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It's Official - the New iPOD mini announced!, Apple's newest, smallest 4GB mini player
Treefingers
post Jan 7 2004, 14:05
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QUOTE
QUOTE (de Mon @ Jan 6 2004, 04:57 PM)
1. Expensive
2. Still no AAC HE support (Am I wrong?)

3. Battery still only lasts 8 hours


4. Still no gapless playback (worst of all) ph34r.gif
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de Mon
post Jan 7 2004, 14:17
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QUOTE (panwx @ Jan 7 2004, 02:07 AM)
QUOTE (rossthiof @ Jan 7 2004, 01:31 AM)
iPod mini... how boring wink.gif

I found this more exciting :

http://www.iriver.com/community/discussion...um&pre_idx=9750


An yes : there are still more players supporting Vorbis then AAC ...

i have to say that iriver cannot match iPod,it's true

You should inform iRiver about that laugh.gif


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rjamorim
post Jan 7 2004, 15:19
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QUOTE (rossthiof @ Jan 7 2004, 07:31 AM)
An yes : there are still more players supporting Vorbis then AAC ...

Not if you consider Apple has 30-35% of the compressed audio player market. It's the biggest market share.


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rossthiof
post Jan 7 2004, 15:24
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> " Not if you consider Apple has 30-35% of the compressed audio player market. It's the biggest market share."

That's what I would call a "mono-culture" wink.gif (in relation to hardware-based AAC-player)

This post has been edited by rossthiof: Jan 7 2004, 15:26


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Bongoboy
post Jan 7 2004, 17:14
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QUOTE (bidz @ Jan 6 2004, 11:36 PM)
Still too big, too heavy, too expensive and still suffers from a short battery time.

Well then, as long as were comparing ipod vs MD, let's look at the facts, instead of trading FUD.

mini-iPod weight and dimensions 3.7oz 3.6"x2"x0.5"

And the Sony NetMD range
NetMD weight:
MZNE410 3.8oz without battery
MZN510CK 3.6oz without battery
MZNF610 3.6oz without battery
MZNF810CK 3.8 oz without battery

Also for dimensions lets take the smallest of these the 810 model : 3-3⁄16" x 3" x 13⁄16"

that NetMD model is 7.77 cubic inches.
the mini-iPod is 3.6 cubic inches.

and of course that's not including any additional 0.2oz 1.5 cubic inch Minidiscs you take along, so it looks pretty equivalent to me - on weight and dimensions, at least.

Of course, on other criterion they ARE wildly different.

The average battery life in SP mode using only the official Sony recharchable is about 17hrs max, with vast increases with an additional AA clipped on, particularly if you use the Low-quality settings such as LP4 - then you can apparently get 50+hrs.

and of course, cash outlay is much smaller for most MD hardware.

But don't believe me, check it out - heres where these official factoids come from

source Sony
Apple

EDIT: before anyone questions the dimensions, bear in mind that a Minidisc itself has a volume of 1.51 cubic inches, and the smallest of MD players I have ever seen was twice as thick, and of course slightly wider than the disc itself. so the probable minimum size out there is just over 3 cubic inches. Also note I am aware that I demonstrated that the smallest NetMD up there is twice as big as the mini-iPod...

This post has been edited by Bongoboy: Jan 7 2004, 17:21


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bidz
post Jan 7 2004, 18:46
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@ Bongoboy:

Seems like you didn't check up all NetMD Players though.

I have the MZ-N10/S, which has a Magnesium body, and weighs 81 grams (including battery), has 40hrs of playback from the built-in Li-Ion battery, and a extra of 18hrs playback if i clip on one AA battery with the included battery clip, so that's 58hrs. It's 12.9mm thick (1.3cm), and has 64x transfer speed. Also supports WMA/MP3/WAV.

84 grams = approx. 2.8 ounces. (check www.onlineconversion.com).

The lightest MD weighs 55 grams (MZ-E10), and has the same battery/playback time as the MZ-N10/S, but this is not a NetMD. The MZ-E10 is also 9.99mm thick, that's almost 1 cm.

There is also a little bit heavier NetMD that has 115hrs playback (probably with the battery clip, but still... and this one weighs 115 grams, and thats approx. the same as the Ipod-Mini, 3.6 ounces (roughly)).

Link to the MZ-N10 spech's: http://products.sony.co.uk/productdetail.asp?id=1_24_2589

Link to the smallest/lightest MD Model, MZ-E10: http://products.sony.co.uk/productdetail.asp?id=1_24_2593

This post has been edited by bidz: Jan 7 2004, 18:52


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rage-
post Jan 7 2004, 19:58
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DNNA announced a 4gig version of the Rio Nitrus yesterday. Similar features to the iPod, except no ACC support, and WMA support. 16 hour battery life, and weighing less then two ounces.

Press Release: http://www.riovolution.com/modules.php?nam...=article&sid=41


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ATLien
post Jan 7 2004, 21:02
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For what it's worth, under Technical Specifications for the mini and regular I-pods, it also says,"Upgradeable firmware enables support for future audio formats."

Now this could mean one of two things. First, a bluff to have you buy and wait in the wings for a better audio format support or, possibly Stevie and the boys actually realize that better formats are out there and it would be beneficial if they were to capitalize them while they can, instead of joining the band wagon once again.
Only time will tell. Let's hope Stevie, will read a couple of threads here in H.A., and get a clue. cool.gif

This post has been edited by ATLien: Jan 7 2004, 21:03


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Joseph
post Jan 7 2004, 21:34
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I don't think Steve Jobs would like the Idea of paying royalties to Microsoft for use of the WMA format.
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Busemann
post Jan 7 2004, 21:49
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Seriously, attacking the iPod mini for its size is lame biggrin.gif I bet it will sell like hot-cakes just like the current models.

Just don't expect wma support anytime soon wink.gif
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ATLien
post Jan 8 2004, 00:57
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QUOTE (Joseph @ Jan 7 2004, 12:34 PM)
I don't think Steve Jobs would like the Idea of paying royalties to Microsoft for use of the WMA format.

Basically I was talking about any other lossless format, other than WMA.

They probably will sell a "gazillion" of them, but I would probably(and i said probably) will get one then, if the format variety was a little more broader.
I'll wait an see if they will add future file format, first. wink.gif

This post has been edited by ATLien: Jan 8 2004, 00:58


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Bongoboy
post Jan 8 2004, 02:53
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QUOTE (bidz @ Jan 7 2004, 06:46 PM)
I have the MZ-N10/S, which has a Magnesium body, and weighs 81 grams (including battery), has 40hrs of playback from the built-in Li-Ion battery, and a extra of 18hrs playback if i clip on one AA battery with the included battery clip, so that's 58hrs. It's 12.9mm thick (1.3cm), and has 64x transfer speed. Also supports WMA/MP3/WAV.

84 grams = approx. 2.8 ounces. (check www.onlineconversion.com).

The lightest MD weighs 55 grams (MZ-E10), and has the same battery/playback time as the MZ-N10/S, but this is not a NetMD. The MZ-E10 is also 9.99mm thick, that's almost 1 cm.

There is also a little bit heavier NetMD that has 115hrs playback (probably with the battery clip, but still... and this one weighs 115 grams, and thats approx. the same as the Ipod-Mini, 3.6 ounces (roughly)).

Link to the MZ-N10 spech's: http://products.sony.co.uk/productdetail.asp?id=1_24_2589

Link to the smallest/lightest MD Model, MZ-E10: http://products.sony.co.uk/productdetail.asp?id=1_24_2593

I apologise, you're right. I will say in my defense that I'd have criticised your comments based on the MZN10 if I knew which of the specific models you used. Still, I don't think your comment "Still too big, too heavy, too expensive and still suffers from a short battery time." (my emphasis) is entirely justified. your model is 3oz* compared with the mini iPods 3.6 - thats 1.2 times heavier, and if you can accept an error of 0.4oz (115g=4.06oz=3.6oz approx. see your comment above) as approximately the same, I'm sure you can accept that it weighs the same as your NetMD too. But as for the volume, your model is 5.27 cubic inches - 1.5 times larger than the mini-iPod.

Then theres the retail price. mini-iPod = $249. MZN10? $349.95 although I found them them as low as $235 with a google search. (the link you provide is in UKP 225. $249 is about 174 pounds right now, but that will have no relevance to Apples actual UK price. I'd guess an RRP of 199 UKP )

The other model you mentioned, the MZ-E10 does beat the mini-iPod on everything but price. $329 RRP - but as you say, its not one of the "NetMD" range, so you'd need a MD recorder to go with that, or it's useless.

So in conclusion, I feel that your statement is a little unwarranted, particularly with your comparison to the larger, slightly lighter, officially substantially more expensive (+$100) but sometimes slightly cheaper (-$15) Minidisc Player/Recorder that you own. In fact the only substantive grounds you seem to have for a favourable comparison is battery life, which may occasionally be an issue for those who purchase the mini-iPod.

Actually I agree that the mini-iPod has a disappointing price, and iPod battery life is too short for some purposes...and for that matter the colour schemes are awful and they still don't support as many formats as I like - I will not be getting one.

I apologise if I'm coming ona bit strong, but I don't like it when people detract unfairly and unthinkingly from somethng. Minidisc probably suits your purposes more, but I'm disputing this based on the facts, not preferences. IIRC thats what HA is all about.

Note *2.96oz to one decimal place is 3.0,not 2.8. that's a big error at these values (I love the google conversion calculator)


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Bongoboy
post Jan 8 2004, 02:57
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QUOTE (ATLien @ Jan 8 2004, 12:57 AM)
Basically I was talking about any other lossless format, other than WMA.

regular ipods support PCM AIFF and WAV files. The boys at apple probably think that's enough. Short of a breakthrough in lossless compression I doubt they'll include anything else - It'll kill the battery very quickly indeed with all the HD reads. Any sort of lossless compressed format probably won't help enough for them to bother.


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dreamliner77
post Jan 8 2004, 07:34
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I like the IRiver iMP-1000 and 1100

portable cd, mp3 AND DIVX w/ TV out.

Sweet.


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zubialde
post Jan 8 2004, 11:54
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QUOTE (Guillaume @ Jan 7 2004, 02:52 AM)
QUOTE (panwx @ Jan 7 2004, 11:07 AM)
QUOTE (rossthiof @ Jan 7 2004, 01:31 AM)
iPod mini... how boring wink.gif

I found this more exciting :

http://www.iriver.com/community/discussion...um&pre_idx=9750


An yes : there are still more players supporting Vorbis then AAC ...

i have to say that iriver cannot match iPod,it's true

In what way? Never heard this statement before without any arguments...

Well,

I have to say that I owned an iHP120 for 10 days (3 weeks ago)and I listened to it at least 3 hours a day (I had only 15 days to try the device) and, although design is beatiful + I liked the OGG support + battery life is much better than the iPod + the remote control is a wonder, if you are worried about sound quality then an iPod is a much better choice (I am an HiFi aficionado). I tried with the EQ settings and WOW and SRS settings, the stock headphones (crap!!), AKG 240 (too low volume because of the 600 Ohm) and a pair of Sennheiser PX200: I was unable to get consistent good sound and I used several songs compressed and uncompressed, listened in my HiFi equipment AND in the iHP120. Take for example the drums in "You Shook Me All Night Long" from AC/DC's "Back in Black", they sounded as a boom-box or John Coltrane´s "Blue Train", the saxo sounded like plastic.
I returned the iHP120 and now own a 40GB iPod (stock headphones surprisingly are quite good although they lack bass and the PX200 are a bit "muddy" but bass is very natural. But now the sound is "real" if you know what I mean), and both in Spain cost the same (549€).
And by the way, I am a PC guy, that's why I first tried a Nomad Zen Xtra (Good sound although the iPod sounds better IMHO, ridiculous battery life if you listen to uncompressed tracks due to only 8MB of cache and unergonomical) for a week, then the iHP120 and lastly the iPod; all thanks to store (FNAC) flexible return policy (you can try the device for 15 days and return it without a question).

Saludos.
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danchr
post Jan 8 2004, 12:16
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QUOTE (ATLien @ Jan 7 2004, 09:02 PM)
For what it's worth, under Technical Specifications for the mini and regular I-pods, it also says,"Upgradeable firmware enables support for future audio formats."

It's worth noting that Apple used this to add AAC support to their older iPods. One possible use for this would be High Efficiency AAC if/when Apple start using it.

Personally, I like the idea of the mini iPod, but I don't like the price tag. I don't care much for size - the normal iPod is already very small - but a price difference of 300kr. for 11GB of storage doesn't make sense.
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de Mon
post Jan 8 2004, 17:43
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QUOTE (Busemann @ Jan 7 2004, 12:49 PM)
Seriously, attacking the iPod mini for its size is lame  biggrin.gif  I bet it will sell like hot-cakes just like the current models.

Just don't expect wma support anytime soon  wink.gif

There are many crap things in the world that most people choose. For example WMA, most AIWA production, cheap SONY acoustics e.t.c. If they are popular it doesn't mean the are good.


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de Mon
post Jan 8 2004, 17:55
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QUOTE (zubialde @ Jan 8 2004, 02:54 AM)
if you are worried about sound quality then an iPod is a much better choice (I am an HiFi aficionado).  I tried with the EQ settings and WOW and SRS settings, the stock headphones (crap!!), AKG 240 (too low volume because of the 600 Ohm) and a pair of Sennheiser PX200:
Saludos.

LOL I meet HiFi aficionado worried about 'low volume' first time in my life. By the way (IMHO and as I know) HiFi aficinadoes use EQ only to compensate acoustics they use, and never bother about SRS, X-SRS, SUPER-DUPER-SRS, HI-EXPLOSIVE-SRS and TRIPLE SQUARE ROOT SRS. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by de Mon: Jan 8 2004, 17:57


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kennedyb4
post Jan 8 2004, 18:17
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I would buy this in an instant if it did not have the proprietary lithium battery. To say it has 8 hours capability is very misleading.

If you were to consistently kill the battery, its life would be unacceptable.

I have heard the replacements are ridiculously expensive. Can anyone who knows comment on this? The website is suitably vague on this.

If this device had internal aaa batts, I would order it today.
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zubialde
post Jan 9 2004, 11:25
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QUOTE (de Mon @ Jan 8 2004, 08:55 AM)
QUOTE (zubialde @ Jan 8 2004, 02:54 AM)
if you are worried about sound quality then an iPod is a much better choice (I am an HiFi aficionado).  I tried with the EQ settings and WOW and SRS settings, the stock headphones (crap!!), AKG 240 (too low volume because of the 600 Ohm) and a pair of Sennheiser PX200:
Saludos.

LOL I meet HiFi aficionado worried about 'low volume' first time in my life. By the way (IMHO and as I know) HiFi aficinadoes use EQ only to compensate acoustics they use, and never bother about SRS, X-SRS, SUPER-DUPER-SRS, HI-EXPLOSIVE-SRS and TRIPLE SQUARE ROOT SRS. tongue.gif

Regarding the low volume in the AKG headphones, at maximum volume you barely heard the music. Headphone output are usually designed for high efficiency + low impedance headphone(< 60 Ohm). I like to hear music at enough volume to enjoy the details, and you know that AC/DC or Led Zeppelin need a decent amount of power biggrin.gif

And about the EQ, yes you are right (my HiFi amplifier, a Pathos Classic One II, does not even have balance control), the only reason I used the EQ in the iHP120 is that the sound was so bad (IMHO) that I tried to "enhance" it in every way possible following recommendations in several forums (including the iRiver forum). Sound was quite good without EQ or EAX in the Nomad Zen Xtra and it is very good in the iPod without EQ at all.

Saludos

This post has been edited by zubialde: Jan 9 2004, 11:26
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Bongo yep
post Jan 16 2004, 03:53
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Compared to other priced electonic technology I think ipod like other popular models that get a name for them selves ,use this to vastly sover price their mass produced electronics ,very cheaply manufactured products at a very high price.

Mp3 players like many electronic components are extremely cheap to produce using printed circuit boards, and any human labur needed is often from cheaply paid labour in countrys that are exploited by the big commerical system.

I think the Ipod player is a nice peace of kit and I'd buy one if I was in the habbit of being ripped off or had enough cash not to be too concerned that I was paying more cash simply for the name rather than the material bought.

So what the alternative? their isn't one this is a game of monopoly.
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Bongo yep
post Jan 16 2004, 03:56
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QUOTE (mithrandir @ Jan 6 2004, 05:07 PM)
Still too expensive. They still can't deliver a product for $199 or less. Is that asking too much?

I won't spend $250, $300 or $400 for the latest trinket-of-the-year. No wonder Americans are shouldering so much debt.

wink.gif
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Bongo yep
post Jan 16 2004, 04:19
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Have any of you guys got or listenened to a 'ARCHOS JUKEBOX 6000 PORTABLE USB HARD DISC DRIVE & MP3 PLAYER'

This is an old version I'm thinking of getting second hand,it has 6 GB of drive space and connects with USB. It has no restrictions so you can transfer music or any other files both ways on your PC ,unlike ipod which has signed up to some organisation that is against free trading ( between friends ) of their mp3 collection ,thus I beleive Ipod will only transfer mp3's onto the ipod but not back to the PC.

Funny how copyright seems to be restricting freedom and development, even now with it's biggest adversarys who are more and more retsricting their technology that they say they need to copy right to advance it.

Anyway the Archos Jukebox though quite Big and heavy is still pocket size and looks robust and also can be used as a external hard USB hard drive.

Does anyone know of any other pro's or cons about this version please?
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Audible!
post Jan 16 2004, 06:43
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QUOTE
DNNA announced a 4gig version of the Rio Nitrus yesterday. Similar features to the iPod, except no ACC support, and WMA support. 16 hour battery life, and weighing less then two ounces.


And it's also $249. Great, way to give me an incentive to buy your product Rio. "Oooooh, it's got WMA support!!!!" dry.gif

The least they could do is drop the price of their 1.5GB Nitrus to $150, then it might be worth buying. Especially with Ogg Vorbis support like the Karma.
In fairness to Rio, the Nitrus 1.5GB is $170 at amazon.
edited emboldened word so as not to be italicized

This post has been edited by Audible!: Jan 16 2004, 06:44
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