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Inexpensive equipment for ripping vinyl, Any hints for hunting through second-hand equipment?
dodog
post Nov 18 2009, 00:05
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No, my issue is that one person makes a point and 10 other people answer with a "what-he-said" response that doesn't add much. Science or not, that aspect gets old.

As for AudioKarma, that site is free, and many scientific people (and those with technical knowledge) post there. Perhaps check it out before you write it off. If you wish to enter "barter town", which is their classified section, then you have to pay. It's a way they generate money to pay for their servers, etc. and those who pay have access to a great "hidden" part of the forum. Many people post on the free forums stating their wants and their needs, and many people offer support, advice, services, and "stuff".
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Axon
post Nov 18 2009, 01:41
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QUOTE (dodog @ Nov 17 2009, 17:05) *
No, my issue is that one person makes a point and 10 other people answer with a "what-he-said" response that doesn't add much. Science or not, that aspect gets old.
It does - but it also reflects how stone-cold-uncontroversial those answers are around these parts, even though they seem pretty strange to visitors. (And that two mods seemed to chime in at once mostly reflects that I haven't had time to comment on this thread much.)

QUOTE
As for AudioKarma, that site is free, and many scientific people (and those with technical knowledge) post there. Perhaps check it out before you write it off. If you wish to enter "barter town", which is their classified section, then you have to pay. It's a way they generate money to pay for their servers, etc. and those who pay have access to a great "hidden" part of the forum. Many people post on the free forums stating their wants and their needs, and many people offer support, advice, services, and "stuff".
I don't know a whole lot about AK, but IIRC, the posters on their vinyl forum do indeed concern themselves more with vintage/used kit, which is probably up Canar's alley atm. But I find that AA and VE tend to have a better discussion of technical topics (if one can even have a meaningful technical conversation in such a maelstrom of mutually contradictory philosophies...)

Dunno about AK's premium content either, it does sound interesting, although in my experience sellers on audio forums tend to price their kit knowledgeably, which is probably bad for Canar biggrin.gif
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Canar
post Nov 18 2009, 02:55
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Well dodog, thanks again for the recommendation. Your initial post came off a bit ad-ish if you catch me, but you certainly seem sincere.


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dodog
post Nov 18 2009, 03:32
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QUOTE (Canar @ Nov 17 2009, 20:55) *
Well dodog, thanks again for the recommendation. Your initial post came off a bit ad-ish if you catch me, but you certainly seem sincere.


I have no vested interest at AK, other than to point someone towards a resource that has helped me a great deal. I know what it's like to have limited funds and I don't envy you. My offer was sincere, and still is, if you need help or some "flat" (as best my equipment could do it) transfers, PM me and I'll send you my address. Save your money for more vinyl. wink.gif
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Canar
post Dec 30 2009, 21:52
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Well, my father got me a JVC L-A31 for Christmas, with some Shure cartridge that I can't recall the model number of. I got him a copy of Deep Purple - In Rock which I tried ripping (flat-transfer using his Edirol UA-25), and it turned out pretty noisy, but perhaps that is due to the age of the record. I'm going to try it on my copy of Neil Landstrumm - Bambaataa Eats His Breakfast (with my E-MU 0404) when it gets shipped out east here and I will report back.


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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Dec 31 2009, 15:22
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QUOTE (Canar @ Dec 30 2009, 15:52) *
Well, my father got me a JVC L-A31 for Christmas, with some Shure cartridge that I can't recall the model number of. I got him a copy of Deep Purple - In Rock which I tried ripping (flat-transfer using his Edirol UA-25), and it turned out pretty noisy, but perhaps that is due to the age of the record. I'm going to try it on my copy of Neil Landstrumm - Bambaataa Eats His Breakfast (with my E-MU 0404) when it gets shipped out east here and I will report back.


The JVC L-A31 looks like one of the better servo turntables of the mid-80s.

A quick look suggests that the UA-25 lacks a RIAA preamp. How did you solve that problem?
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Canar
post Dec 31 2009, 16:51
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Turned input sensitivity to max, transferred flat, applied RIAA equalization and loudness normalization in software (Audacity) after that. This is probably the source of the noise. I might buy (or build!) a proper phono pre-amp for this purpose too. I'm still just playing around.

This post has been edited by Canar: Dec 31 2009, 17:01


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Juha
post Dec 31 2009, 20:03
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QUOTE (Canar @ Dec 31 2009, 19:51) *
Turned input sensitivity to max, transferred flat, applied RIAA equalization and loudness normalization in software (Audacity) after that. This is probably the source of the noise. I might buy (or build!) a proper phono pre-amp for this purpose too. I'm still just playing around.


Remember to connect the ground wire found from turntable onto audio interface ground !
I don't know the quality of pre-amps of Edirol but, I'm sure there shouldn't be any additional noise when you record through E-MU ... (flat or RIAA EQ'd).

Juha
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Dec 31 2009, 21:35
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QUOTE (Canar @ Dec 31 2009, 10:51) *
Turned input sensitivity to max, transferred flat, applied RIAA equalization and loudness normalization in software (Audacity) after that. This is probably the source of the noise. I might buy (or build!) a proper phono pre-amp for this purpose too. I'm still just playing around.


Musican's Friend is selling Presouns Inspire 1394 firewire audio interfaces for a huge discount - $99 including shipping verus ca. $189 street price. I ordered one and have been playing with it. One of its more unusual features is RIAA preamps.

The basic box has 4 separate inputs and 2 outputs. The headphone jack has lots of output. 2 of the inputs are RCA line level, and 2 are switchable between line, mic, and RIAA if I'm reading things right.
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Axon
post Dec 31 2009, 22:20
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You're using the proper resistive/capacitive loading, right? If you don't, the circuit impedance rises substantially towards 20khz, and this does translate into increased thermal noise at those frequencies.
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Canar
post Jan 2 2010, 06:05
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Do you have a good reference I can check out to ensure that I'm doing it right, Axon?


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botface
post Jan 2 2010, 13:15
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QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 2 2010, 05:05) *
Do you have a good reference I can check out to ensure that I'm doing it right, Axon?

If you're just concerned about the cartridge loading a Shure will almost certainly need 47kOhm and around 220pf, as will most moving magnets.
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Axon
post Jan 2 2010, 23:34
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QUOTE (Canar @ Jan 1 2010, 23:05) *
Do you have a good reference I can check out to ensure that I'm doing it right, Axon?

I'm not sure if there is any particularly better way than to whip out a (trusted) test record, unfortunately. If you have a LP equivalent of a CD album (with similar/equal masters) you could do a spectrum comparison that way. But of course those are hard to come by. If you put particularly high faith in the flat noise spectrum of your recording environment (representing a constant impedance), you could try adjusting for flattest noise floor, but I would not recommend that.

This post has been edited by Axon: Jan 2 2010, 23:35
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Juha
post Jan 3 2010, 10:17
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QUOTE (Axon @ Jan 1 2010, 00:20) *
You're using the proper resistive/capacitive loading, right? If you don't, the circuit impedance rises substantially towards 20khz, and this does translate into increased thermal noise at those frequencies.


Hmm... would it be hard to prepare a (software) filter to fix this resistive/capacitive 'error'?
(I asked this once on another forum and, IIRC, I got an answer telling that it wouldn't be hard.)

Juha
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RobHolt
post Jan 3 2010, 23:06
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My suggestion here would be to splash out on a better deck, cartridge and phono pre amp on the used market and then sell the kit after transferring the vinyl.
The initial outlay will be more but if you buy carefully you will recoup most of your spend.

I would suggest:

Rega P3 turntable - 150
Denon DL110 cartridge - 90 (new)
Nad PP1 phono stage - 50

That will give you excellent quality vinyl playback.
The Rega can be sold on for the original purchase price and you'll take a hit of about 30-40% on the new items - but you will have superb transfers smile.gif

I can point you at some of my vinyl transfer files if you'd like to see just what is possible.

Rob.
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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Jan 4 2010, 13:54
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QUOTE (Axon @ Dec 31 2009, 16:20) *
You're using the proper resistive/capacitive loading, right? If you don't, the circuit impedance rises substantially towards 20khz, and this does translate into increased thermal noise at those frequencies.


Yes but... is the increase enough to be audible, especially given the din that is going on due to the vinyl, the dirt, and the stylus.

The big benefit of proper capacitive loading is flatter frequency response, which all happens at far higher levels than thermal noise.
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Canar
post Jan 6 2010, 13:52
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The cartridge/stylus it came with is a Shure N72EJ.


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Canar
post Jan 12 2010, 17:28
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I'm not sure if it's R/C loading or what, but I get nearly full-scale signal when connecting my E-MU 0404 directly to the turntable, with only RCA -> 1/4" converters in between the devices. The left channel is slightly altered. The RMS is higher than the right channel, but the peak is lower. Subsequent RIAA equalization brings the signal basically completely in-line with the digital versions of the two source records I have.

I intend to post some samples here at some point.

This post has been edited by Canar: Jan 12 2010, 17:30


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mixminus1
post Jan 26 2010, 16:14
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I'm in a similar situation as Canar - looking to setup a basic vinyl ripping (love that phrase) rig - and have a couple questions WRT buying a turntable, new or used (I've read Knowzy's excellent articles/posts on USB turntables and definitely want to go a couple steps above those):

1) P-mount vs standard half-inch mount: Is P-mount inherently inferior due to its emphasis on convenience (pretty much all parameters are fixed), or can a good/decent cart (if I go that route, I was thinking of something like AT's ATC3003 for ~$50) go toe-to-toe with a similarly-priced half-inch mount? I do notice that all P-mounts seem to have a very low tracking force (1.25g being the average), which would seem to be a good thing...?

2) Used direct-drive vs. new belt drive: While I could (just) afford to pick up the Denon DP-300F (belt drive w/phono preamp) new for $330 if it was worth it, there's quite a few older Technics direct-drives available on eBay et al. for $50-$70 (w/shipping) in (apparently) good condition. Budgeting another $50 for a new cart and another $50 for a preamp (the AT-PEQ3) puts me at/just under half the price of the Denon, and I'm wondering if direct-drive really is so much better that it would more than offset the age of a mid-80's turntable.

The cheapest new direct-drive that I've seen is the good ol' Technics SL-1200, and they're currently sitting at $600+, which I just can't swing.


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gottogo99
post Jan 26 2010, 17:54
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My thoughts:

1) All P-mounts are the same tracking force by design, I think. I am certain that all P-mount cartridges weigh the same by design. P-mount is MUCH simpler to set up: insert cartridge, install locking screw, adjust counterweight, and you're done. Takes about 2 minutes. Standard mount requires much more effort to mount the cartridge, position it properly using some type of fixture, attach the 4 wires, and adjust the tracking force. I would not trust the installation of a standard cartridge to be right unless I knew the person who installed it, saw it done, or did it myself. There must be advantages to standard mount due to the flexibility of design, but I'm not sure you'll hear them for a "basic" setup.

2) For a cheap turntable direct drive is better because the speed is more accurate; less wow and flutter. For an expensive turntable belt drive is better because it isolates the motor noise and vibration better.

So it depends on what you really want and can afford. I would be hesitant to buy a used turntable off eBay because they are hard to ship, and if it breaks it will be difficult to get a refund. I definitely would not buy one in "as is" condition; probably doesn't work right. There may be some sellers who specialize in used turntables however, so they would be a possible source, but maybe out of your price range. My suggestion is to look locally for something you can test in person.
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mixminus1
post Jan 27 2010, 18:50
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Thanks much, gottogo99.

Yeah, I've started looking around locally, but pickings are pretty slim...if I can find something cheap enough on eBay (<$50), I don't mind if it's a bit of a project... wink.gif


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