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MP3s generated with dbpoweramp not gapless
dancrocker
post Jan 20 2010, 04:36
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QUOTE (robert @ Jan 19 2010, 07:37) *
@dancrocker
Do you add tags like APE or an additional ID3v1, things that the software players are all aware of, but your Ipod doesn't know? (just a guess)


I don't know really. I get whatever dbpoweramp adds. I'm not familiar enough with the s/w or LAME in general to know. I guess I could look to see what was added by opening a file in foobar2000.
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dancrocker
post Jan 20 2010, 04:53
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QUOTE (maggior @ Jan 19 2010, 15:15) *
QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 16 2010, 13:30) *
There was no gapless scanning; only something about "detmining song volume".


Wow, I can't believe we haven't figured this out yet. This should just simply work, which is what makes it difficult to figure out what's wrong.

Based on what you've described, I would concentrate on why you do not see the "determining gapless" message in iTunes when you import your music files. I think you've determined that the mp3 files themselves have been properly made. Ever since I've been using mp3 files encoded by LAME, I've seen this message in iTunes. I started out using version 7.x. I recently installed 9.x on my laptop. I've never had an issue like this.

You mention at one point using a older Nano and seeing an issue. That rules out fragmentation I would think.

Have you tried newer/older versions of iTunes? Perhaps the version of iTunes that you have has a bug.

I've never seen "determining song volume". Do you have somesort of gain feature turned on? Maybe you can try turning that off.


I agree that this should just work. It's very frustrating.
I also agree that I don't think any kind of a fragmentation problem because, as you say, the nano has a similar problem. In addition, files ripped with iTunes work fine.
Regarding "determining gapless", I was expecting that the iPod would use the gapless info in the MP3 during playback. Obviously, some here think this is not the case. Still, something doesn't add up. The files play almost perfectly; there's no gap that I would expect if the files were truly not encoded with any gapless info and if iTunes didn't fix them up. It seems that either iTunes or the iPod is using this info even though iTunes doesn't explicitly say anything about it. Perhaps the gapless scanning only happens if the files are imported without any gapless info? I seem to remember that iTunes is able to take non-gapless files and create gapless ones. I don't know how it works, but I think it can do this. If this is true, then I wouldn't expect any gapless scanning for the files I'm importing.
I would appreciate it someone could do an experiment for me: import MP3s that have gapless info in the header and see if their iTunes indicates any gapless scanning is going on.
I guess I could try an old version of iTunes but, for one thing, I don't know where to get old versions. For another, I'm not sure I'd be interested in down-grading just to fix this. My "work-around" would be to rip and encode with iTunes, using ALAC as my lossless (archive) format. I'd rather use FLAC but if I can't find a way to make clean MP3s out of FLAC, I'll settle for ALAC.

One specific question: Is there a way to create MP3s without the gapless info (e.g. a LAME command line option)? If so, I could do this and see if iTunes does the automatic gapless scanning. As an alternative, can I edit the MP3 to get rid of these fields (or change the value to something innocuous)?
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kornchild2002
post Jan 20 2010, 20:49
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As I have said, iTunes scans my Lame mp3 files during the import process. I can even take iTunes mp3 or iTunes AAC files from one computer, copy them to another, and iTunes on that system will scan for gapless playback. The scanning always occurs regardless of the encoder or ripper. I also don't think that iTunes stores the gapless playback information in a separate file, I know this. Many of us (on a different set of forums) have been observing iTunes' behavior for years. It stores non-embedded album artwork, gapless playback information, playlists, ratings, and various other aspects all in a separate file from the lossy files. There is something wrong if iTunes is not scanning your files for gapless playback. Seeing anything regarding volume means that you have Sound Check enabled.

The first step would be to disable Sound Check, delete the files from your iTunes library, restart iTunes, and import the files back in. Gapless tag/medata or not, iTunes will still scan the files. I suggest that you delete all of the problematic tracks from your iTunes library, restart iTunes, and then add them again. You should see the "scanning for gapless playback" message when importing over 15 files.
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greynol
post Jan 20 2010, 20:55
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 11:49) *
I also don't think that iTunes stores the gapless playback information in a separate file, I know this.

QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 11:49) *
It stores non-embedded album artwork, gapless playback information, playlists, ratings, and various other aspects all in a separate file from the lossy files.

So which is it?

This post has been edited by greynol: Jan 20 2010, 20:55


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garym
post Jan 20 2010, 21:15
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 20 2010, 14:55) *
QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 11:49) *
I also don't think that iTunes stores the gapless playback information in a separate file, I know this.

QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 11:49) *
It stores non-embedded album artwork, gapless playback information, playlists, ratings, and various other aspects all in a separate file from the lossy files.

So which is it?


It is the latter. ITUNES stores this information in a database and the IPOD uses the database info rather than the tag info once the files are ON the ipod itself. So ITUNES reads the tags (to create its own database) but the IPOD/IPHONE does NOT read the tags.
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kornchild2002
post Jan 20 2010, 22:13
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 20 2010, 12:55) *
So which is it?


It is both. My first statement is poorly worded. I should have said "I know that iTunes stores gapless playback information in a separate file." I was trying to show that dan's statement of "some people think" should have actually been "people know." So basically I was saying that I don't "think" iTunes stores all of that information in a separate file, I know that iTunes stores that information in a separate file. Bad wording on my part, sorry about that.
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dancrocker
post Jan 20 2010, 23:22
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 16:13) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 20 2010, 12:55) *
So which is it?


It is both. My first statement is poorly worded. I should have said "I know that iTunes stores gapless playback information in a separate file." I was trying to show that dan's statement of "some people think" should have actually been "people know." So basically I was saying that I don't "think" iTunes stores all of that information in a separate file, I know that iTunes stores that information in a separate file. Bad wording on my part, sorry about that.


Ok, this is good info. I will try your other suggestions tonight. Perhaps I never saw the gapless message because I only was importing 10 files. I will import a larger amount to see what happens. Thanks.
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kornchild2002
post Jan 20 2010, 23:37
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Just make sure that you aren't playing music while doing this and that all you see is the Apple logo at the top of iTunes. Even on my 1.66GHz netbook (with 2GB of RAM), the message appears very quickly when importing 50 files. In fact there are times when I don't see it simply because the "copying to iTunes library" message covers it up. So make sure you monitor iTunes closely.
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dancrocker
post Jan 21 2010, 17:42
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 20 2010, 17:37) *
Just make sure that you aren't playing music while doing this and that all you see is the Apple logo at the top of iTunes. Even on my 1.66GHz netbook (with 2GB of RAM), the message appears very quickly when importing 50 files. In fact there are times when I don't see it simply because the "copying to iTunes library" message covers it up. So make sure you monitor iTunes closely.


OK. But, if the scanning isn't happening, then I would think the file playback would have obvious gaps, not barely audible clicks (which is what I'm hearing).
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kornchild2002
post Jan 21 2010, 18:52
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Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero AAC encoder produced files that would not playback gaplessly on iPods, the gap between the songs was extremely small.

My issue with your problem is that the files are playing back gaplessly with iTunes yet not on your iPod. To me, that means that either there is some software problem on your iPod (which restoring it would have fixed) or iTunes is not correctly syncing the content to said iPods. I am leaning towards the later as you have tested both your iPod and an additional iPod.

Another thing you might want to try is copying the problematic tracks over to another computer and manually syncing them to your iPod. That would further narrow down the problem to see if it is with iTunes on your computer or if it is with the files.
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dancrocker
post Jan 21 2010, 20:02
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 21 2010, 12:52) *
Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero AAC encoder produced files that would not playback gaplessly on iPods, the gap between the songs was extremely small.

My issue with your problem is that the files are playing back gaplessly with iTunes yet not on your iPod. To me, that means that either there is some software problem on your iPod (which restoring it would have fixed) or iTunes is not correctly syncing the content to said iPods. I am leaning towards the later as you have tested both your iPod and an additional iPod.

Another thing you might want to try is copying the problematic tracks over to another computer and manually syncing them to your iPod. That would further narrow down the problem to see if it is with iTunes on your computer or if it is with the files.


I'll play around with all of these ideas soon. Tonight I have plans so it may not be till the weekend. But I will follow through. This has become more of a curiosity (quest? obsession? smile.gif ) than a practical problem.

This post has been edited by dancrocker: Jan 21 2010, 20:34
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dancrocker
post Jan 24 2010, 01:20
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QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 21 2010, 14:02) *
QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 21 2010, 12:52) *
Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero AAC encoder produced files that would not playback gaplessly on iPods, the gap between the songs was extremely small.

My issue with your problem is that the files are playing back gaplessly with iTunes yet not on your iPod. To me, that means that either there is some software problem on your iPod (which restoring it would have fixed) or iTunes is not correctly syncing the content to said iPods. I am leaning towards the later as you have tested both your iPod and an additional iPod.

Another thing you might want to try is copying the problematic tracks over to another computer and manually syncing them to your iPod. That would further narrow down the problem to see if it is with iTunes on your computer or if it is with the files.


I'll play around with all of these ideas soon. Tonight I have plans so it may not be till the weekend. But I will follow through. This has become more of a curiosity (quest? obsession? smile.gif ) than a practical problem.


Ok, I ripped 98 tracks from various CDs, removed these tracks from iTunes, restarted iTunes, and imported the newly ripped tracks. I did see the message about determining gapless info. Then, I synced to my iPod. The playback had the same issue as before.
Then, I removed these tracks and imported my original MP3s (the ones ripped with iTunes a couple of years ago). I did notice that there was no "determining gapless information" message when I imported these. Is this to be expected? Of course, these playback perfectly.

I did something else which may or may not be helpful. I compared three files of "Speak to Me" by Pink Floyd. The three files are:

#1: Ripped with EAC (LAME) by a friend of mine
#2: Ripped with dbpoweramp (LAME) by me
#3: Ripped with iTunes 7.1.1 a few years ago by me

Perhaps it's due to the difference in encoders (LAME vs. iTunes), but the first two have identical length (1:08.347) and samples (3014088). However, the third one is a little longer (1:08.377) and more samples (3015407). I would have dismissed this entirely except that the first two files don't play right on my iPod and the last one does.

I'm about ready to give up and conclude I can't make MP3s for my iPod with LAME. headbang.gif
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kornchild2002
post Jan 27 2010, 17:31
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Ooops, I didn't see your reply. Did you delete the songs off of your iPod before syncing the re-imported versions?
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dancrocker
post Feb 1 2010, 20:15
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QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 27 2010, 11:31) *
Ooops, I didn't see your reply. Did you delete the songs off of your iPod before syncing the re-imported versions?


I honestly can't remember. However, I do know from experience that if I remove a track from iTunes and re-rip the same track (without syncing the iPod in between), the new track replaces the older one on the iPod.
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greynol
post Feb 1 2010, 20:20
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The gapless information used by the iPod is not what is stored in the track.

EDIT: I mean to say the iPod doesn't read the track for gapless information, it's stored elsewhere.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 1 2010, 20:28


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kornchild2002
post Feb 1 2010, 23:52
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Right. In my experience, it helps to delete the song off of the iPod first and then sync the new content so that an updated library file is synced to the iPod. Otherwise iTunes might just replace the file without updating the library file (this has happened to me before).
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lukpac
post Jul 11 2012, 20:15
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QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 19 2010, 21:53) *
I also agree that I don't think any kind of a fragmentation problem because, as you say, the nano has a similar problem. In addition, files ripped with iTunes work fine.


Has anybody ever come up with any sort of answer to this? The same issue appears in this thread without an answer. I've been having exactly the same problem: iTunes plays things fine regardless of whether the MP3s were created in iTunes or LAME, while my iPod (Classic, 120 GB) will sometimes produce small hiccups between LAME files. That is to say, some files produced by LAME always sound fine, while others always have hiccups between them. Files produced by iTunes never have hiccups between them when played on the iPod.

I haven't done quite the amount of testing Dan has, but my experiences thus far have been consistent. Also, I don't have all the details in front of me regarding versions and such, but can provide them if requested. I updated LAME within the past few months, so it is pretty recent.
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lukpac
post Oct 15 2013, 03:20
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Bump?
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probedb
post Oct 15 2013, 13:33
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Create a new thread, you're bumping a thread that's nearly 4 years old and expecting people to go through 3 pages of replies to see what it is.

In fact you bumped it last time after over 2 years! Now 1 year later you've bumped it again.

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greynol
post Oct 15 2013, 13:50
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Bumping is better than creating a new thread.

Please disregard probedb's suggestion. If a new thread is started I will merge it back into this one.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 15 2013, 14:00


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greynol
post Oct 15 2013, 13:56
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QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 19 2010, 02:07) *
I might be wrong but I am sure that iTunes determines the gapless positions of a file before sending to the iPod, in that the iPod does not even read its own metadata, it is read by iTunes before uploading.

I have found that I must restart iTunes after adding a new album in order for it to scan that album for gapless information and that this must be done before uploading the album to an i-device.

I also know that seeking within a Lame VBR file will often break gapless playback once that file has reached the end.

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lukpac
post Oct 15 2013, 14:02
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 15 2013, 06:56) *
I have found that I must restart iTunes after adding a new album in order for it to scan that album for gapless information and that this must be done before uploading the album to an i-device.


Are you initiating some sort of scan? I haven't seen any sort of "scanning for gapless" messages, either during import or after restarting iTunes.

At the moment I've resigned myself to always encoding as MP3 in iTunes. It works fine, but it's definitely more work than just hitting convert in Foobar.
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greynol
post Oct 15 2013, 14:05
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Restarting iTunes initiates the scan. It happens extremely quickly if done over just one album.

It will not alter the gapless info on your i-device. If an album was placed on your i-device before it was scanned in iTunes, it will need to be deleted and re-uploaded.

I'm using 10.7, FWIW.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 15 2013, 14:09


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