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Topic: All wavs to flac or leave wav? (Read 17656 times) previous topic - next topic
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All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Might there be any risk, drawback, a reason to not to convert all of my wav files to flac? I have thousands of wavs on the drive and want to free some space on the hard drives.

Is there any further advantage of converting wav files to flac (or just the one to need less space)?

And which program should I use? EAC? Foobar? Or is there any better one?

Can tags be added automatically to the new flac flies?
Newest stable foobar, portable | Win 7

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #1 –
Personally I favor FLAC
WAV can be tagged but when switching to another media player you might hit problems as support for WAV tagging is a mess.
You don’t have this problem with FLAC
FLAC also has a checksum, it allows you to verify the integrity of the audio.

If there are tags in the WAV ( depends on the program you have used) Foobar will probably transfer them. Another candidate is dBpoweramp, a very reliable and fast format converter.
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Moto on
Is there any further advantage of converting wav files to flac (or just the one to need less space)?

I guess the other main advantage would be the superior system for metadata.

Beyond that, it may have other minor advantages. For one, FLAC provides file integrity checks via checksums. For another (and contrary to what you might expect), FLAC playback may be less resource-intensive than WAV playback. Yes, you need some CPU time to decode FLACs whereas WAVs don't require decoding. However, the smaller file size of FLAC makes it less I/O intensive.

EDIT -- I type slow, I guess; I wrote this without noticing the previous reply.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Moto on
Might there be any risk, drawback, a reason to not to convert all of my wav files to flac? I have thousands of wavs on the drive and want to free some space on the hard drives.

Is there any further advantage of converting wav files to flac (or just the one to need less space)?

And which program should I use? EAC? Foobar? Or is there any better one?

Can tags be added automatically to the new flac flies?


I also find FLAC very reliable and compatible with all my devices. If you are into Apple (or use iTunes to organize your music), ALAC is also quite good. ALAC is Apple's own implementation of FLAC. You can convert your WAV files into either format easily with Foobar2000, which I use and favour completely.
lossyWAV -q H | FLAC -5 ~= 480kbps
QAAC 320kbps

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #4 –
Let me start by saying I use pretty much nothing but FLAC for my primary library so I'm a fan.

A few warnings though; do not blanket convert all wav files on the machine to FLAC because you may have some applications or games which store their audio files as wav files and converting them will break things. Just contain any such conversions to your library, or known locations which avoid such potential problems.

The other issue is data integrity. FLAC offers a checksum which will tell you if a file has become corrupted due to storage errors, etc. That's great, but it won't fix the file. By default FLAC won't decode such files. You can force it to decode through the errors but what you end up with may be entirely useless. Even if it decodes through the errors the damage will likely be much larger than it would in a raw wav file since via compression the errors are amplified.

I eliminate this risk by storing my library on a file system which can detect and correct such errors on the fly (ZFS using mirrored VDEVs).

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #5 –
Another vote here for converting to FLAC from WAV.

Metadata is a very useful thing to have and a very aggravating thing to lose. Especially if you have spent valuable time correcting the often shoddy or incomplete info that gets downloaded from online databases by the likes of EAC.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #6 –
There can be non-audio information within a .wav file that FLAC won't keep, unless you use the --keep-foreign-metadata option.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #7 –
I wouldn't save WAV files at all, too easy to lose metadata.  Use FLAC from the beginning. Its more efficient and safer.

WAV is best as an intermediate format when processing audio.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #8 –
Thank you very much.

So there absolutely is no reason to keep the wav files.

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However, the smaller file size of FLAC makes it less I/O intensive.

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Yes, you need some CPU time to decode FLACs whereas WAVs don't require decoding. However, the smaller file size of FLAC makes it less I/O intensive.

That reminds me...there are some options regarding the compression, higher and lower or so in such converting programs. Higher means a smaller file and lower a bigger one. Independently of which compression I use the quality (lossless stays lossless) stays the same? But if so, why not use the compression making the smallest files?

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FLAC also has a checksum, it allows you to verify the integrity of the audio.

I am not quite sure, a checksum within the flac file itself? And somehow if the files becomes corrupted a message or so appears? Or do you have to make a checksum of the file and then check it against the checksum in the file?

Quote
I also find FLAC very reliable and compatible with all my devices. If you are into Apple (or use iTunes to organize your music), ALAC is also quite good. ALAC is Apple's own implementation of FLAC. You can convert your WAV files into either format easily with Foobar2000, which I use and favour completely.

I have Win 7.

Alright, tags, metadata a big advantage for using flac.

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There can be non-audio information within a .wav file that FLAC won't keep, unless you use the --keep-foreign-metadata option.

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If there are tags in the WAV ( depends on the program you have used)

Thank you for the link. What for information might it be? Do one need it? The wav files are about 10, 15 years old or older, I guess. The CDs are ripped with Nero and EAC.

Alright, the best programs are EAC, dBpoweramp or foobar to convert.

And if there are no tags in the wav files - and I assume there aren't - can you automatically add them when converting?

Quote
WAV is best as an intermediate format when processing audio.

Hmmm, why is that?

Many thanks again.
Newest stable foobar, portable | Win 7

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #9 –
Lower compression settings are sometimes used when you don't care about tiny differences in file size but want to compress quickly.

Lossless is in fact lossless.

WAV is used as an intermediate format because its the most common way to save raw, unprocessed PCM.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #10 –
The checksum is stored within the flac file, and when it is decoded, as in when you play it, the decoder can make sure that it still matches.

When you encode to flac, the software can make use of, for example, the name of the file to add in metadata.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #11 –
Quote
Lower compression settings are sometimes used when you don't care about tiny differences in file size but want to compress quickly.

Lossless is in fact lossless.

So lower compression - of course - is faster, but makes a slightly bigger file, that's it. So just the decision whether faster and bigger or slower and smaller, the quality always is the same.

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When you encode to flac, the software can make use of, for example, the name of the file to add in metadata.

OK, I had hoped the decoding program could use an online database like freedb.org and download the tags like EAC does it. But you can do that after separately anyway.

Quote
The other issue is data integrity. FLAC offers a checksum which will tell you if a file has become corrupted due to storage errors, etc. That's great, but it won't fix the file. By default FLAC won't decode such files. You can force it to decode through the errors but what you end up with may be entirely useless. Even if it decodes through the errors the damage will likely be much larger than it would in a raw wav file since via compression the errors are amplified.

Could that mean, that an error you would not hear playing a wav file you might hear in a flac file then? But in any case the decoding program would show an error message, because of the not matching checksum?
Newest stable foobar, portable | Win 7

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Moto on
Quote
The other issue is data integrity. FLAC offers a checksum which will tell you if a file has become corrupted due to storage errors, etc. That's great, but it won't fix the file. By default FLAC won't decode such files. You can force it to decode through the errors but what you end up with may be entirely useless. Even if it decodes through the errors the damage will likely be much larger than it would in a raw wav file since via compression the errors are amplified.

Could that mean, that an error you would not hear playing a wav file you might hear in a flac file then? But in any case the decoding program would show an error message, because of the not matching checksum?


Exactly. A low order single bit error could be inaudible in a WAV file but it would cause the FLAC file to not decode at all without intervention, and then the audibility of the error will be much more likely in the FLAC if you force the decode anyway. Again, if you use a fault tolerant storage system this is a non-issue.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #13 –
Regarding your last question: FLAC's use of an MD5 checksum is primarily in relation to file integrity and corruption introduced after the fact. By default, if the checksum entered into FLAC metadata at the time of encoding does not match the checksum determined at time of decoding, the FLAC decoder will return an error.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #14 –
Just a warning: sometimes fixing up metadata takes longer than ripping. If you want everything perfectly tagged you might find it quicker to re-rip with dbpoweramp. If you don't mind what's in the tags then obviously batch converting the wavs to flac is much quicker.

Cheers,
David.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Moto on
And if there are no tags in the wav files - and I assume there aren't - can you automatically add them when converting?

You can tag files when converting if you use Audacity.

With the other software, I haven't actually tried, so I don't know.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #17 –
Quote
Exactly. A low order single bit error could be inaudible in a WAV file but it would cause the FLAC file to not decode at all without intervention, and then the audibility of the error will be much more likely in the FLAC if you force the decode anyway.

OK, so when I convert wavs to flac it normally cannot happen, that I miss a flac being converted with errors because there will be an error message. So when I after converting remove the wavs I can be sure all of the flac files are not corrupted.

Quote

I do not have such a system, some simple external hard disk only.
Quote

By default, if the checksum entered into FLAC metadata at the time of encoding does not match the checksum determined at time of decoding, the FLAC decoder will return an error.

So if a flac file would be encoded containing an error (if that would be possible at all) the decoder would play that file (correct checksum assumed) but the error may be would be audible.

Quote
Just a warning: sometimes fixing up metadata takes longer than ripping. If you want everything perfectly tagged you might find it quicker to re-rip with dbpoweramp. If you don't mind what's in the tags then obviously batch converting the wavs to flac is much quicker.

There are thousands of wavs so actually I would batch convert and hope...and may be tagging after converting with a special program (but I guess, that would be the same effort). By the way, which program does it well? I have used TagScanner for a while.
Newest stable foobar, portable | Win 7

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #18 –
I'm sure it's safe to say none of these wave files are tagged, right?

I was a tagscanner user for many years, but moved over to mp3tag a few years back because it's more powerful.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Moto on
Quote
Exactly. A low order single bit error could be inaudible in a WAV file but it would cause the FLAC file to not decode at all without intervention, and then the audibility of the error will be much more likely in the FLAC if you force the decode anyway.

OK, so when I convert wavs to flac it normally cannot happen, that I miss a flac being converted with errors because there will be an error message. So when I after converting remove the wavs I can be sure all of the flac files are not corrupted.

Quote

I do not have such a system, some simple external hard disk only.
Quote

By default, if the checksum entered into FLAC metadata at the time of encoding does not match the checksum determined at time of decoding, the FLAC decoder will return an error.

So if a flac file would be encoded containing an error (if that would be possible at all) the decoder would play that file (correct checksum assumed) but the error may be would be audible.

Quote
Just a warning: sometimes fixing up metadata takes longer than ripping. If you want everything perfectly tagged you might find it quicker to re-rip with dbpoweramp. If you don't mind what's in the tags then obviously batch converting the wavs to flac is much quicker.

There are thousands of wavs so actually I would batch convert and hope...and may be tagging after converting with a special program (but I guess, that would be the same effort). By the way, which program does it well? I have used TagScanner for a while.

Have you been consistent in the way these files have been named? Foobar can create tags from filenames (and, vice versa, rename files from tags). It is unlikely, though, that these tags will be all that detailed, unless you have a seriously complex filenaming system.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #20 –
Well, I just converted a WAV with markers to FLAC and the markers were gone.
(I tried adding --keep-foreign-metadata, but it failed with an error.)

Is there a way to preserve WAV markers? What about loop points?

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #21 –
Quote
I'm sure it's safe to say none of these wave files are tagged, right?

Well, yes, I would say so.

Quote
I was a tagscanner user for many years, but moved over to mp3tag a few years back because it's more powerful.

OK, I also use it.

Quote
Have you been consistent in the way these files have been named?

Yes, I almost always have used the same scheme.

Quote
It is unlikely, though, that these tags will be all that detailed, unless you have a seriously complex filenaming system.

The names are (normally) like that: Joe Satriani (Black Swans And Wormhole Wizards 2010) - Longing (13).wav
Newest stable foobar, portable | Win 7

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #22 –
Definitely no reason to leave them as wav. If you're concerned about compatibility, FLAC is the way to go. If you want to save even more space, consider TAK.

Quote from: yourlord on
Exactly. A low order single bit error could be inaudible in a WAV file but it would cause the FLAC file to not decode at all without intervention, and then the audibility of the error will be much more likely in the FLAC if you force the decode anyway. Again, if you use a fault tolerant storage system this is a non-issue.
If it's a complete CD rip, you could also use CUETools to repair the files if the corruption is small and the CD is in CTDB. I've had some music files go corrupt due to bit rot and so far I managed to repair all of them with CUETools.

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Brand on
Well, I just converted a WAV with markers to FLAC and the markers were gone.
(I tried adding --keep-foreign-metadata, but it failed with an error.)

Is there a way to preserve WAV markers? What about loop points?

All that info should be foreign metadata (non-audio RIFF chunks) which --keep-foreign-metadata is supposed to preserve if you use it when both encoding and decoding. It should just work.

What error did you get? How was the WAV created? How are you decoding the FLAC back to WAV? You need to use the standard flac tools; dragging the FLAC into an editor may just result in decoding the audio only via some other library (e.g. Audition uses libsndfile).

All wavs to flac or leave wav?

Reply #24 –
You're right. It works just fine with the command line flac with --keep-foreign-metadata when encoding and decoding.


I was using foobar2000 and it fails when encoding to FLAC:
Code: [Select]
An error occurred while writing to file (The encoder has terminated prematurely with code 1 (0x00000001); please re-check parameters)

Removing --ignore-chunk-sizes doesn't help. I tried removing everything else too, apart from %d at the end which is mandatory. Still the same error.

And when decoding from FLAC to WAV it ignores the metadata and I couldn't find a way to keep it.