible differences if they were there.

* if you compare two things to each other, its not a test, it is a contest. The problem with comparisons goes back to the problem of what is the fixed reliable standard.  If the comparison is to a competitive product, what if it changes or is flawed?

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #8 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
I'm inclined to think that a bigger power supply is likely to be better. I'm inclined to think that USB power is not consistent, and  can carry noise from PCs, especially laptops with poor quality power supplies. That, I think, has been confirmed by some of the more technically qualified members here.


The hell are you talking about?


I'd tell you if I could find the thread, but I've delved back as far as I can stand to with broadband failing every two or three minutes. It was a thread in which I asked about the perennial audiophile objection to PCs.

What I said may well have lost something in translation, or rather, memory and understanding.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
I'm inclined to think that a bigger power supply is likely to be better. I'm inclined to think that USB power is not consistent, and  can carry noise from PCs, especially laptops with poor quality power supplies. That, I think, has been confirmed by some of the more technically qualified members here.


The hell are you talking about?


I'd tell you if I could find the thread, but I've delved back as far as I can stand to with broadband failing every two or three minutes. It was a thread in which I asked about the perennial audiophile objection to PCs.

What I said may well have lost something in translation, or rather, memory and understanding.


It is probably a continuation of the audiophile myth that anything that is bigger and more expensive is better.  This one is applied to power supplies especially often.

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #10 –
Been doing some more reading specifically about the geek out,  iFi nano and especially the iFi micro idsd.

The consensus on the first two is that they can match up to most sub 300$ full size dacs for most people.

More interestingly the 499$ USD micro idsd which is considerably bigger but still is portable in the sense you can carry from home to your work desk or for someone who travels a lot but not use on the subway or  bus, is significantly better than entry and even some mid level desktop dacs as apparently most of the money has gone into the power supply and the analog sections. It also seems to hold its own in home hifi setups with relatively high end components without embarrassing itself.

Seems quite an interesting buying option from a bang for the buck,  portable while still decently uncompromised sound quality option.  Plus it connects to android and iphones fine. Apparently there is an iDac2 in the works as well.

Note: Take all of this with a pinch of salt though,  as I have not tried the micro idsd personally but quite a large number of people on different forums, websites and magazine reviews seem to be saying the same thing.. so truth or mass hysteria read that however you like ☺.

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #11 –
Quote from: vineetradhakrishnan on
Been doing some more reading specifically about the geek out,  iFi nano and especially the iFi micro idsd.

The consensus on the first two is that they can match up to most sub 300$ full size dacs for most people.


What's a consensus of audiofools worth these days?

iFi micro idsd: Catering to the engineering whims of an audience who didn't learn basic science it seems: Is there any audiophile buzzword they don't mention in their product information page? But if frequency response is flat (odd that this bit of info seems to be lacking from an otherwise extensive specifications page) and all else is more or less as advertised, it'll be sonically transparent and plenty loud as it's rated at ~1 watt into 32 ohms with an output impedance under 1 ohm.

And sonic transparency is as good as it gets at any price: Beyond that, it's really about features, form factors, novelty and maybe, status.

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #12 –
Quote from: 4season on
Quote from: vineetradhakrishnan on
Been doing some more reading specifically about the geek out,  iFi nano and especially the iFi micro idsd.

The consensus on the first two is that they can match up to most sub 300$ full size dacs for most people.


What's a consensus of audiofools worth these days?


Good question, and the answer is: just words.  We don't even know that every vote or post represented a different person, not to mention that even if they were from different people it would be meaningless for above other things what you said and say.


Quote
iFi micro idsd: Catering to the engineering whims of an audience who didn't learn basic science it seems: Is there any audiophile buzzword they don't mention in their product information page? But if frequency response is flat (odd that this bit of info seems to be lacking from an otherwise extensive specifications page) and all else is more or less as advertised, it'll be sonically transparent and plenty loud as it's rated at ~1 watt into 32 ohms with an output impedance under 1 ohm.


I agree that it looks like someone tried to sweep every opinion including but not limited to some good objective features into the product.

It looks overpriced to me.

Quote
And sonic transparency is as good as it gets at any price: Beyond that, it's really about features, form factors, novelty and maybe, status.


What they are trying to create appears to be: Buzz.

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #13 –
Quote
What they are trying to create appears to be: Buzz.


What about this product from iFi ? More fluff or some substance to it?

http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-itube/

Its a preamp tube buffer they claim to focus on even harmonics to make the music sound more "enjoyable"

There is an interesting discussion over at another forum on the same topic I came across:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-gener...rs-crave-19521/

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #14 –
If you want suffering, read the thread at head-fi in which ifi pretended to crowd-source the ideas behind the iDSD. It's like street market banter. "You said you wanted 2*; we're giving not 2*, not 4* but eight times!"

I began with a reasonable interest in their product: I have their headphone amp, and I am still not immune to matching-equipment good  looks. Pride of ownership comes in many shades. It turned into yet an another audiophool disillusionment for me, and it is quite likely I'll never look seriously at another ifi product again.

This tube-buffer business is puzzling. If tubes do sound different, and that is the sound that a person wants... buy a tube amplifier, for goodness sake (one of the ones that does sound different, I suppose) not an extra box.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #16 –
These products are probably not even bad technically (well, the tube one does not specify distortion for obvious reasons).

If it makes you happy and the price is not too high for you then get one, but the marketing stuff still contains lots of nonsense.
"I hear it when I see it."

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #17 –
Hi,

Quote from: xnor on
well, the tube one does not specify distortion for obvious reasons.


Based on the measurement results in this thread the "tube one" is rather low noise and low distortion:

iTube review by ClieOS

Actually, iFi do occasionally publish test results for their products during development on Headfi. They use AP2 test set and generally seem to make their tests compatible with those by stereophile. Though they frequently warn that there is no proven correlation between "good measurement" and "good sound" and the people should listen for themselves (not something encouraged in these parts). It generally seems their test results are pretty decent but not the ïncredible"results some vendors claim.

Here is something they published for the iDSD micro:

iFi iDSD test results

What I find interesting is that their iFi range measures rather good in conventional terms while the AMR "High End" range by comparison measures terrible, but is said to sound better.

Greez SSAL

Comparison: USB stick and full size desktop dacs

Reply #18 –
It's not even a DAC though, it's just a line-level buffer.

Why don't they put these distortion etc. results in the specs like for any of their other products?
If distortion is as low as "ClieOS" says then there's nothing to fear putting the numbers into the specs, right? So that seems fishy.

But if they really are as low, then what is the tube there for? I thought this was supposed to be an FX device...


Quote from: Sir Shagsalot on
Though they frequently warn that there is no proven correlation between "good measurement" and "good sound" and the people should listen for themselves (not something encouraged in these parts).

Because at this point we're into psychology of the audiophile mind which includes biases, prejudices, expectations ...

Of course there is a correlation between measurements and sound, but only a naive audiophile would (wrongly) assume that improving THD by .001% or an already high SNR by a dB resulted in better sound. This stems from a complete ignorance of the limitations of the loudspeakers/headphones, recordings and human hearing -- the things that actually matter a lot.

It is not surprising that these people talk about "magic" and "we don't know how" all the time...


Quote from: Sir Shagsalot on
What I find interesting is that their iFi range measures rather good in conventional terms while the AMR "High End" range by comparison measures terrible, but is said to sound better.

Of course.
Audiophile "high end" has little to do with high fidelity or high audio quality.
"I hear it when I see it."