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Topic: backup solutions for large lossless collections? (Read 6421 times) previous topic - next topic
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backup solutions for large lossless collections?

i've been using 15gig tapes to backup my mp3s for a long time...  but now that i'm switching to lossless files... my collection is growing tremendously in size... 

are there any INEXPENSIVE backup solutions out there for large archives?

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #1 –
and to put perspective on it... i had about 50gigs of mp3s...  now its a mixed collection of around 100gigs...


(and before i get stoned... by converting, i mean RE-Ripping original cds... NOT transcoding from lossy to lossless which is an act worthy of punishment)

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #2 –
Well, the backup situation is very grim for a lot of people now... the cheapest way of doing it is to just buy another hdd. Hard drives are now about $1 per gig. I think the only thing that approaches that is DVDs, and depending on where you get them, a DVD-R might be cheaper per gig. Pretty much everything else will be too expensive.

And not just monetary expense... you can buy CD-Rs with more bits per dollar, but how many CDRs does it take to back up your collection. Too many. And tapes are just expensive. Buy a 200GB hdd and "backup" there...

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #4 –
no camcorder, unfortunately...

and yeah, i was thinking another harddrive...


i think i may continue using the tapes until i have more to backup than the tapes i have will hold (which is coming soon...) and then setup a small IDE raid solution...  i already have 1 160gb hd... i can just take out the 8 and 20gig hds in there, and buy another 160 real cheap... and a ide raid card...


or... by some miracle, they'll find a way to make lossless files a lot smaller soon    (wishful thinking)

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #5 –
RAID is not a backup. It is a protection against drive failure - not against vira and human errors.

Check recommendations in this thread.

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #6 –
I backup my 50 + gigabyte collection with DVD-Rs on a Pioneer A04.  I use NTI Backup NOW! 3.0 Deluxe which is the only descent backup software that supports DVD-R backup (that I’ve found).  As most backup software does, NTI Backup Now keeps track of what has already been backed up, most likely using the achieve setting on each file, nothing super complicated.

I make multiple burns of each disc, and store them at my girlfriend’s house and at my brother’s apartment.

My collection consists of a mixture of mostly MP3s, OGGs, and MPCs, which is currently my format of choice.

I don’t know if my backup method would be cost efficient for lossless collections.  I get good 2X DVD-Rs for about $1 a piece (USA), I thought about using FLAC exclusively for awhile, but in the end I wouldn’t be able to stand not having all, or at least most of my complete collection on one PC.

I think if there was a truly safe, and cheap way of storing VERY large amounts of data, everyone would be using lossless compression for backing up their music collections.  (this excludes file sharing of coarse.)

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #7 –
I myself am currently looking for the best solution to this problem.

Well.. actually, I made up my mind.. kinda.  I wanted a backup
solution that respected the following criterions:

- cheap.  500$US is the maximum possible to invest.

- reliable.

- redundant.

- large (650MB is not enough.. 40+ GB becomes interesting)

- very easy/quick to use so I actually DO the backup



I juggled with the idea of buying:

- a tape backup solution

- plenty of CD-Rs

- plenty of DVD-Rs

- a big monolitic external USB hdd (or 2)

- a network server, configured in raid-1



I will go for the network server.  The tape backup solution is way too
expensive.  CD-Rs are cheap, but I would spend 10+ hours to perform my
backups !!  The DVD-R burners are still rather expensive and 4.7GB is
not _that_ much.

An external USB hdd is very appealing, though it does not respect the
'redundant' criteria.  hdd are very reliable these days.. but what if
you are unlucky and stumble upon a bad hdd?  I sure wouldn't want to
put all my sensitive data on one hdd.



The advantages I find with the network server solution are:

- reliable/redundant.  hdd are reliable.  two mirrored hdd are very
  reliable.

- performing your backup is so easy/quick.. you can effortlessly do it
  every day!

- 80-120 GB hdd are affordable.  250+ GB hdd are still expensive but
  maybe you have enough cash for 'em.

disadvantages:

- raid-1 ensures all the data is mirrored between the drives, but if
  you fuck up and delete an important file, you are doomed.  You would
  need 'the Annuka solution'.. a network server to backup the other
  network server (a backup of the backup).  I don't have the money to
  support this solution.

- if your place burns, your fucked.  The beauty with tapes/cds is that
  you can store them in a safe.


I will go for a 2x80gb raid-1 network server setup.  I will reserve
40gb for my CDDAs.  The balance for my 'normal' data.  The CDDAs I
won't be able to fit in the reserved 40gb of my network server, I will
burn on CD-Rs (flac-ed).

hope my point of view will help.

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #8 –
yeah, i just bought a 180gb western digital with a USB 2.0 enclosure...  it was like $230...

now if i can find someone to buy my onstream 15gb tape drive, i'll be doing well....

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #9 –
Quote
yeah, i just bought a 180gb western digital with a USB 2.0 enclosure...


Aren't USB 2.0 external hard drives limted to 120-130gb max supported capacity??

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #11 –
Quote
ATA133 is limited to 132 GB. USB2/FireWire/S-ATA doesn't have the same limitation.


Really?

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #12 –
Quote
ATA133 is limited to 132 GB. USB2/FireWire/S-ATA doesn't have the same limitation.


Size limitations have nothing to do with ATA.  There are ATA100 controllers that work fine with 200+GB drives.

Anyway hard disk is most cost effective.  Assuming you have LAN access (you may not in which case this doesn't really help), get an old machine, put it in a different room, and FTP/SMB?etc copies of what you ecode onto it.  Yes Hard drives do fail, but if both of them fail at the same time its probably because you house burned down.  In that case tape/DVD is going to do much better unless you put them in a safe box (which is probably excessive).

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #13 –
Quote
unless you put them in a safe box (which is probably excessive).

actually... thats my plan...


lol... excessive? on THIS forum??  I'm honored

hehe


oh, and just outa curiosity, whats the rules on here about selling stuff? is it against policy?  (private, not commercial)

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #14 –
I don't trust CDRs after seeing all mine and some I burned for a friend turning unusable after 3 years. Good Mitsui Media CDRs, as well as any other silver CDRs. The few gold CDRs I've got are OK, but people at afterdawn.com (see FAQ) have reported gold CDRs slowly decaying, like silver ones.

No media last forever. CDRs 3 years, tapes unknown (at most 20 years, but the recorder shouldn't last more than 5 years if used daily and if the same as a DAT deck), DVDR probably like CDR, hard drives 5 to 10 years.

Therefore a reliable solution implies to backup all the data regularly, so that when the backup fails, it can be replaced. That rules out CDRs and DVDRs, that are not checked regularly for readability, and will probably be unusable when the original is lost.
Between DVD RW (that would be erased and reburned regularly), tapes (1000 $ for a recorder), and external hard drive, I chose the last one, cheaper than both others, faster than DVDRW (but not faster than DDS tapes), and convenient, as there is just to plug the device, and drag-n-drop the files in the explorer.

Of course I only plug it when I update the backup.

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #15 –
Actually it's quite remarkable that hdd's last longer than cdr's (well, if you don't spin them up daily). They have a much higher data density, which would lead me to intuitively think they are more vulnerable in time.
Thinking again, cdr's are like facsimiles; you change the color of the substance by heating it. So if you wait a while, the unheated parts slowly change color by everyday heating some. Likewise, facsimiles turn brown.

Can it in general be said then, that storage on magnetic media is longer-lasting than on dye-based media? (Ofcourse, in the absence of strong magnetic disturbances). So would magneto-optical discs like Minidiscs last longer than cdr's?

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #16 –
What about an OnStream Drive, like their 30/60 GB IDE Tape Drive?

If it's your own CD collection that you've FLACed to a big HD, then archiving it all to a handful of these and tossing them in a safe should be enough.  Heck, tossing them onto DVD-Rs would be enough if you don't intend to re-back them up all the time.  Just make sure the discs are okay every so often.  This way you could hike the stuff offsite so that if your house burns down, you still have your stuff.

That's just backup though.  If you're worried about availability, then RAID 1 is your easiest bet.

Edit: That's supposed to be 30/60, not 60/60.  Duh.

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #17 –
What about DVD-RAM?

backup solutions for large lossless collections?

Reply #18 –
I finally found a very likable backup solution by following this guide:

http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rsync_snapshots/

Of course, the biggest factor in this is that it requires (I believe) using Linux (or some other UNIX) somewhere in the system, either on your computer or on a separate computer used for storing the backup.

On my system, I have an extra internal hard drive for keeping backups.  I backup my home directory every 4 hours, and keep "snapshots" of my last 4 backups plus one backup from each day for the previous three days.  For example, right now my home directory snapshots are the following dates/times:

Code: [Select]
Apr  8 20:00 backup.0
Apr  8 16:00 backup.1
Apr  8 12:00 backup.2
Apr  8 08:00 backup.3
Apr  8 00:00 daily.0
Apr  7 00:00 daily.1
Apr  6 00:00 daily.2


Here's the beauty of it - rsync only updates changes to my data (which is fast - backups take only minutes to complete), and data that hasn't changed is hard-linked from one snapshot to another (which saves space - currently my home directory has 24G of files, but all my home backups combined are only 31G).  I like knowing that I can go back to data from two days ago, one day ago, or 4 hours ago if accidentally do something I shouldn't, and I have a script that will add a weekly snapshot to this system if I think it's needed.

Anyhow, this is just my $0.02 and I realize that it may not help many Windows-only users.  But I have found it to be an excellent solution, and someday I'll configure my system to back up to a remote location (I'll buy a hard drive for a friend's machine and backup over the internet through a secure connection).  The guide I linked to has some good ideas and information, and is one of those things on my list of "why I use Linux".

Lastly, here's a story for those considering backing up to CD-R.  I had an incident last summer (before I had any backup system) in which I was forced to back up my FLAC collection (45G) from a failing hard drive.  Seriously strapped for cash, my cheapest option was to backup to CD-R.  I have a 4x CD-R, and it's on another machine without much disk space.  Not really ideal.  The "copy-zip-burn-wait-read-extract-verify-repeat" process might be the most fun I've had since I got struck by lightning.  It took, um, "a while".  But look what it gained me - I don't use/listen to my FLACs because it's not convenient (I have Vorbis -q 0 copies for now), and I fully expect some of my CD-Rs to rot away and I'll end up re-ripping stuff anyway.  So trust me, when my budget is right, I'll be loading my computers (and maybe my friends', too) with disgustingly large amounts of hard drive space, and making rsync_snapshots like they're going out of style...