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"Audiophile" listening event @ Definitive Audio in Seattle, Atkinson to demonstrate "evils of MP3"
mixminus1
post Feb 7 2011, 22:45
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From the article on Stereophile.com:

QUOTE
Appearing in person and each giving presentations lasting 30-minute, will be representatives from Audio Research, Ayre Acoustics, B&W, Classé, Finite Elemente, GoldenEar, Harmonic Resolution, Linn, Meridian, Peachtree Audio, Transparent, and Wilson Audio, while Stereophile editor John Atkinson will be demonstrating the benefits of high-resolution audio and the evils of MP3, using the master files of some of his recordings.

It's this Wednesday, Feb. 9, and while I live about 25 minutes away from Definitive's Seattle showroom, I think I'll manage to avoid that wink.gif - but what am I saying! Of *course* the MP3 vs. high-rez demo will be ABX'ed...


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krabapple
post Feb 8 2011, 08:13
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QUOTE (mixminus1 @ Feb 7 2011, 16:45) *
From the article on Stereophile.com:

QUOTE
Appearing in person and each giving presentations lasting 30-minute, will be representatives from Audio Research, Ayre Acoustics, B&W, Classé, Finite Elemente, GoldenEar, Harmonic Resolution, Linn, Meridian, Peachtree Audio, Transparent, and Wilson Audio, while Stereophile editor John Atkinson will be demonstrating the benefits of high-resolution audio and the evils of MP3, using the master files of some of his recordings.

It's this Wednesday, Feb. 9, and while I live about 25 minutes away from Definitive's Seattle showroom, I think I'll manage to avoid that wink.gif - but what am I saying! Of *course* the MP3 vs. high-rez demo will be ABX'ed...



Atkinson posts here sometimes. Maybe he'll tell us what means will be used to 'demonstrate' the 'evils' of MP3.

My guess is it'll once again be along the lines of his previous 'demonstration' a la Massenburg: subtract and play the difference signal and let the listeners say OOH HOW BAD.
rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by krabapple: Feb 8 2011, 08:14
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googlebot
post Feb 8 2011, 10:06
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With the right samples it won't be too hard to make mp3 look bad.
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Kees de Visser
post Feb 8 2011, 12:05
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I find it reassuring that people still go to events to share their passion for music reproduction smile.gif
Surprisingly the invitation doesn't contain a single occurrence of the terms "analog", "vinyl", "turntable" or "tube" but plenty of "digital". Could that be a trend ?
The "demonstrating the benefits of high-resolution audio" is interesting, since a quick check of the presented monitors datasheets indicates that none of them seems to go far beyond 20kHz.
"Light hors d'oeuvres & refreshments" . . . sounds like a multisensory experience !
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dhromed
post Feb 8 2011, 12:10
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QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Feb 8 2011, 12:05) *
Could that be a trend ?


Fashion and trend is all they have.
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SamDeRe81
post Feb 8 2011, 20:04
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QUOTE (dhromed @ Feb 8 2011, 03:10) *
QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Feb 8 2011, 12:05) *
Could that be a trend ?


Fashion and trend is all they have.


I'd be more interested in his demonstration on the evils of transcoding from lossy mp3 to FLAC or mp3 to AAC LOL
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mixminus1
post Feb 8 2011, 20:47
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QUOTE (Kees de Visser @ Feb 8 2011, 03:05) *
Surprisingly the invitation doesn't contain a single occurrence of the terms "analog", "vinyl", "turntable" or "tube" but plenty of "digital". Could that be a trend ?

Mmm, perhaps, but more likely just Definitive's SOP.

AFAIK, the only brand of tubed equipment they carry is Audio Research, and while they do carry some turntables, vinyl has never really figured heavily in their demo systems.

Their "big room" is more likely to have a Levinson Reference front end hooked up to a pair of Levinson's current monster monoblocks driving a pair of Wilsons, B&Ws, or Theils, than a tube pre and low-powered SET driving a pair of horn-loaded beasts (although I see that they are carrying Magico, albeit in only one of their showrooms).

High-end home theater is a big deal for them, and that's definitely a digital world...

QUOTE
I find it reassuring that people still go to events to share their passion for music reproduction smile.gif

...and if that passion were tempered with common sense and a willingness to actually understand and learn how various technologies work, I would agree - but sadly, that rarely seems to be the case.


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googlebot
post Feb 8 2011, 22:07
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While this event might not have the best track record with regard to objectivity - this has been discussed in the past - by all means it can make sense and entertain to audition high end speaker systems. And also, while all amps above a certain (moderate) quality level should sound the same, the high end audio field has to offer beautiful engineering work and some people find delight in that. Just like sports cars with enormous engines are being sold in a country with measly speed limits of 80 mph at max. Well, it gives you an "accelerative edge" (while commuting between 30-60 mph). It's not much different when you buy uber-monoblocks to drive your 10-50000 +/- 1dB speakers with them.

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Fandango
post Feb 9 2011, 01:04
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wat, satanic messages in my MP3s?
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rohangc
post Feb 9 2011, 04:36
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QUOTE (Fandango @ Feb 8 2011, 19:04) *
wat, satanic messages in my MP3s?


Ask the RIAA. They will tell you that "MP3 = EVIL".
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M
post Feb 9 2011, 06:22
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QUOTE (rohangc @ Feb 8 2011, 22:36) *
Ask the RIAA. They will tell you that "MP3 = EVIL".


That's ridiculous. M-P-3 is three letters. E-V-I-L is four letters.

Silly R-I-A-A.

- M.
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Carledwards
post Feb 9 2011, 10:27
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Atkinson is certainly one of the last people on earth I'd choose to explain or demonstrate ANYTHING about audio. wacko.gif
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Canar
post Feb 9 2011, 11:00
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QUOTE (Carledwards @ Feb 9 2011, 01:27) *
Atkinson is certainly one of the last people on earth I'd choose to explain or demonstrate ANYTHING about audio. wacko.gif
Ad hominem is certainly one of the last things on Earth I'd like to see regarding an event such as this. If you want to disprove something he's said, go right ahead. But please play nice.


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Carledwards
post Feb 9 2011, 19:50
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QUOTE (Canar @ Feb 9 2011, 12:00) *
QUOTE (Carledwards @ Feb 9 2011, 01:27) *
Atkinson is certainly one of the last people on earth I'd choose to explain or demonstrate ANYTHING about audio. wacko.gif
Ad hominem is certainly one of the last things on Earth I'd like to see regarding an event such as this. If you want to disprove something he's said, go right ahead. But please play nice.


Mea culpa. I let my personal experience with this individual influence my post.
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Stereoeditor
post Feb 9 2011, 21:17
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QUOTE (Carledwards @ Feb 9 2011, 13:50) *
QUOTE (Canar @ Feb 9 2011, 12:00) *
QUOTE (Carledwards @ Feb 9 2011, 01:27) *
Atkinson is certainly one of the last people on earth I'd choose to explain or demonstrate ANYTHING about audio. wacko.gif
Ad hominem is certainly one of the last things on Earth I'd like to see regarding an event such as this. If you want to disprove something he's said, go right ahead. But please play nice.


Mea culpa. I let my personal experience with this individual influence my post.


I am not sure to what you are referring, Mr. Edwards, but my apologies if I have offended you.

And while my presentation in Seattle this evening will indeed not involve any ABX or forced-choice tests, I am sure that people will find it interesting.

After all, there's no substitute for personal experience. And who could object to an event that promotes the idea of listening to recordings with as high a quality as possible?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

This post has been edited by Stereoeditor: Feb 9 2011, 21:52
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greynol
post Feb 9 2011, 21:25
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I object to any presentation of lossy encoding that doesn't properly describe the mechanism by which it works and demonstrate how one goes about properly determining whether it works or does not work.

So far you have really only demonstrated to the objective-minded audio community that you are willfully ignorant of lossy encoding, unwilling to improve upon what is a clear deficiency in your presentation of the subject matter as pointed out by people who clearly know more about the subject than you do, and that you are knowingly misleading people. Personally, I find this quite shameful if not morally reprehensible.

Unless you plan on changing your behavior, John Atkinson, offering apologies for being offensive is nothing short of insincere.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 9 2011, 22:06


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db1989
post Feb 9 2011, 21:26
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QUOTE (Stereoeditor @ Feb 9 2011, 20:17) *
my presentation in Seattle this evening will indeed not involve any ABX or forced-choice tests
That's a relief. I hate those people who demand evidence for assertions!

QUOTE
After all, there's no substitute for personal experience.
Anecdotes are no substitute for objective, reproducible evidence.

QUOTE
And who could object to an even that promotes the idea of listening to recordings with as high a quality as possible?
If the superiority of such quality to other (and probably less expensive) listening setups were proven by objective means, sure!
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Stereoeditor
post Feb 9 2011, 22:18
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QUOTE (greynol @ Feb 9 2011, 15:25) *
I object to any presentation of lossy encoding that doesn't properly describe the mechanism by which it works and demonstrate how one goes about properly determining whether it works or does not work.


That's a little too much to get into a 30-minute presentation, I am afraid. But even if people are skeptical of what I might say, I still believe they will enjoy the quality of the hi-rez audio files I will be playing. I will be using a system with a total cost of <$4k, in order to emphasize that you don't need megabucks systems to appreciate the benefits.

QUOTE
So far you have really only demonstrated to the objective-minded audio community that you are willfully ignorant of lossy encoding, unwilling to improve upon what is a clear deficiency in your presentation of the subject matter as pointed out by people who clearly know more about the subject than you do, and that you are knowingly misleading people. Personally, I find this quite shameful if not morally reprehensible.


Sorry to hear that. even if you were correct, I can only use the pulpits I have available to talk about what I believe to be true. Just as you are doing here.

QUOTE
Unless you plan on changing your behavior, John Atkinson, offering apologies for being offensive is nothing short of insincere.


Sorry you feel that way. I wasn't aware that I had done anything personally to Carl Edwards, as he claimed.

John Atkinson
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greynol
post Feb 9 2011, 22:21
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I think Carl Edwards simply questions your credibility. From what I have read from you, I think he's quite justified in doing so.

30 minutes is more than enough time to present lossy encoding to the layman audio enthusiast in an honest way. Perhaps it's not enough time if you also want to satisfy your agenda convincingly which still appears to be at odds with an honest presentation.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 9 2011, 22:30


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Arnold B. Kruege...
post Feb 9 2011, 23:11
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QUOTE (Stereoeditor @ Feb 9 2011, 15:17) *
And while my presentation in Seattle this evening will indeed not involve any ABX or forced-choice tests, I am sure that people will find it interesting.


John, that might depend on whether or not you finally get around to doing some well-implemented listening tests and other demonstrations.

QUOTE
After all, there's no substitute for personal experience.


IME many personal experiences are a total waste of my time. For example, sighted evaluations of lossy decoders operating as they are typically used to do high quality distribution of audio files are a complete waste of the time of anybody with serious intents.

QUOTE
And who could object to an event that promotes the idea of listening to recordings with as high a quality as possible?


Does one have to leave the comfort of one's own home to listen to such a thing?
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db1989
post Feb 9 2011, 23:19
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 9 2011, 22:11) *
QUOTE
And who could object to an event that promotes the idea of listening to recordings with as high a quality as possible?
Does one have to leave the comfort of one's own home to listen to such a thing?
Only to visit the shops, but rest assured that you'll be sufficiently served by "a system with a total cost of <$4k", so "you don't need megabucks systems to appreciate the benefits." wink.gif
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Stereoeditor
post Feb 9 2011, 23:24
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Feb 9 2011, 17:11) *
QUOTE (Stereoeditor @ Feb 9 2011, 15:17) *

And who could object to an event that promotes the idea of listening to recordings with as high a quality as possible?


Does one have to leave the comfort of one's own home to listen to such a thing?


They do if they wish to hear the hi-rez master files of my own commercial recordings, Mr. Krueger, which is one of the two things mentioned in the promotion for the event.

If anyone from HA is going to be attending the Definitive Audio event this evening, I'd be happy to discuss anything in my presentations with them.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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greynol
post Feb 9 2011, 23:24
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Feb 9 2011, 14:19) *
Only to visit the shops, but rest assured that you'll be sufficiently served by "a system with a total cost of <$4k", so "you don't need megabucks systems to appreciate the benefits." wink.gif

Am I correct in interpreting this as a perpetuation of the unproven myth that someone needs to spend four figures in order to hear the deficiencies in lossy encoding?

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 9 2011, 23:25


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db1989
post Feb 9 2011, 23:32
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I hope it wasn't unclear that I was quoting Mr Atkinson?
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greynol
post Feb 9 2011, 23:39
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QUOTE (Stereoeditor @ Feb 9 2011, 14:24) *
They do if they wish to hear the hi-rez master files of my own commercial recordings, Mr. Krueger, which is one of the two things mentioned in the promotion for the event.

I'm sure they would be able to derive the exact same experience if our hi-re"z" master files were presented in high-bitrate lossy or properly converted to CDDA, assuming you don't first seed them with expectation bias, of course. It's already been suggested that the equipment might not capable of delivering frequencies much beyond those limited by CDDA (to say the least of the frequency response of your participants; we already know that CDDA can deliver higher frequencies than what you can personally hear, Mr. Atkinson).

What will be done to ensure that the listening environment will quiet enough so that the participants can hear anything below -96dBFS? I hope you're taking them in one at a time as to minimize audience noise. Wait, I forgot, you only have 30 minutes.

This post has been edited by greynol: Feb 9 2011, 23:47


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