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Topic: Vorbis Listening Test (Read 77610 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #100
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Sorry, but I am a little confused... 

At the risk of jumping the gun, what 'q' settings should be used for aoTuV vs GT3b2? (like q0-q4 = aoTuv; > q4 = GT3b2)

Also, is a merger between these two encoders being proposed???

At q 4 and below, aoTuV is definitely the better encoder (since GT3b2 at q < 5 is similar to 1.0.1 which has been shown in the listening tests here to be the worst).  Above q 4, things are a bit confusing.  GT3b2 addresses pre-echo problems but has no effect on HF boost/hiss at q 5.  I'm not too familiar with aoTuV (perhaps Aoyumi can answer this) but I think the HF problems are addressed at q > 4 and pre-echo handling has been tweaked with respect to 1.0.1

A merger appears the likely solution though after I merged my pre-echo tunings in QKTune beta 3.2 with aoTuV, results weren't as I had expected. 

If no-one is working on a aoTuV+GT3b2 merger at the moment, I'm willing to do that.


EDIT:  After having a peek at the source, looks like  aoTuV does include changes that affect pre-echo (possibly at q 6, 7, 8, 9).  So a merge with GT3b2 will cause conflict.  I suggest someone test aoTuV at these higher q's to see how it performs

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #101
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After having a peek at the source, looks like aoTuV does include changes that affect pre-echo (possibly at q 6, 7, 8, 9).

The changed part of aoTuV influences in all the bit rates.
And it will make it hard to be audible in quantization noise (include pre-echo). 

Although the pre-echo tuning by the high bit rate may be effective, balance may be broken down conversely.
However, it may have worth of a challenge.

By the way, the present aoTuV is the experiment version and is still due to change. 

[Postscript]
I'm sorry, it had mistaken.  The measure against pre-echo was slightly made after q6 of aoTuV. I forgot this.
However, original post is a fact again. 

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #102
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I have build a complete set of aoTuV RPMs for RedHat 9... please let me know if anybody is interested.

There are also Debian packages available at RareWares.

Of course, people will only be able to reach it once the host goes back online 

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #103
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If no-one is working on a aoTuV+GT3b2 merger at the moment, I'm willing to do that.

Why don't you, Aoyumi, Nyaochi and whoever else is interested start a Sourceforge project where you can work together? Then, it won't be needed to later come up with hackish merges of each branch's best tunings.

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #104
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Why don't you, Aoyumi, Nyaochi and whoever else is interested start a Sourceforge project where you can work together? Then, it won't be needed to later come up with hackish merges of each branch's best tunings.

It seems QuantumKnot is (was?) interested:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=19131&

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #105
Hi !

Could someone provide ogg librairies (ogg.dll, vorbis.dll, vorbisenc.dll, vorbisfile.dll) from aoTuV, Modest Tuning beta 3, QKTb3.2, and GT3b2-HF reduction encoders ??

10x

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #106
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Hi !

Could someone provide ogg librairies (ogg.dll, vorbis.dll, vorbisenc.dll, vorbisfile.dll) from aoTuV, Modest Tuning beta 3, QKTb3.2, and GT3b2-HF reduction encoders ??

10x


QKTune beta 3.2:  http://www.rarewares.org/quantumknot/vorbisqk32-dlls.zip
aoTuV:  http://www.rarewares.org/quantumknot/aoTuV-dlls.zip

I'll compile the other two later when I have time

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #107
Ok...Thank you very much QK

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #108
The fact of changing dll improve the quality we listen musics or theses dll impoves just the quality at the encoding ?
For example, if we want to listen a file with winamp and the music is encoded by aoTuv or  QKTune, the sound will be better if we update dll ?
Or even if I keept always the same dll, musics encoded by ogg vorbis (futurs versions) will be always compatible ?
An other example  , in games likes UT2003 if I replace currents dll by theses news dll, the sound will be better ?

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #109
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The fact of changing dll improve the quality we listen musics or theses dll impoves just the quality at the encoding ?

These dlls don't  improve the quality of decoding. It is only encoding. 

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #110
aoTuV beta2 was released.
Some problems should have improved.
This beta2 believes that I am better than an experiment version. 
aoTuV page

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #111
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aoTuV beta2 was released.

Good news.  Thanks alot for your work!

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #112
Wonderful !    Have you already make test to compare with the previous version of  aoTuv and the other encoders ?

The bitrate of the files encoded by this version seems perfect !

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #113
This encoder will may chose for the multiformat test ?

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #114
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This encoder will may chose for the multiformat test ?

It would be good for some people to do some listening tests first.  The idea of including a 3rd party Vorbis tuning into the multiformat listening test is still up for debate.

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #115
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This encoder will may chose for the multiformat test ?

It would be good for some people to do some listening tests first.  The idea of including a 3rd party Vorbis tuning into the multiformat listening test is still up for debate.

I thought it was already decided that the previous aoTuV encoder would be used in the listening test? The decision was based on the Vorbis listening test result, wasn't it?

Roberto should have the appropriate encoder now:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=202430

Frankly I don't understand why this is still being debated. As you already hinted, if we want to use another encoder we should first conduct a new listening test. I don't think there's time for that now.

Why don't we stop discussing this and just stick to the encoder that won the Vorbis listening test?
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #116
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Why don't we stop discussing this and just stick to the encoder that won the Vorbis listening test?

because we want vorbis to behave as good as possible

someone could also critize that we didnt test the first alpha version of aotuv, people often simply assume that new versions are better (of course it can be questioned if this is correct always)

still i dont really have time to run such a test atm
did rjamorim already announce when the test will start? or does he already prepare the samples?
I know, that I know nothing (Socrates)

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #117
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did rjamorim already announce when the test will start?

Next wednesday - hopefully

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #118
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Why don't we stop discussing this and just stick to the encoder that won the Vorbis listening test?

because we want vorbis to behave as good as possible

That's exactly why we shouldn't rush to get the newest encoder included. It first needs to be tested. There is always a risk that flaws got introduced.

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someone could also critize that we didnt test the first alpha version of aotuv, people often simply assume that new versions are better (of course it can be questioned if this is correct always)

That has nothing to do with my argument. Because of the importance of the encoder choice, the decision was made to perform a Vorbis listening test. The test is finished, the winning codec was chosen, everybody agreed. End of story.

If we discard this choice for a newly released encoder, then why perform the listening test in the first place? And since Roberto wants to start the test next week we don't have time to organize a new test.

Therefor, my recommendation is not to take any chances and stick with the winner of the listening test.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #119
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Have you already make test to compare with the previous version of aoTuv and the other encoders ?

The all-inclusive comparison test with other encoders is omitted.
However, it tunes up so that it may become an original sound more with my ear closely.
An important thing is how you feel by testing this. 

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This encoder will may chose for the multiformat test ?

Since a new version regards me as better, I want to recommend this.
However, the opinion of other people is important. 

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #120
Aoyumi's personal results correlate almost perfectly with the average results for the group (harashin, bond, guru, aoyumi, and nyaochi, with extra results on Waiting.wav for LoFiYo and Mac).  Here are the averages for the group:

101CVS 3.02
AoTuV 3.87
Mtb3 3.26
QKTune 3.74
GT3_HFR 3.75

And here are Aoyumi's personal averages:

101CVS 3.3
AoTuV 4.2
Mtb3 3.5
QKTune 4.0
GT3_HFR 4.0

Correlation is 0.997, which is the highest of any individual who participated in the listening test.  The other correlations were:

bond:  0.98
guru: 0.36
nyaochi: 0.94

So, if Aoyumi personally tested all 12 samples with the beta 2 version against the older version to form his opinion, then it is very likely that the group would agree with his opinion.

ff123

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #121
Is there something wrong with my results?

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So, if Aoyumi personally tested all 12 samples with the beta 2 version against the older version to form his opinion, then it is very likely that the group would agree with his opinion.

I agree with that.

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #122
But it's not clear that Aoyumi tested all 12 samples to form his opinion.

ff123

Edit:  Oops, Harashin had scrolled off my Excel screen.  His correlation was 0.91 with the group (his numbers had been included in the group averages in my first post, so I didn't actually leave him out).

Edit:  pretty much anybody who tested all 12 samples except guru, is likely to produce results which the group can agree with.  Such a test can be shorter, since only beta2 needs to be compared against the older version, but it should include all 12 samples.

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #123
So, what's the deal? Which codec should I use? It's not very clear from this theme. The freedom of choice is not, what I need. I wanna know, which codec showed best results. Is there such page ready? And is GTune 3 beta 2 + QKTune beta 3.2 EXPERIMENTAL going to be tested?

Vorbis Listening Test

Reply #124
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aoTuV beta2 was released.

updated RareWares Debian Packages available now, too
(html updates to come later, as always unfortunately...)


later