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Topic: Neil Young’s new audio format (Read 132518 times) previous topic - next topic
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Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #100 –
Ehrm...can't we already buy said studio masters in 192 form from hdtracks that DONT require specialized hardware to play? Being as most on board sound chips already support such a thing? What are we talking about, a portable player that can handle 2mbit sampling? Can somebody please point poor old senile Neil to xiph.org...forgot to mention the ridiculous DRM that will be involved...two steps forward with awesome services like Xbox music pass and band camps drm free flacs, giant step back with garbage like this...

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #101 –
I think the pono solution is a pretext for DRM. They don't care that much about sound quality.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #102 –
I just don't see what technological advantage is even possible here, we already have bandcamp and hdtracks, both offering the theoretical advantages, and I do mean theoretical, that he is implying. Thank god roadrunner records has the right idea...nice complete box sets of some of my favorite bands at decent prices...thats where my dollars are going...

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #103 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
I just don't see what technological advantage is even possible here, we already have bandcamp and hdtracks, both offering the theoretical advantages, and I do mean theoretical, that he is implying. Thank god roadrunner records has the right idea...nice complete box sets of some of my favorite bands at decent prices...thats where my dollars are going...


Roadrunner (like everyone else) compresses their music to death.  Even their hdtracks are compressed.  See the latest Rush album.  I know the dynamics are better for some albums on hdtracks, but not best.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #104 –
Quote from: zumacraig on
Roadrunner (like everyone else) compresses their music to death.  Even their hdtracks are compressed.  See the latest Rush album.  I know the dynamics are better for some albums on hdtracks, but not best.
The mastering is so hot it leaves only Vapor Trails behind.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #105 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
Ehrm...can't we already buy said studio masters in 192 form from hdtracks that DONT require specialized hardware to play?



The answer to the bolded part is No, not necessarily.  HDtracks acquires digital masters from record companies.  There is no guarantee that those are flat transfers of the original, 0th generation master tapes (in the cases where the recordings were originally analog) or the original digital masters (versus a remastered version). And what processing HDtracks actually does, or does not do, with the masters it acquires, is a black box.  As will probably be the case for Pono.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #106 –
Quote from: zumacraig on
We don't even need any new technology.  go on amazon and buy a used initial pressing of a CD from the 80s for $5.  there you have it.



That will likely get you a CD version that has not suffered from the loudness wars.  But it won't guarantee that it was sourced from the best 'studio master'. And the EQ and noise reduction applied will be whatever the remastering engineer at the time felt was appropriate, as is always the case. 

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #107 –
Just noticed these lyrics...

♫ Dreaming about the way things sound now
Write about them in my book
Worry that you can't hear me now
And feel the time I took

When you hear my song now
You only get five percent
You used to get it all
You used to get it all. ♫

- from "Driftin' Back", Psychedelic Pill 2012

As a life-long fan, it embarrasses me to hear Neil say this stuff.  5% of the bitrate it takes to deliver Pono's "primal power" is just about equal to LAME -V0.  There is no way he -- or anyone else he knows -- can ABX -V0 vs. his own master tape.  I'd love to see him challenged to do this.

OTOH, take a moment to imagine 20x more Neil coming out of your headphones!

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #108 –
Quote from: extrabigmehdi on
I think the pono solution is a pretext for DRM. They don't care that much about sound quality.


If that is the case, then the whole Pono promo is a rerun of SACD. SACD failed in the mainstream marketplace. Why rerun a failing plan?

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #109 –
I honestly have doubts about this being (at least solely) a Trojan Horse for DRM. What official marketing we have so far for PONO seems way more True Believer than the equivalent stuff for SACD. Just look at all that emotion-laden nonsense written by Neil. He has been gifted the knowledge of how to save us all. He knows what he must do.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #110 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
If that is the case, then the whole Pono promo is a rerun of SACD. SACD failed in the mainstream marketplace. Why rerun a failing plan?


Maybe Neil is  more interested to compete with itune store (but I don't think pono would play on the ipod).  Pono is according to wikipedia also a download-service.

Anyways this is my logic:
How to justify a new audio format with some DRM  in it ? (an umpteenth attempt to stop piracy). You have to claim that there's some improvements to get some attention.  What kind of audio improvements are possible today (i.e talking of the audio format only) ? I leave this question to other people, perhaps there are still hopes.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #111 –
Quote from: extrabigmehdi on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
If that is the case, then the whole Pono promo is a rerun of SACD. SACD failed in the mainstream marketplace. Why rerun a failing plan?


Maybe Neil is  more interested to compete with itune store (but I don't think pono would play on the ipod).  Pono is according to wikipedia also a download-service.

Anyways this is my logic:
How to justify a new audio format with some DRM  in it ? (an umpteenth attempt to stop piracy). You have to claim that there's some improvements to get some attention.  What kind of audio improvements are possible today (i.e talking of the audio format only) ? I leave this question to other people, perhaps there are still hopes.


Right, seems to me that the only improvements could be in production techniques and mastering.  Alas, these all come down to personal whims.  Ironically, even thought actual songs have been touch and go, his production, mixing and mastering over the last 15 years has been pretty good compared to the whims of corp rock, metal and progressive.  These genres could learn a thing or two from him on that front.  I love me some metal or new progressive rock, but the production is absolutely horrible.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #112 –
Quote from: Apesbrain on
Just noticed these lyrics...
[snipped due to cringe]
- from "Driftin' Back", Psychedelic Pill 2012

As a life-long fan, it embarrasses me to hear Neil say this stuff.  5% of the bitrate it takes to deliver Pono's "primal power" is just about equal to LAME -V0.  There is no way he -- or anyone else he knows -- can ABX -V0 vs. his own master tape.  I'd love to see him challenged to do this.
I cringed the whole way through. Wow.

Quote from: zumacraig on
Quote from: extrabigmehdi on
How to justify a new audio format with some DRM  in it ? (an umpteenth attempt to stop piracy). You have to claim that there's some improvements to get some attention.  What kind of audio improvements are possible today (i.e talking of the audio format only) ?
Right, seems to me that the only improvements could be in production techniques and mastering.
But that’s a side issue. Young is pushing his new ‘system’ as if it’s a new spiritual paradigm, without offering any real-world basis for any of it, obviously because none is possible. Whether or not DRM is a concern, the core of their marketing seems to be appeals to sentimentality, emotion, and of course FUD. Who needs to invent stories about mastering, danceability, or any other barely plausible pretext when you can reel people in by the heartstrings? Sure, they might supplement their persuasion with the old trick of different masters or rave about sampling rates for a while, but those are nothing new. The point is the new depths of wooxploitation that are being reached, seemingly as the core of their strategy. The official marketing for SACD never sunk that low, AFAIR.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #113 –
Quote from: db1989 on
The official marketing for SACD never sunk that low, AFAIR.

While I suppose releasing titles with a different master on each layer wasn't official marketing, it was still pretty low.

To reiterate my position, if this results in downloads that are nicely mastered which can't be had elsewhere and the price is right then I see it as a win, despite the fact that some idiots will undoubtedly owe it to the delivery format.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #114 –
I cannot bring myself to believe that Neil Young is doing this in order to trouser more money.

He has had numerous opportunities during his career to fill his boots but has almost always chosen instead to move on to something new. Almost alone among this contemporaries he has retained a reputation for artistic integrity and remained relevant and vibrant.

So it's more probable that the person most at risk of getting ripped off here is Neil Young himself. 

He probably doesn't know and in the circles he mixes in it's in no one's interest to tell him.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #115 –
Quote from: greynol on
To reiterate my position, if this results in downloads that are nicely mastered which can't be had elsewhere and the price is right then I see it as a win, despite the fact that some idiots will undoubtedly owe it to the delivery format.
Yes, though what sometimes happens is that the only way to get a decent mastering of something is to pay £20+ for the DSD/192kHz/etc version of something.

One problem is the cost.

The second problem is it feels stupid. Pay £20 for a format I can't even play, downconvert it to CD quality, and then convert it to mp3? The result still sounds gorgeous, but it seems madness to go down this route.

Still, no one said the world was rational, and I guess if they were remastering it that well just for CD, it would be a gold CD or extra price CD or something. It wouldn't be the £5 that the normal CD probably is.

If you honestly believe the CD format isn't good enough, you can justify the extra SACD/whatever price in your head far more easily than if you know full well that CD is perfectly adequate, and it's "only" the mastering you're paying extra for. People like to pay for "things", not intangible "expertise" and "time spent". Hence workmen often inflate the cost of materials to hide the real cost of labour, because people are happier with the physical product they can see, rather than the invisible time they're really paying for.

Cheers,
David.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #116 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
The second problem is it feels stupid. Pay £20 for a format I can't even play,

Ok the £20 was already listed as the first problem which may or may not be a reality, but hey we're all speculating so I suppose it's fair to gripe about it twice.

Quote
downconvert it to CD quality, and then convert it to mp3? The result still sounds gorgeous, but it seems madness to go down this route.

Meh, just one extra step which is trivial for a regular enthusiast on this forum such as yourself.  I imagine there aren't a whole lot of people incapable of doing this who actually care.  EDIT: I'm assuming conversion is somewhat trivial and not hampered by DRM (another big "if").

Quote
it's "only" the mastering you're paying extra for. People like to pay for "things", not intangible "expertise" and "time spent".

People pay for these kinds of things all the time.  Do you do your own plumbing service?

If the price is too high, people will do what they've been doing for the last dozen years, though I have a feeling those people will distribute it as 24/192 like they do for vinyl.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #117 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: greynol on
To reiterate my position, if this results in downloads that are nicely mastered which can't be had elsewhere and the price is right then I see it as a win, despite the fact that some idiots will undoubtedly owe it to the delivery format.
Yes, though what sometimes happens is that the only way to get a decent mastering of something is to pay £20+ for the DSD/192kHz/etc version of something.

One problem is the cost.

The second problem is it feels stupid. Pay £20 for a format I can't even play, downconvert it to CD quality, and then convert it to mp3? The result still sounds gorgeous, but it seems madness to go down this route.

Still, no one said the world was rational, and I guess if they were remastering it that well just for CD, it would be a gold CD or extra price CD or something. It wouldn't be the £5 that the normal CD probably is.

If you honestly believe the CD format isn't good enough, you can justify the extra SACD/whatever price in your head far more easily than if you know full well that CD is perfectly adequate, and it's "only" the mastering you're paying extra for. People like to pay for "things", not intangible "expertise" and "time spent". Hence workmen often inflate the cost of materials to hide the real cost of labour, because people are happier with the physical product they can see, rather than the invisible time they're really paying for.

Cheers,
David.


What's interesting to me is that he's focused on classic albums: Dylan, Stones, etc.  Thing is, that stuff is good no matter if you're listening to it a cassette taped from an 8 track or a pristine CD.  I find that I only start getting uptight about mastering and sound quality only when the music is MOR.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #118 –
Quote from: greynol on
Meh, just one extra step which is trivial for a regular enthusiast on this forum such as yourself.  I imagine there aren't a whole lot of people incapable of doing this who actually care.
It's not the difficulty, it's the stupidity. The album will end up as ~60MB on my mp3 player. Currently it starts as ~600MB on CD, now it's going to start as ~3GB.

One rational worry is, if people don't appreciate the real reason for an audible improvement, and believe it's just down to higher numbers, then pretty soon higher numbers is all we'll get, and the real improvement (better mastering) will vanish again. It'll be CD all over again.

Quote
People pay for these kinds of things all the time.  Do you do your own plumbing service?
Plumbing (except boilers). Electrical (including two full re-wires). But I admit to not being normal.

Quote
If the price is too high, people will do what they've been doing for the last dozen years, though I have a feeling those people will distribute it as 24/192 like they do for vinyl.
I'm sure it'll be made available like that whatever the price - but I think a higher price will mean more people choose to take advantage of that availability.

I guess the higher the perceived value, the more people are willing to pay for it. 3GB must be worth more than 60MB

Cheers,
David.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #119 –
Quote from: zumacraig on
What's interesting to me is that he's focused on classic albums: Dylan, Stones, etc.  Thing is, that stuff is good no matter if you're listening to it a cassette taped from an 8 track or a pristine CD.  I find that I only start getting uptight about mastering and sound quality only when the music is MOR.
I think you hear the biggest improvement when all previous releases have been bad. If there's already been a decent release, it's harder to improve on it. I know that's stating the bleedin' obvious. Though maybe it's too obvious and rational - if I already own a CD I'm happy with, that's it. Other people seem to be on a perpetual sonic upgrade path. I'm only on that path for music that I love where the existing CDs sound poor.

Some "classic" albums probably sound better on cassette - it hides the inadequacies of the original master.

Cheers,
David.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #120 –
NPR story on Hi-res audio / DSD / PONO

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #122 –
Wow, $5 per song and $50 per album.  Plus, isn't DSD technically inferior to PCM given the same number of bits?
EDIT:  And isn't high res PCM and SACD-quality (and for that matter probably whatever high-res bitrate pono comes in) overkill anyway?

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #123 –
Quote from: binaryhermit on
Wow, $5 per song and $50 per album.

To be clear, though, and I suppose this is also, reluctantly, being fair to Young et al., what you cite was not in reference to PONO:
Quote
About three years ago, as most people got faster Internet connections and bigger hard drives, Marenco [as her label, Blue Coast Records] decided to make her DSD music files available for download. At the time, Marenco's customers could only play DSD on one device — a Sony PlayStation 3. Marenco charged $5 a song and $50 an album.


Quote from: binaryhermit on
Plus, isn't DSD technically inferior to PCM given the same number of bits?
EDIT:  And isn't high res PCM and SACD-quality (and for that matter probably whatever high-res bitrate pono comes in) overkill anyway?
Yes and yes. But do you think people like that will let reality stop them squeezing people dry while crowing about how they’re offering the masses liberation?

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #124 –
Quote from: binaryhermit on
Wow, $5 per song and $50 per album.
The lossless CD quality downloads are cheaper, though most cost far more than a CD. Most of the recordings are gorgeous - simple recordings of proper musicians often are. You can listen to full mp3s of everything on the site for free.

However, the one I happened to buy has clipping at 0:44...
http://bluecoastrecords.com/store/keith-gr...ake-it-rain-mqd
(track 1).

You can get a free download here...
http://sony.bluecoastrecords.com/
...but I don't find that track to be particularly wonderful.

On that page it says one disadvantage of 96kHz/24-bit FLAC is "compromise of quality for ease of use."

It's a different world - though I don't believe people like Cookie Marenco go into it to become rich.

Cheers,
David.