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Opus 1.1-beta, Officially released
saratoga
post Jul 16 2013, 19:30
Post #26





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Member No.: 3264



QUOTE (ChronoSphere @ Jul 16 2013, 14:06) *
I got the dev build for clip+, the option is "frequency" in "playback settings", right? Is it planned to make the behaviour more flexible, i.e. switch mixer frequency automatically depending on input? Sorry for OT, but why does that have to be a manual switch process in the first place


Probably not anytime soon. Changing the frequency during playback is nontrivial, and probably not a great idea given that it involves actually reclocking hardware which is difficult to do without a fairly long pause and a lot of software complexity. As far as I know, pretty much no operating system actually does that. Most force the mixer to operate at a single sampling rate and then resample everything to that before mixing. Given a good resampler there isn't much argument for doing otherwise. Making the rate customizable is just for people who exclusively use Opus, DVD rips, etc.
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ChronoSphere
post Jul 16 2013, 19:38
Post #27





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I see. So the switch is there to conserve power otherwise "wasted" by resampling.

BTW, is there any reason there is no option/automatic calculation of the audio checksum? Is it because opus is aimed at realtime usage scenarios/packet loss masking?
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ChronoSphere
post Jul 17 2013, 12:09
Post #28





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Well, since editing is not possible, here's the new run with SVN rockbox/opus 1.1:

CODE
# This plugin will log your battery performance in a
# file (//battery_bench.txt) every minute.
# To properly test your battery:
# 1) Select and playback an album. (Be sure to be more than the player's buffer)
# 2) Set to repeat.
# 3) Let the player run completely out of battery.
# 4) Recharge and copy (or whatever you want) the txt file to your computer.
# Now you can make graphs with the data of the battery log.
# Do not enter another plugin during the test or else the
# logging activity will end.

# P.S: You can decide how you will make your tests.
# Just don't open another plugin to be sure that your log will continue.

# Battery bench run for Sandisk Sansa Clip+ version 5ba7e2c-130716

# Battery type: 290 mAh Buffer Entries: 1000
# Rockbox has been running for 00:30:51
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06:46:42, 24402, 036%, 05:29, 3756, -, -, -
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06:57:42, 25062, 034%, 05:11, 3751, -, -, -
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07:01:42, 25302, 034%, 05:11, 3749, -, -, -
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07:07:43, 25663, 033%, 05:02, 3746, -, -, -
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07:27:53, 26873, 030%, 04:34, 3735, -, -, -
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08:45:38, 31538, 015%, 02:17, 3678, -, -, -
08:46:38, 31598, 015%, 02:17, 3678, -, -, -
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08:50:38, 31838, 014%, 02:08, 3675, -, -, -
08:51:38, 31898, 014%, 02:08, 3674, -, -, -
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08:55:38, 32138, 013%, 01:59, 3671, -, -, -
08:56:38, 32198, 013%, 01:59, 3672, -, -, -
08:57:38, 32258, 013%, 01:59, 3671, -, -, -
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09:00:38, 32438, 013%, 01:59, 3670, -, -, -
09:01:38, 32498, 013%, 01:59, 3670, -, -, -
09:02:38, 32558, 013%, 01:59, 3671, -, -, -
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09:04:38, 32678, 013%, 01:59, 3669, -, -, -
09:05:38, 32738, 013%, 01:59, 3669, -, -, -
09:06:38, 32798, 013%, 01:59, 3669, -, -, -
09:07:38, 32858, 012%, 01:49, 3667, -, -, -
09:08:39, 32919, 013%, 01:59, 3668, -, -, -
09:09:39, 32979, 013%, 01:59, 3668, -, -, -
09:10:39, 33039, 012%, 01:49, 3667, -, -, -
09:11:39, 33099, 012%, 01:49, 3666, -, -, -
09:12:39, 33159, 012%, 01:49, 3665, -, -, -
09:13:39, 33219, 012%, 01:49, 3665, -, -, -
09:14:39, 33279, 012%, 01:49, 3664, -, -, -
09:15:39, 33339, 012%, 01:49, 3663, -, -, -
09:16:39, 33399, 012%, 01:49, 3664, -, -, -
09:17:39, 33459, 011%, 01:40, 3662, -, -, -
09:18:39, 33519, 011%, 01:40, 3661, -, -, -
09:19:39, 33579, 011%, 01:40, 3661, -, -, -
09:20:39, 33639, 011%, 01:40, 3662, -, -, -
09:21:39, 33699, 011%, 01:40, 3661, -, -, -
09:22:39, 33759, 011%, 01:40, 3660, -, -, -
09:23:39, 33819, 011%, 01:40, 3658, -, -, -
09:24:39, 33879, 010%, 01:31, 3656, -, -, -
09:25:39, 33939, 010%, 01:31, 3655, -, -, -
09:26:39, 33999, 010%, 01:31, 3653, -, -, -
09:27:39, 34059, 009%, 01:22, 3652, -, -, -
09:28:39, 34119, 009%, 01:22, 3649, -, -, -
09:29:39, 34179, 009%, 01:22, 3647, -, -, -
09:30:39, 34239, 009%, 01:22, 3641, -, -, -
09:31:39, 34299, 009%, 01:22, 3638, -, -, -
09:32:39, 34359, 009%, 01:22, 3633, -, -, -
09:33:39, 34419, 009%, 01:22, 3630, -, -, -
09:34:39, 34479, 009%, 01:22, 3624, -, -, -
09:35:39, 34539, 009%, 01:22, 3619, -, -, -
09:36:39, 34599, 008%, 01:13, 3615, -, -, -
09:37:39, 34659, 008%, 01:13, 3609, -, -, -
09:38:39, 34719, 008%, 01:13, 3603, -, -, -
09:39:39, 34779, 008%, 01:13, 3596, -, -, -
09:40:39, 34839, 008%, 01:13, 3591, -, -, -
09:41:39, 34899, 008%, 01:13, 3583, -, -, -
09:42:39, 34959, 007%, 01:04, 3575, -, -, -
09:43:39, 35019, 007%, 01:04, 3571, -, -, -
09:44:39, 35079, 007%, 01:04, 3562, -, -, -
09:45:39, 35139, 007%, 01:04, 3554, -, -, -
09:46:39, 35199, 007%, 00:59, 3548, -, -, -
09:47:39, 35259, 006%, 00:54, 3538, -, -, -
09:48:39, 35319, 006%, 00:54, 3530, -, -, -
09:49:39, 35379, 006%, 00:54, 3520, -, -, -
09:50:39, 35439, 006%, 00:54, 3512, -, -, -
09:50:40, 35440, 005%, 00:50, 3511, -, -, -
09:51:40, 35500, 005%, 00:45, 3501, -, -, -
09:52:40, 35560, 005%, 00:45, 3492, -, -, -
09:53:40, 35620, 005%, 00:45, 3481, -, -, -
09:54:40, 35680, 004%, 00:36, 3470, -, -, -
09:55:40, 35740, 004%, 00:36, 3458, -, -, -
09:56:40, 35800, 004%, 00:36, 3447, -, -, -
09:57:40, 35860, 003%, 00:27, 3432, -, -, -
09:58:40, 35920, 003%, 00:27, 3419, -, -, -
09:59:40, 35980, 002%, 00:18, 3404, -, -, -
10:00:40, 36040, 002%, 00:18, 3389, -, -, -
10:01:40, 36100, 002%, 00:18, 3371, -, -, -
10:02:40, 36160, 001%, 00:09, 3352, -, -, -
10:03:40, 36220, 000%, 00:09, 3334, -, -, -
10:04:40, 36280, 000%, 00:09, 3311, -, -, -
--Battery bench ended, reason: power off--


Basically, same runtime as before. Mixer was set to 48kHz, files are vbr@160kbps

edit: Or not. It seems the voltage is dropping slightly faster in the new run. Here's the old one for comparison:
CODE
# This plugin will log your battery performance in a
# file (//battery_bench.txt) every minute.
# To properly test your battery:
# 1) Select and playback an album. (Be sure to be more than the player's buffer)
# 2) Set to repeat.
# 3) Let the player run completely out of battery.
# 4) Recharge and copy (or whatever you want) the txt file to your computer.
# Now you can make graphs with the data of the battery log.
# Do not enter another plugin during the test or else the
# logging activity will end.

# P.S: You can decide how you will make your tests.
# Just don't open another plugin to be sure that your log will continue.

# Battery bench run for Sandisk Sansa Clip+ version 3.13

# Battery type: 290 mAh Buffer Entries: 1000
# Rockbox has been running for 00:01:20
# Time:, Seconds:, Level:, Time Left:, Voltage[mV]:, C:, S:, U:
00:00:00, 00000, 100%, 15:15, 4146, -, -, -
00:01:00, 00060, 100%, 15:15, 4147, -, -, -
00:02:00, 00120, 100%, 15:15, 4145, -, -, -
00:03:00, 00180, 100%, 15:15, 4143, -, -, -
00:04:00, 00240, 100%, 15:15, 4141, -, -, -
00:05:00, 00300, 099%, 15:06, 4139, -, -, -
00:06:00, 00360, 099%, 15:06, 4138, -, -, -
00:07:00, 00420, 099%, 15:06, 4137, -, -, -
00:08:00, 00480, 099%, 15:06, 4134, -, -, -
00:09:00, 00540, 099%, 15:06, 4132, -, -, -
00:10:00, 00600, 098%, 14:57, 4130, -, -, -
00:11:00, 00660, 098%, 14:57, 4130, -, -, -
00:12:00, 00720, 098%, 14:57, 4128, -, -, -
00:13:00, 00780, 098%, 14:57, 4127, -, -, -
00:14:00, 00840, 098%, 14:57, 4125, -, -, -
00:15:00, 00900, 098%, 14:57, 4124, -, -, -
00:16:00, 00960, 097%, 14:48, 4121, -, -, -
00:17:00, 01020, 097%, 14:48, 4120, -, -, -
00:18:00, 01080, 097%, 14:48, 4119, -, -, -
00:19:00, 01140, 097%, 14:48, 4118, -, -, -
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--Battery bench ended, reason: power off--


This post has been edited by ChronoSphere: Jul 17 2013, 12:16
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hidn
post Jul 17 2013, 12:57
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a lot of codecs and lack of support
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Dynamic
post Jul 17 2013, 17:10
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I think these improvements and the fact we have Monty's demo page to explain and demonstrate them and provide as a reference, and in particular the tuning to improve the poor harpsichord performance from the 2011 HydrogenAudio 64kbps Multiformat Test, these changes are notable enough to include in the Wikipedia page and mention in the HA Wiki too.

I'll probably briefly detail that 1.1 beta was released on 12th July 2013 and includes improvements to:
  • Surround encoding bitrate allocation
  • LFE quality & efficiency improvements
  • Surround cross-channel masking
  • Tonality estimation and bitrate boost improves quality for tonal music like harpsichord
  • Automated speech/music detection
  • Lookahead-enabled enhanced detection for non-realtime encoding
  • Stereo saving - improved efficiency when stereo channels more closely correlated
  • Dynamic allocation - for transients and extremely strong signals next to near-silent bands
  • DC rejection - removes inaudible 0-3Hz frequencies to improve bass analysis
  • True unconstrained VBR - much freer to vary bitrate to maintain consistent quality
  • Temporal VBR - an accidental discovery that improves quality on a number of samples
  • Speed - encoding and decoding optimizations e.g. 74% and 27% speed-up on ARM



--------------------
Dynamic the artist formerly known as DickD
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greynol
post Jul 17 2013, 17:37
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QUOTE (hidn @ Jul 17 2013, 04:57) *
a lot of codecs and lack of support

Are you seeking help or is this post asking to be binned?


--------------------
I should publish a list of forum idiots.
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Dynamic
post Jul 17 2013, 18:21
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I have edited the History section of the English Wikipedia Opus (audio format) page to summarise the improvements and link to Monty's beta release information.
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saratoga
post Jul 18 2013, 01:45
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QUOTE (Dynamic @ Jul 17 2013, 13:21) *
I have edited the History section of the English Wikipedia Opus (audio format) page to summarise the improvements and link to Monty's beta release information.


Should the spectrogram on that page really be included?
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jensend
post Jul 18 2013, 07:50
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Jul 16 2013, 11:08) *
QUOTE (jensend @ Jul 16 2013, 11:32) *
There'd be some more savings (6-9MHz on a Clip?? ask saratoga) if Rockbox could build 48kHz-native firmware images and thus never have to resample Opus rather than always resampling to 44.1.
This is now committed, and 48k output works on most devices. Keep in mind though its either/or, so don't use 48k as the mixer frequency if you have a lot of 44.1k mp3 files.
Great, hadn't noticed that yet! I'll do a test of 48kHz Opus LP audiobook battery life on a Clip Zip and post the results.
QUOTE (saratoga @ Jul 17 2013, 18:45) *
Should the spectrogram on that page really be included?
No.

A spectrogram to try to illustrate the energy preservation, spreading, etc is a worthwhile idea; Monty used one in his first CELT demo page. Using a spectrogram to illustrate the bitrate - lowpass map behavior on a bitrate sweep isn't necessarily an awful idea either.

But those spectrograms were (as you can tell at a glance) made from a bad sample that clips all over the place, they have no scale or axes or anything else to help readers get any useful information out of them, and both the time scale and the image scale help obscure things even more. (I doubt one spectrogram could really do a good job at both of the claimed tasks anyways- the timescales for best seeing those two effects are different.)

This guy uploaded 40 of these ~8MB full-song spectrogram PNGs (different bitrates and formats) and inserted them in both the English and German Opus wiki pages; he's done dozens of other edits to the pages in both languages. Enthusiastic, I guess.
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saratoga
post Jul 18 2013, 18:22
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QUOTE (jensend @ Jul 18 2013, 02:50) *
A spectrogram to try to illustrate the energy preservation, spreading, etc is a worthwhile idea; Monty used one in his first CELT demo page.


Is that even the same measurement though? I think that link you showed is a pulse or test signal at very low bitrate. The wiki page is actual music at high bitrate. Looking at how a filterbank processes a known signal makes a lot of sense. Looking at how an entire codec processes actual music with a spectrogram is just silly.

QUOTE (jensend @ Jul 18 2013, 02:50) *
This guy uploaded 40 of these ~8MB full-song spectrogram PNGs (different bitrates and formats) and inserted them in both the English and German Opus wiki pages; he's done dozens of other edits to the pages in both languages. Enthusiastic, I guess.


Honestly, I'm not even sure what that figure is supposed to show. How much orange color opus has???
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jensend
post Jul 18 2013, 22:58
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QUOTE (saratoga @ Jul 18 2013, 11:22) *
Is that even the same measurement though? I think that link you showed is a pulse or test signal at very low bitrate. The wiki page is actual music at high bitrate. Looking at how a filterbank processes a known signal makes a lot of sense. Looking at how an entire codec processes actual music with a spectrogram is just silly.

Monty's spectrograms aren't of a pulse or artificial test signal, they're of speech- you can easily see the formants and the consonants. (In fact, looking closely, it's probably the word "times" and the first vowel of the next word.) Neither is it just a filterbank- it's the full codecs at 32kbps. There's nothing silly about this. Spectrograms are not a quality measure but they do convey a lot of worthwhile information at a glance. Having an allergic reaction to a spectrogram of codec output is just irrational.

Monty's spectrogram shows instantly that MP3 does not preserve band energy, that CELT's spreading rotations avoid the "tinkling" (spectral collapse, alternation between quantizing to zero and popping above the threshhold) seen in MP3 and to a lesser extent in Vorbis, and that the folding allows CELT to code fullband at 32kbps. It's clear and succinct and efficient evidence of these things. Yes, a spectrogram can't tell you how much of an effect these things have on audible quality- so what?

I'm not trying to defend the wikipedia figure here; I'm saying that the purposes that it claims to have (as per the caption) are possibly worthwhile but the figure is terrible. It claims to show band energy preservation, but to show enough detail to be able to tell that on a clip this long it'd have to be zoomed in horizontally about 200x and vertically about 4x. The author created it to show bitrate vs lowpass behavior- it's a bitrate sweep from 32 to 160kbps- but since it has no bitrate axis it tells you nothing by itself; it's marginally informative if you look at it next to the figures he made for other codecs, but it's a very inefficient way of conveying that information. Also, the frequent clipping obscures the bitrate vs lowpass information since it's riddled with spikes.
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Dynamic
post Jul 19 2013, 21:22
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That spectrogram has been there since I started editing the page (mainly to provide References via Google Scholar search and to explain the use cases).

If you click through the image, you can compare the same file with other codecs. It would be sensible to mention that spectrograms of lossy codecs are not especially indicative of audio fidelity.

I would say it's far less informative than an animation such as that used for the bitrate sweep on the Opus Codec Example page. I note that the CC attribution license of that site may allow use of the content on Wikipedia - e.g. a video of that example sweep or a simple animation without sound.

The other thing that's usefully shown in spectrograms is illustration of some of the technical detail in the CELT development pages, but that's too in-depth for Wikipedia.


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darkbyte
post Jul 27 2013, 14:32
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I've encoded my collection with the new beta at 96kbps VBR setting and i should say that i really like what i hear. I've listened to these files all week with my Beyer DT-770 and my Fiio E10 while programming and artifacts were very rare.

One of the bad quality tracks i've found was Das Boot from U96. For me it seems like a pre-echo problem on the synth percussions when they're played on the left channel only. I can't upload a sample now but i'll do it tomorrow.

What i've also noticed is that if i downmix stereo opus files into mono there's often a weird warbling introduced in the mid-high range. I think it's mostly noticeable on files with complex stereo separation and high tonal content. I know it's not a typical use case but i'm listening to music through an USB FM transmitter when i'm at my parents house and when a receiver is far away from the transmitter it falls back to Mono. I've thought that the transmitter is making the distortion but if i add a Mono downmix DSP into Foobar it yields the same problem on my headphones (FM stereo transmits mono signal by mixing L+R together for backward compatibility with old receivers and sends an L-R sideband signal for stereo reconstruction but that's only available when the signal is strong enough). Is there anything i can do to improve this or this is the price of the channel masking of Opus?

This post has been edited by darkbyte: Jul 27 2013, 14:58


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IgorC
post Jul 28 2013, 15:56
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There is a paper that describes how Opus (CELT part) actually works. Found it interesting smile.gif
http://jmvalin.ca/papers/aes135_opus_celt.pdf
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jmvalin
post Jul 28 2013, 17:32
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QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 27 2013, 09:32) *
One of the bad quality tracks i've found was Das Boot from U96. For me it seems like a pre-echo problem on the synth percussions when they're played on the left channel only. I can't upload a sample now but i'll do it tomorrow.


Is this sample worse with 1.1-beta than 1.0.x or is it just one on which Opus doesn't handle well. In either case, I'm still interesting in having a look.

QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 27 2013, 09:32) *
What i've also noticed is that if i downmix stereo opus files into mono there's often a weird warbling introduced in the mid-high range. I think it's mostly noticeable on files with complex stereo separation and high tonal content.


If you mean that your downmixing the decoded stereo audio to mono, then it's a known issue. What happens is that Opus is able to encode intensity stereo with channels being 180 degrees out of phase. The result is that when you downmix to mono, you get partial cancellation. It's possible to hack the encoder to not have that issue, but we're also looking at the possibility of letting the decoder downmix differently to avoid the issue.

QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 27 2013, 09:32) *
Is there anything i can do to improve this or this is the price of the channel masking of Opus?


Actually, this has nothing to do with channel masking. Channel masking is only used for surround, not for stereo.
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darkbyte
post Jul 29 2013, 11:31
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QUOTE (jmvalin @ Jul 28 2013, 18:32) *
Is this sample worse with 1.1-beta than 1.0.x or is it just one on which Opus doesn't handle well. In either case, I'm still interesting in having a look.

I haven't tested this sample with 1.0. Sorry i haven't got time yesterday to upload it, i'll try to do it tonight.

QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 27 2013, 09:32) *
If you mean that your downmixing the decoded stereo audio to mono, then it's a known issue. What happens is that Opus is able to encode intensity stereo with channels being 180 degrees out of phase. The result is that when you downmix to mono, you get partial cancellation. It's possible to hack the encoder to not have that issue, but we're also looking at the possibility of letting the decoder downmix differently to avoid the issue.

Yes, that's exactly what's happening. I'm playing the Opus files in Foobar and the FM transmitter does the downmixing (L+R) for the mono subcarrier. Going lower in bitrate makes things even worse. With the new 1.1 encoder @96kbps it's not that easily noticable but it's still annoying on those complex spots. Thanks for explaining, i hope there will be a solution. Because it requires a new decoder it'll take time for a fixed version to get into player applications. I hope that the Foobar team will upgrade quickly smile.gif

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darkbyte
post Jul 29 2013, 17:20
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Uploaded the lossless and opus 1.1-beta encoded sample here: Das Boot


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darkbyte
post Jul 31 2013, 20:38
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I'm reading the documentation IgorC linked and just got noticed that Opus has an intensity stereo encoding mode.
"When set, we invert the right channel, producing two channels 180 degrees out of phase."
Does that mean that the mono downmix problem occurs at those spots where Opus encodes with IS? If it's so is there a way to disable IS and use Mid-Side Stereo / Stereo only when encoding? I wonder if it's possible is the VBR algorithm smart enough to choose a higher bitrate when IS is not available and forced to use MS/S modes. smile.gif

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jmvalin
post Jul 31 2013, 22:33
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QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 31 2013, 15:38) *
I'm reading the documentation IgorC linked and just got noticed that Opus has an intensity stereo encoding mode.
"When set, we invert the right channel, producing two channels 180 degrees out of phase."
Does that mean that the mono downmix problem occurs at those spots where Opus encodes with IS? If it's so is there a way to disable IS and use Mid-Side Stereo / Stereo only when encoding? I wonder if it's possible is the VBR algorithm smart enough to choose a higher bitrate when IS is not available and forced to use MS/S modes. smile.gif


Even simpler, you can actually hack the encoder to never use the inversion (128-degree) flag when using IS. This avoids the downmix problem at a cost of slightly reduced stereo quality (but not as bad as disabling IS)
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Gainless
post Aug 1 2013, 22:21
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Jmvalin, while the new beta sounds in general pretty good there are still the old problems with tonality, especially sharp guitar strikes. It aren't a few killer samples, but a lot of acoustic guitar stuff that just isn't transparent at 192 kbps because of that, despite the use of the tonality detector. Do you see anything still possible for improvement on that?

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jmvalin
post Aug 2 2013, 08:32
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QUOTE (Gainless @ Aug 1 2013, 17:21) *
Jmvalin, while the new beta sounds in general pretty good there are still the old problems with tonality, especially sharp guitar strikes. It aren't a few killer samples, but a lot of acoustic guitar stuff that just isn't transparent at 192 kbps because of that, despite the use of the tonality detector. Do you see anything still possible for improvement on that?


It's probably still possible to do better. It's a matter of understanding the cause for each sample (it could be a different reason for each). If you want to play around with the code you can try changing the amount of boosting to see what difference it makes. Among the possible causes, there's "not enough boost", but also the tonality detector itself not triggering (enough), or some allocation issue.
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Gainless
post Aug 2 2013, 20:01
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QUOTE (jmvalin @ Aug 2 2013, 09:32) *
QUOTE (Gainless @ Aug 1 2013, 17:21) *
Jmvalin, while the new beta sounds in general pretty good there are still the old problems with tonality, especially sharp guitar strikes. It aren't a few killer samples, but a lot of acoustic guitar stuff that just isn't transparent at 192 kbps because of that, despite the use of the tonality detector. Do you see anything still possible for improvement on that?


It's probably still possible to do better. It's a matter of understanding the cause for each sample (it could be a different reason for each). If you want to play around with the code you can try changing the amount of boosting to see what difference it makes. Among the possible causes, there's "not enough boost", but also the tonality detector itself not triggering (enough), or some allocation issue.

The tonality detector is doing fine at boosting, at least for the guitar stuff I've mentioned. The problem is more that certain types of tonality seem to be particulartly hard to code, e.g. resonance/fuzz from lower acoustic strings (which I've also mentioned here), and would need some extra boost. But I guess it would be pretty hard to make a detector for such special cases.

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darkbyte
post Aug 7 2013, 17:48
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QUOTE (jmvalin @ Jul 31 2013, 23:33) *
Even simpler, you can actually hack the encoder to never use the inversion (128-degree) flag when using IS. This avoids the downmix problem at a cost of slightly reduced stereo quality (but not as bad as disabling IS)

Is it possible to alter flags in an already encoded file? It would be a lot faster than reencode the whole set.


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post Aug 8 2013, 10:38
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QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 29 2013, 12:31) *
QUOTE (jmvalin @ Jul 28 2013, 18:32) *

QUOTE (darkbyte @ Jul 27 2013, 09:32) *
if i downmix stereo opus files into mono there's often a weird warbling introduced in the mid-high range.

It's possible to hack the encoder to not have that issue, but we're also looking at the possibility of letting the decoder downmix differently to avoid the issue.

Thanks for explaining, i hope there will be a solution.

I'm also hoping for a solution.

I also once stumbled on this one. What I understood from the reactions to my "report" was more or less that "it is a feature, not a bug". I never stopped wondering though, because to me it seems a legitimate and widespread use case to have mono reproduction of an originally stereo signal. - I think of people playing stereo files on cell phones through a built-in mono speaker or some kind of single powered speaker attached to the device. And the sound degradation I witnessed was severe enough that it could actually make an audible difference even with the cell phone speaker...
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IgorC
post Aug 11 2013, 18:48
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QUOTE (Gainless @ Aug 1 2013, 18:21) *
Jmvalin, while the new beta sounds in general pretty good there are still the old problems with tonality, especially sharp guitar strikes. It aren't a few killer samples, but a lot of acoustic guitar stuff that just isn't transparent at 192 kbps because of that, despite the use of the tonality detector. Do you see anything still possible for improvement on that?


Gainless,

While your post was addressed to developer, let me express my humble observations about current development of Opus.

To begin with, there are not that much people who test Opus seriously and it's reviving seeing as You report and submit some samples/issues.


In my opinion during a development of codec it's necessary to compare to 2 things. 1) Previous versions and 2) Other lossy codecs. After all, it's lossy compression. There always be problematic samples and absence of these references ( (1) and (2) ) will always lead to conclusion that codec isn't enough good.

So let's see how current 1.1 beta does until now.
1) Comparison to previous 1.0 version.
1.1 beta is clearly better than 1.0, especially on tonal stuff. Of course it's possible to do better. You (and me too) have subscribed some samples where 1.1 isn't enough good on low frequency tonal parts. Perfection can take years while it's probably good to get 1.1 release quite soon as it's already significantly better. After all, 1.1 is a first development cycle after 1.0.

2) Comparison to other formats.
As far as I can say Opus is very competetive comparing to state-of-art AAC/HE-AAC, Vorbis and Musepack encoders at 64 kbps and higher (not so at rates <48 kbps where HE-AAC have strong positions). There is no actually format that can do any better than Opus overall and for an average listener with average preferences & hearing at 64 kbps and higher.


But then again, yes, Opus has a potential to do better. Let's hope for a comparable development after 1.1, too.

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