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Some Wavpack questions...
Martin H
post Aug 19 2005, 01:44
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I have decided to transcode my collection from FLAC to WavPack. I have previously used FLAC because of it's fast decoding, fast sample accurate seeking and since i liked that it was open-source, but since wavPack also has the same advantages, and actually decodes faster than FLAC in -f mode while still encoding nearly twice as fast, then i have decided to change. Another reason is that bryant seems like a really nice guy, and really seems to care about his users... Anyway, i have a couple of questions that i would be happy if someone could help me with...
I have thought a little about if i should change from ripping multiple tracks to images instead... If i decide to change, then i will rip with EAC and encode + embed the Cue Sheet + log file with fb2k. I know how to set the diskwriter + CLIencoder up to encode + embed, if the image file + Cue Sheet is named CDImage.wav/CDImage.cue, and if i rename the log file to album.log :
-h -m -w "cuesheet=@cdimage.cue" -w "log=@album.log" - %d
I would like to have the images named after the album, and also not have to rename the log file so i thought about widcards... I have read on the WavPack site, that WavPack accepts wildcards... I would like to know if it also applyes for tagging ? In fb2k CLIencoder i tryed to encode an image file with this command line and it didn't work :
-h -m -w "cuesheet=@*.cue" -w "log=@*.log" - %d
I have decided to encode with -h, since it's fast enough for me, and still saves some space... Also which is most correct : -h -m or -hm (i think that they both work, but i want to use the most correct one). Thank's in advance...

-Martin.
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bryant
post Aug 19 2005, 05:47
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 18 2005, 04:44 PM)
I have decided to transcode my collection from FLAC to WavPack. I have previously used FLAC because of it's fast decoding, fast sample accurate seeking and since i liked that it was open-source, but since wavPack also has the same advantages, and actually decodes faster than FLAC in -f mode while still encoding nearly twice as fast, then i have decided to change. Another reason is that bryant seems like a really nice guy, and really seems to care about his users... Anyway, i have a couple of questions that i would be happy if someone could help me with...
I have thought a little about if i should change from ripping multiple tracks to images instead... If i decide to change, then i will rip with EAC and encode + embed the Cue Sheet + log file with fb2k. I know how to set the diskwriter + CLIencoder up to encode + embed, if the image file + Cue Sheet is named CDImage.wav/CDImage.cue, and if i rename the log file to album.log :
-h -m -w "cuesheet=@cdimage.cue" -w "log=@album.log" - %d 
I would like to have the images named after the album, and also not have to rename the log file so i thought about widcards... I have read on the WavPack site, that WavPack accepts wildcards... I would like to know if it also applyes for tagging ? In fb2k CLIencoder i tryed to encode an image file with this command line and it didn't work :
-h -m -w "cuesheet=@*.cue" -w "log=@*.log" - %d
I have decided to encode with -h, since it's fast enough for me, and still saves some space... Also which is most correct : -h -m or -hm (i think that they both work, but i want to use the most correct one). Thank's in advance...

-Martin.
*

Hi Martin,

First of all, thanks for considering WavPack! smile.gif

Unfortunately, WavPack will not (as you found) accept wildcards in the tag file fields. It probably would not be that hard to put in; I'll consider it for 4.3 (of course, it will have to abort with an error if more than one file match the wildcard).

There's no better or worse way to combine the commands. Having them separate makes them easier to understand at first, and then you can put them together to save typing later. I use lines like -hxb256nycm all the time.

BTW, remember that files encoded with -h decode about half as fast as FLAC. If decode speed is very important, you can get a good portion of the extra compression of the high mode without the slowdown on decode by using -x instead of -h, but the encode will take much longer.

David
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Synthetic Soul
post Aug 19 2005, 09:24
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 19 2005, 01:44 AM)
I have read on the WavPack site, that WavPack accepts wildcards... I would like to know if it also applyes for tagging ? In fb2k CLIencoder i tryed to encode an image file with this command line and it didn't work :
-h -m -w "cuesheet=@*.cue" -w "log=@*.log" - %d
QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 19 2005, 05:47 AM)
Unfortunately, WavPack will not (as you found) accept wildcards in the tag file fields. It probably would not be that hard to put in; I'll consider it for 4.3 (of course, it will have to abort with an error if more than one file match the wildcard).

Nice idea. Could be very useful for transcoding. If it's easy/bloat-free to implement it's got my vote.

I only discovered recently that Diskwriter (or Converter) won't process TAGZ in the command line. Otherwise, until WavPack 4.3 (if implemented), you could have used something like:

CODE
-w "CUESHEET=@$substr(%_path%,1,$strrchr(%_path%,\))CDImage.wv.cue" -w "LOG=@$substr(%_path%,1,$strrchr(%_path%,\))$replace(%album%,\, ,/, ,<, ,>, ,:, ,*, ,?, ,", ,|, ).log"


With regard to using "@*.<ext>": Wouldn't that potentially, under normal/current conventions, look for a file in the same folder as WavPack? I guess it would have to be implemented so that the path to the source would be used as the folder to search? Something to consider (as if you haven't already!).

QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 19 2005, 01:44 AM)
Another reason is that bryant seems like a really nice guy, and really seems to care about his users...

I agree. One of the various reasons I intend to switch to WavPack (when I get my external hard drive which should be in the next month or so) is David's active participation and respose to users' requests . That said, I hope you're not insinuating that Josh is an uncaring b*stard? wink.gif


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Martin H
post Aug 20 2005, 00:33
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QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 19 2005, 06:47 AM)
Hi Martin,

First of all, thanks for considering WavPack!  smile.gif

Unfortunately, WavPack will not (as you found) accept wildcards in the tag file fields. It probably would not be that hard to put in; I'll consider it for 4.3 (of course, it will have to abort with an error if more than one file match the wildcard).

There's no better or worse way to combine the commands. Having them separate makes them easier to understand at first, and then you can put them together to save typing later. I use lines like -hxb256nycm all the time.

BTW, remember that files encoded with -h decode about half as fast as FLAC. If decode speed is very important, you can get a good portion of the extra compression of the high mode without the slowdown on decode by using -x instead of -h, but the encode will take much longer.

David
*

Hello David smile.gif Thank you so much for answering my questions, i really appreciate it smile.gif Also thank you very much for considering to add wildcard support for tags, that would be great smile.gif From now on i will only use WavPack - Thank's again David smile.gif

QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 19 2005, 10:24 AM)
... With regard to using "@*.<ext>": Wouldn't that potentially, under normal/current conventions, look for a file in the same folder as WavPack?...

Hello Synthetic Soul smile.gif In fb2k then the files source path is used, so theres no problem... I used this line when i had wavpack.exe and my image+cue+log files in two different directories : -h -m -w "cuesheet=@cdimage.cue" -w "log=@album.log" - %d
QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 19 2005, 10:24 AM)
...That said, I hope you're not insinuating that Josh is an uncaring b*stard?  wink.gif

I am sorry about the way i wrote my first post sad.gif That was absolutelly not what i meant... I have great respect for Josh and i am sorry about my bad wording sad.gif

-Martin.

This post has been edited by Martin H: Aug 20 2005, 23:26
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Synthetic Soul
post Aug 20 2005, 11:34
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 20 2005, 12:33 AM)
Hello Synthetic Soul  smile.gif  In fb2k then the files source path is used, so theres no problem... I used this line when i had wavpack.exe and my image+cue+log files in two different directories : -h -m -w "cuesheet=@cdimage.cue" -w "log=@album.log" - %d
Hi Martin,

Ah, OK. My misunderstanding. Thanks for the info. I don't think I thought my statement through at all - obviously the normal/current convention is actually to look in the current folder, whether that be the folder that contains WavPack, the source file, or any other. blush.gif

QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 20 2005, 12:33 AM)
I am sorry about the way i wrote my first post  sad.gif  That was absolutelly not what i meant... I have great respect for Josh and i am sorry about my bad wording  sad.gif
I'm sorry Martin, I was just joking. Josh is also an active forum member, and very well respected. I was just causing trouble by chosing to read something between the lines that wasn't there. I will stick my neck out and say David seems more open to suggestion than Josh (the FLAC CUESHEET block being an example), but both applications and authors have my respect and support. According to the latest poll FLAC is still by far the most popular lossless format, so Josh must be doing something right. I suspect WavPack's share has increased since that poll.


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Martin H
post Aug 21 2005, 04:05
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 20 2005, 12:34 PM)
I'm sorry Martin, I was just joking.  Josh is also an active forum member, and very well respected.  I was just causing trouble by chosing to read something between the lines that wasn't there...

Thank's Synthetic Soul, that makes me feel better smile.gif The last thing i want to do, is to offend people that work hard at coding great software and then gives it away for free to the community smile.gif

-Martin.
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bryant
post Aug 21 2005, 05:01
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Just for the record, both Josh and Matt are nice guys too... smile.gif

Of course, both FLAC and Monkey's Audio are far more popular than WavPack and so both of them can "rest on their [well deserved] laurels" if they like. Obviously, the only way WavPack can ever hope to match them is by responding to the requests of users (and maybe providing unique features).

The irony here is that WavPack is older than both of the other programs, and it was my past resistance to user's requests that probably sealed WavPack's fate. Matt likes to joke that he created Monkey's Audio because I never created a winamp plugin for WavPack, and I think Josh created FLAC because Matt would not open the source of Monkey's Audio. And some members will remember the ridiculously slow seeking of WavPack files before version 4.0 arrived!

Anyway, I deeply appreciate the support of the entire HA community in making WavPack what it is today. Thanks!
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Synthetic Soul
post Aug 21 2005, 08:49
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It's very interesting to hear that brief overview of the top three lossless codecs. I was aware that WavPack has been around a while, but not that the development of these codecs was quite a linear process. It's also interesting that your willingness to listen to users hasn't always been so evident - I hope this thread is another small pointer (I'm sure there have been others) that your current strategy is working well for WavPack.

FYI: I don't really have much interest in the hybrid functionality of WavPack, although I wouldn't dismiss it as unusable. My main interest in the codec, in order of priority, are:
  • Error tolerance
  • Development appears to still be moving fast and well
  • Support for multi-format WAVE (inc. multichannel)
  • The @ file reading/built-in pipe support
  • Open source and cross platform (even though I'm Windows through and through).
I only recently realised that those extra few GB I would save using Monkey's Audio are actually negligable considering the factors above.

The error tolerance of my APE files concerns me. When I shift my DVD backups to hard drive they will be converted to WavPack first. All future archiving will then be WavPack (-hm) only.

Thanks for the option. Good luck for the future.


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Martin H
post Aug 26 2005, 01:51
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Hello David smile.gif I know that you have said that it doesen't matter, and i understand that, but could you please tell me which one of these command lines you would use :

1: -hm -w "artist=%a" -w "title=%t" -w "album=%g" -w "year=%y" -w "track=%n" -w "genre=%m" %s

2: -hmw "artist=%a" -w "title=%t" -w "album=%g" -w "year=%y" -w "track=%n" -w "genre=%m" %s

(Only the red part is different...)

I have decided that i will continue to rip to multiple tracks, and not to images afterall, but i just want to be using the most "correct" WavPack command line...

On Case's EAC configuration page : http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/EAC, there is listed this command line under WavPack :

-m -w "artist=%a" -w "title=%t" -w "album=%g" -w "year=%y" -w "track=%n" -w "genre=%m" %s

On that page there are three other codecs listed which uses APEv2 tags(with wapet), but they all have the tag fields defined with the first letter in uppercase.

Monkey's Audio : %d -t "Artist=%a" -t "Title=%t" -t "Album=%g" -t "Year=%y" -t "Track=%n" -t "Genre=%m" mac.exe %s %d -c2000

OptimFROG : %d -t "Artist=%a" -t "Title=%t" -t "Album=%g" -t "Year=%y" -t "Track=%n" -t "Genre=%m" ofr.exe --encode %s --output %d

LAME : %d -t "Artist=%a" -t "Title=%t" -t "Album=%g" -t "Year=%y" -t "Track=%n" -t "Genre=%m" lame.exe --alt-preset standard %s %d

Do you know why the WavPack example has all lowercase tag fields in contrast to the three other codecs ? And what would you recommend that i use : Artist or artist ?

Thank's in advance.

-Martin.

This post has been edited by Martin H: Aug 26 2005, 04:08
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tinyvillager
post Aug 26 2005, 04:41
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I echo Martins request,i also am in the middle of archiving all my music into
wavpack but have paused after seeing several threads open,now i'm confused.
I'm not concerned with hybrid(not doggin it)just don't need it.
I want the killer command line i can punch into EAC and not be worried
I just purchase a new Lite-on drive got the latest EAC and wavpack and
some White Stripe CD's arriving in the mail.
I need the hook-up. cool.gif
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Defsac
post Aug 26 2005, 05:27
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The APEv2 tag fields in the HA wiki are in title case, though I don't think it makes any difference. I use those command line options (with -mhx6 instead of -h) and they work fine for me.

This post has been edited by Defsac: Aug 26 2005, 05:31
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VCSkier
post Aug 26 2005, 05:28
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 25 2005, 08:51 PM)
Hello David  smile.gif I know that you have said that it doesen't matter, and i understand that, but could you please tell me which one of these command lines you would use :

1: -hm -w "artist=%a" -w "title=%t" -w "album=%g" -w "year=%y" -w "track=%n" -w "genre=%m" %s

2: -hmw "artist=%a" -w "title=%t" -w "album=%g" -w "year=%y" -w "track=%n" -w "genre=%m" %s

(Only the red part is different...)
*


afaik, they will be bit identical. test it out if your are skeptical.


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Martin H
post Aug 26 2005, 05:34
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I'm not skeptical... I just asked David which line he would use of the two...

-Martin.
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bryant
post Aug 26 2005, 06:39
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Okay, let me try to answer everything without making it more complicated... smile.gif

Martin, I would use your #1 line because I like the -w separate so it's easy to see clearly. But they'll both work. As for the caps in the tag field names, I like the first letter capital. The definition of APEv2 tags says that tag readers should ignore case, so it really should not matter. I don't think Case made the command lines different on purpose.

Tinyvillager, here is the simplest, basic EAC command line that will work with WavPack and put in APEv2 tags:

CODE
-w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n" -w "Genre=%m" %s %d


You can read the WavPack documentation and decide if you want to add any other options (a lot of people add -h for high compression mode), but you don't have to.

In that other thread I created a complicated command line so that people could select some WavPack options using the selection buttons on that EAC compression window, but you don't need that if you just want the basic mode.
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tinyvillager
post Aug 26 2005, 09:13
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Thanks bryant
That's actually the command line i've been using,thank god,
cause i've already archived like 15 cd's.Just wanted to
clear it up and put my paranoia to rest.Keep up the good work.


P.S.
Just googled paranoia,(can't spell)and the first site to pop up
was www.xiph.org/paranoia/

Google is scary unsure.gif
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tycho
post Aug 26 2005, 12:29
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I guess the following could be your "killer" wavpack EAC command line. It tags all the information EAC passes over (including %x, %e, %f, %b). By selecting "High quality" in the EAC compression options dialog, the -h switch is enabled:
CODE
%h-h%h -m -w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n/%x" -w "Genre=%m" -w "Comment=%e" -w "DiscID=%f" -w "CRC=%b" %s %d
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Martin H
post Aug 27 2005, 01:29
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QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 26 2005, 07:39 AM)
Martin, I would use your #1 line because I like the -w separate so it's easy to see clearly. But they'll both work. As for the caps in the tag field names, I like the first letter capital. The definition of APEv2 tags says that tag readers should ignore case, so it really should not matter. I don't think Case made the command lines different on purpose.

David, thank you so much for your continued support, i really appreciate it smile.gif

QUOTE (bryant @ Aug 26 2005, 07:39 AM)
Tinyvillager, here is the simplest, basic EAC command line that will work with WavPack and put in APEv2 tags:

CODE
-w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n" -w "Genre=%m" %s %d

David, i noticed that you are using the %d destination filename variabel in your commandline. The WavPack commandline on Case's configuration site dosen't :
CODE
-m -w "artist=%a" -w "title=%t" -w "album=%g" -w "year=%y" -w "track=%n" -w "genre=%m" %s

Would you recommend to use the %d or not ?

Thank's in advance.

-Martin.

This post has been edited by Martin H: Aug 27 2005, 23:38
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bryant
post Aug 27 2005, 23:35
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Hi Martin. smile.gif

I use the %d file specification only because it's required for the "hack" that I put into wavpack.exe to allow the correction files to automatically work with EAC. For that hack to work, the third filename is the name for the correction file, but if you don't specify the destination filename then you can't have three filenames.

If you're not using the hybrid lossless mode then you can get away without the destination filename, but I still use it.
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Martin H
post Aug 27 2005, 23:40
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Thank's David smile.gif Could you please explain to me what exactly it means when you say that tag readers should ignore case. Does it mean that if i for example has a field called Artist, then the tag reader will display it as ARTIST(if the program is using all uppercase as standard for the displayed tags)... Or does it mean that if the tag reader is looking for a field called Artist, then it will find it in the file no matter if its called ARTIST or artist...

Thank's in advance.

-Martin.
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bryant
post Aug 27 2005, 23:49
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 27 2005, 02:40 PM)
Thank's David smile.gif Could you please explain to me what exactly it means when you say that tag readers should ignore case. Does it mean that if i for example has a field called Artist, then the tag reader will display it as ARTIST(if the program is using all uppercase as standard for the displayed tags)... Or does it mean that if the tag reader is looking for a field called Artist, then it will find it in the file no matter if its called ARTIST or artist...

Thank's in advance.

-Martin.
*

The latter. Tag readers should find the tag in the file no matter what case is used, even "ArTisT".

And tag readers can display the tags any way they like. For example, foobar2000 displays "ARTIST" no matter what the case is in the tag. In fact, foobar2000 will even display the field "Year" as "DATE" and "Track" as "TRACKNUMBER"...
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Martin H
post Aug 27 2005, 23:59
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David, thank you so much for all the help you have given me smile.gif

-Martin.

This post has been edited by Martin H: Aug 28 2005, 00:04
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esa372
post Sep 2 2005, 16:59
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Thanks for all the info! biggrin.gif

I've got a few questions regarding converting audio files to WavPack (v4.2) via foobar2000 (v0.8.3)...

1 - I'm using a very simple string in the Parameters box in foobar's CLI settings which seems to work fine:
CODE
-h - %d
Is this sufficient for general encoding, or is there some room for improvement?

2 - Is there any benefit or drawback to enabling the "Encoder requires accurate length" option? (I've never quite understood what this option is for.) unsure.gif

TIA!

~esa


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Mr_Rabid_Teddybe...
post Sep 2 2005, 17:37
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QUOTE (esa372 @ Sep 2 2005, 07:59 AM)
Thanks for all the info!  biggrin.gif

I've got a few questions regarding converting audio files to WavPack (v4.2) via foobar2000 (v0.8.3)...

1 - I'm using a very simple string in the Parameters box in foobar's CLI settings which seems to work fine:
CODE
-h - %d
Is this sufficient for general encoding, or is there some room for improvement?

2 - Is there any benefit or drawback to enabling the "Encoder requires accurate length" option?  (I've never quite understood what this option is for.) unsure.gif

TIA!

~esa
*

If I've understood this right you should either enable the "Encoder requires accurate length" option or use the -i switch with wavpack in fb2k.

Personally I use -himt - %d (high compression, ignore length in wav header, make md5, copy timestamp).


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esa372
post Sep 4 2005, 20:54
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Thanks for the help, Mr_Rabid_Teddybear..!

biggrin.gif


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Synthetic Soul
post Sep 22 2005, 11:12
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QUOTE (Martin H @ Aug 20 2005, 12:33 AM)
QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ Aug 19 2005, 10:24 AM)
... With regard to using "@*.<ext>": Wouldn't that potentially, under normal/current conventions, look for a file in the same folder as WavPack?...

Hello Synthetic Soul smile.gif In fb2k then the files source path is used, so theres no problem... I used this line when i had wavpack.exe and my image+cue+log files in two different directories : -h -m -w "cuesheet=@cdimage.cue" -w "log=@album.log" - %d
*

I've tried this myself in 0.8.3 and 0.9 and I can't get it to work unless I put in the full path to the cuesheet.

Any pointers?

The command I'm using is:

CODE
-hm -w "ARTIST=%artist%" -w "ALBUM=%album%" -w "YEAR=%date%" -w "CUESHEET=@CDImage.wv.cue" - %d

If I use WAVPACK_DEBUG.EXE the report states:

...
8: -w
9: CUESHEET=@CDImage.wv.cue
10: -
11: C:\DOS\testing\Kings of Leon\CDImage.wv
error in tag spec: CUESHEET=@CDImage.wv.cue !


As I say, it works fine if I use an absolute reference to the cuesheet.

Edit: With further testing it seems it will work if the cuesheet is in the same folder as WavPack. This makes me suspicious that foobar is actually running from the WavPack folder, and not the source file folder, as first suspected.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

This post has been edited by Synthetic Soul: Sep 22 2005, 12:48


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