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What is and why: Cue Sheet?, ...always make one, not sure why(?!)
chemeye
post Oct 16 2005, 18:56
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Hi, It's been a while since my last post and activity on this great forum...

I have been happily ripping my CD collection using EAC>WAV>FLAC (Mostly using burst mode-test and copy +checking CRCS with good results on CDs in good condition.)

_First, I have dutifully pointed to "ACTION"----"Create CUE Sheet"----...created "Multiple WAV files with Gaps" and


_Second, "Test & Copy Selected Tracks"---"Compressed"---(...to FLAC @ -6)--As i said, using Burst.)

***??
My question/problem...
***??
What is a CUE Sheet?
When would I use it?--never have, as far as I know..
When people say "embedded CUE sheet"-- is this just adding the CUE sheet file to the ripped album file--along with the Logfile text document? >this is what I have been doing..
--I currently use Winamp to play my FLAC files...I have tried Foobar but I find Winamp more pleasant and ready-made. I used Foobar for a while but its endless customizability was overwhelming..
--When I open the CUE Sheet file I get this message:

INFO (CORE) : startup time: 172 ms
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
INFO (CORE) : opening file for playback :
INFO (CORE) : location: "file://C:\Documents and Settings\Compaq_Owner\My Documents\FLAC_Archive\Alice Cooper\Billion Dollar Babies- Deluxe Edition (Disc 2) (2001)\Billion Dollar Babies Deluxe Edition (Disc 2).CUE" (1)
ERROR (foo_input_std) : referenced file doesn't exist
ERROR (CORE) : error opening file for playback :
INFO (CORE) : location: "file://C:\Documents and Settings\Compaq_Owner\My Documents\FLAC_Archive\Alice Cooper\Billion Dollar Babies- Deluxe Edition (Disc 2) (2001)\Billion Dollar Babies Deluxe Edition (Disc 2).CUE" (1)

***********Is this wrong/bad?
I don't mind creating the CUE Sheet file every time, in case I need it in the future for some reason...what is that reason..? unsure.gif
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NogginJ
post Oct 16 2005, 19:09
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i personally use cue sheets to seperate long continous audio files like a dj mix or live set into individual 'tracks' in foobar or whatever....or for burning later on.

correct me if im wrong, but a cue sheet is just a very simple and easily understood (if you look at it in notepad) file that basically has time indexes written into it to split up one larger wav or mp3 or whatever. very handy.
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atici
post Oct 16 2005, 19:23
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First use Secure mode instead of Burst in EAC. That's what makes EAC special. Also press F4 to detect the gaps before ripping.

A cue sheet is a text file that contains all the track layout information of the CD. Therefore given the CD image, a cue sheet tells you at what point each individual track starts and the gaps between each. The reason everyone creates CUE sheets when ripping is because this is an essential piece of information about a CD -- especially if you want gapless playback or playback with the exact amount of gap as the artist intended. Thus if you know this information you can reproduce the CD verbatim in the future (if you also filled the drive offset correctly). If you embed this cuesheet to a single file rip then you can access individual tracks using foobar -- capturing all information on a CD in a single file. This is very logical, because you generally don't want to access parts of the information pertaining to the same album through separate files. It also has advantages for creating recovery files (PAR2).

The reason you get an error is the cue sheet, by default, points to the WAV file (which you probably have erased after compression). You can open the cue sheet with notepad and change the WAV extension into FLAC (or whatever extension you're using) in the following line:
CODE
FILE "<albumname>\CDImage.wav" WAVE

After that point everything will work smoothly.

This post has been edited by atici: Oct 16 2005, 21:06


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chemeye
post Oct 16 2005, 21:28
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QUOTE (atici @ Oct 16 2005, 02:23 PM)
First use Secure mode instead of Burst in EAC.  Also press F4 to detect the gaps before ripping.

The reason you get an error is the cue sheet, by default, points to the WAV file (which you probably have erased after compression). You can open the cue sheet by notepad and change the WAV extension into FLAC (or whatever extension you're using) in the following line:
CODE
FILE "<albumname>\CDImage.wav" WAVE

After that point everything will work smoothly.
*


___
OK, but what if I am not creating a CD Image? I prefer to rip each track..Is a cue sheet mostly for use with CD Image?

I know, I know..Secure mode..Secure Mode. I get fine results with Burst-if all CRCs match why wait?

When ripping in Secure Mode, each CD gioes at about 1.3X. I have 100s and 100s of CDs.. I'm getting about 17X in Burst

I do use Secure for a badly damaged CD, OR on an individual track basis -if I get an error in Burst.

I tried F4...and the "GAP" column does show the gap time/length..where as in all my CUE Sheets created before, the gaps are listed "unkown" on the EAC main screen. They ARE contained in the CUE Sheet-when opened with notepad-as you suggested-but, each file is listed like:FILE "<albumname>\CDImage.wav" WAVE

and I will not be changing each song file to .FLAC

Again, Is a CUE Sheet only used in conjunction with a CD Image file?
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atici
post Oct 16 2005, 21:44
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QUOTE (chemeye @ Oct 16 2005, 03:28 PM)
Again, Is a CUE Sheet only used in conjunction with a CD Image file?
*

Not necessarily. If in the future you want to burn the original CD (exactly) using your lossless files, you'd need the CUE sheet.

I think to create a CUE sheet, you should create as if the result is a single file image (Alt+O). This will create reference to a single file. But it is up to you.

In any case single file ripping has many advantages over multiple files and I'd suggest you seriously consider it before most of your albums are already ripped. You can create APL files in foobar to access individual tracks in the single file image. These files will work with WinAmp too (AFAIK You need to use Monkey's Audio for this feature to work in WinAmp). So you get the best of both worlds.

There're several discussions over this issue: thread 1, thread 2 (poll), thread 3.

This post has been edited by atici: Oct 16 2005, 21:48


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One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.
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chemeye
post Oct 16 2005, 21:47
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OK thanks for previous threads..I know it has been discussed many times before

I will read all and see where I am at that point.
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Lyx
post Oct 16 2005, 22:29
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Besides of what others said, here's a simplified description of what a cuesheet is:

It is like a playlist-file - but with some additional features. For example, the "entries" of the playlist can not just be individual files, but also "sections" of a file. Therefore, it is possible to take a single large 70min album-file, and split it into individual tracks. Another feature is that it can store the length of gaps between tracks.

So, think of it like a playlist-file, but specialized for "sets"(i.e. an album). Thus, although technically it has similiarities to playlists, it is not intended to be used as a playlist, but instead to act like an external "container" for albums, sets, etc.

Embedded cuesheet means that the cuesheet is stored as a tag inside of a file. This is useful in case of the "single-file-album"-scenario: instead of having the large music-file AND the *external-cuesheet*, you just store the cuesheet inside of the music-file as a tag.

Thus, normal cuesheets are external, while embedded cuesheets are internal.


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Martin H
post Oct 17 2005, 03:08
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QUOTE (chemeye @ Oct 16 2005, 10:28 PM)
OK,  but what if I am not creating a CD Image?  I prefer to rip each track..Is a cue sheet mostly for use with CD Image?

Cuesheet's can also be used with individual tracks... They just add some subchannel data used to display negative countdowns between tracks on a CD players display, if burned to audio CD, and for skipping the gaps if the tracks are played in random order(programmed play)... I rip to individual tracks myself, without cuesheet's, since i only care about getting the audio data and gaps extracted, but not about getting the gaps marked...
QUOTE
I know, I know..Secure mode..Secure Mode.  I get fine results with Burst-if all CRCs match why wait?

Burst mode + test & copy is just as safe as secure mode with no errors reported + 100% track quality, and it's faster than secure mode, on drives that caches audio...
QUOTE
I tried F4...and the "GAP" column does show the gap time/length..where as in all my CUE Sheets created before, the gaps are listed "unkown" on the EAC main screen. 

There's no need to press F4 before ripping...EAC rips from index 01 to index 01(in default mode), and EAC automatically detects gaps when making the cuesheet.

-Martin.
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chemeye
post Oct 17 2005, 06:51
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Martin H,

I think I too "only care about getting the audio data and gaps extracted, but not about getting the gaps marked..."

But you say :"There's no need to press F4 before ripping...EAC rips from index 01 to index 01(in default mode), and EAC automatically detects gaps when making the cuesheet."

If I (and you)don't make a Cue Sheet, the gaps are extracted from the CD through EAC anyway?
-A Cue sheet MARKS the gaps (for album reconstruction from a CD image?)and contains tag-like info about the CD/album? But ripping a CD with EAC to individual tracks still preserves the gaps?right?

Also, thank you for seconding my Burst Mode approach!--Secure mode is just way too slow for a CD that is in good shape.
I still use "Test & Copy" AND check the CRCs AND look for "no errors" message when extraction is complete.--If error is present, I re-extract/rip the problem track using Secure...Whoa!


*Could you briefly detail your CD ripping w/ EAC routine?Thanks
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Cosmo
post Oct 17 2005, 07:59
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Excellent wiki articles about Gaps and CUE Sheets:
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Gap_settings
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_CUE_Sheets
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dangerous_dom
post Oct 17 2005, 16:03
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Although i do have some issues with them which i hope to iron out soon, EAC and Foobar2000 are a match made in heaven.

What i always do is rip to single large FLAC file with a cue sheet. This allows me great flexibility as i can then re-encode to my choice of lossy file type for use on different MP3 players and software (with minimum loss of quality through transcoding from a one format to another. i.e Ogg to MP3 would not be great). Also have many CD's with require gapless playback.

I then play my CD's back by loading the CUE sheet into Foobar, which displays and plays my tracks as if they were separate files.

The great thing is, that if i wanted to take a couple of files out, say for use on my phones MP3 player) all i have to do is select the tracks from the playlist window and right click 'convert'. I then have some MP3's as separate files which were taken from one single large image with minimal loss of quality too. Great stuff smile.gif
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Drenholm
post Oct 18 2005, 08:50
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I agree! Do you use foobar2000 0.9 beta? It has support for almost all metadata that can be stored in cuesheets, so as well as titles and artists your tracks can have ISRCs/catalogs and common REM statements like GENRE, DATE or COMMENT. In fact the only thing I haven't noticed fb2k converting from a cuesheet to a tag on opening is the FLAGS field. There may be others though. The good thing is it will also automatically transfer all tags to MP3s.

(Incidentally, does foobar2000 0.9 still support the "index" Extra metadata field?)
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Martin H
post Oct 18 2005, 18:38
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QUOTE (chemeye @ Oct 17 2005, 07:51 AM)
If I (and you)don't make a Cue Sheet, the gaps are extracted from the CD through EAC anyway?

Yes, exactly...

The starting possitions of every track(index 01), is stored in the CDs TOC. EAC extracts from index 01 to index 01, which means that any index 00 possitions(pre-gaps), are appended to the end of the tracks... So if you extract without making cuesheet's(or detecting gaps), then you will have extracted all the audio data + the pre-gaps(exept hidden tracks in the pre-gap of track one). The index 00 possitions are not stored in the CDs TOC, but is located in the Q subchannel of the CD... When detecting gaps, then EAC scans linearly throughout the Q subchannel of the CD, to retrieve the index 00 possitions... A cuesheet only adds some subchannel info that is used to display negative countdowns between a CD-players display between tracks, and for skipping the gaps if the tracks are played in random order...

Here are some good threads about the need of making cuesheet's :

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....&t=3922&hl=gaps

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=20&t=1642
QUOTE
*Could you briefly detail your CD ripping w/ EAC routine?Thanks
*

I rip my CDs as individual tracks without making cuesheet's and without using offset correction...

Here is a great post from pio2001 about the use of offset correction :
http://www.digital-inn.de/showthread.php?threadid=4193

If a track fails secure mode, then i re-rip the track in a slower speed untill it's extracted error-free... This is also an advantage of ripping to individual tracks instead of images, since if i made images then i would have to re-rip the entire CD if there where a single error, but with individual tracks then i just re-rip the single problem track... After EAC has ripped and encoded the CD and placed it in a folder named Artist (Year) Album, then i load the album into foobar and ReplayGain it, and then i correct the tags...

-Martin.
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